Here's what I've been trying. Foaming bore cleaner 10 times. Barnes copper remover 8 times with brushing each time. Jb bore paste 100 strokes. Barnes copper remover with brushing. Foaming bore cleaner 5 more times.

This is my second day with this regiment and even though the copper is starting to thin, there is plenty more.

This is copper fouling from firing 20 rounds only from a new barrel that looks very smooth

Sounds pretty serious. At one time in the past, with some cleaners, using the copper coated cleaning brush just left another layer of copper over what was a relatively kleen barrel.

Have you tried KG solvents,using nylon brushes only?

Listen to Wink

Are you sure the barrel isn't made of copper ? !!! LOL
With all that cleaning, no wonder it is smooth.

Which foam bore cleaner were you using ?

.

What calibre and brand is the barrel???

I have never seen a barrel that had any copper or powder fouling in it after 4, 10 stroke [up and back] using a bronze brush with a cleaning patch wrapped around it. After every 10 strokes, push a couple of wet patches through the barrel, and change out the cleaning patch and apply new &B.

And this test was done with the aid of a bore scope. "Good" barrels would be clean with 20 strokes.

Sounds like something is not right???

Be sure you are not reading false copper traces from brass jags, bronze brushes, etc............................................................................ and this is another poster child for the borescope makers? But seriously, I had a barrel like that--and the borescope to prove it--it had so much copper in it I had to go out and get a united mine worker's union card and a bottle of sweet's to get it out--so I took it off and bought a good barrel...........

I'm using a nylon brush, but can only find brass jags. Between each cleaning attempt, I run an oiled patch through followed by a few dry to get the old solvent out.

I am using gunslick foaming bore cleaner and Barne's cr-10 copper remover.

I know it sounds ridiculous, or like I am exaggerating, or doing something obviously wrong, but i don't have this problem with other smaller bore rifles. It seams the bigger the bore, the longer it takes me to clean it. 375 take longer than my others, 416 takes longer than the 375

This is a very smooth chrome-moly barrel. does chrome-moly foul worse than regular barrels?

I will have to get some of that KG-12. it has good reviews and doesn't use ammonia.

I have the same problem with a premium custom C-Moly barrel as well as name brand-factory produced CM barrels.
The custom barrel is at the manufacurer as we write. Used Wipe Out multiple times after using Butch's. (Has over 200 rounds through the tube) Still badly copper fouls after 15-25 rounds.
I never use a bronze brush after using Wipe Out only a jag with a patch over it.
And don't give me this garbage about the jag leaving the blue on the patch. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE VERY LIGHT BLUE ON A PATCH FROM A BRASS JAG AND THE DARK DEEP BLUE FROM COPPER FOULING WHEN USING WIPE OUT or even leaving the Butch's in the barrel for a length of time. I can FEEL the tight/rough spots in the barrel and SEE the copper near the muzzle with a light and scope.

I find the biggest problem is chrome-moly barrels. ALL of my stainless barrels clean up much more easily.

ah ha, so the chrome moly might be the culprit. I've been contemplating getting and electric solution copper remover.

so does that wipe out work well with the chrome-moly?

I've even contemplated running a patch with graphite through the bore a few times before shooting to see if it helps reduce fouling

That's the way to go. I have a Sako AV which becomes a copper mine after 35-40 rounds. I have spent countless hours, used all kinds of chemicals with no significant result.
Foul Out III did it in a few hours.

quote:

Originally posted by gohip2000:
Here's what I've been trying. Foaming bore cleaner 10 times. Barnes copper remover 8 times with brushing each time. Jb bore paste 100 strokes. Barnes copper remover with brushing. Foaming bore cleaner 5 more times.

This is my second day with this regiment and even though the copper is starting to thin, there is plenty more.

This is copper fouling from firing 20 rounds only from a new barrel that looks very smooth

You came close to discovering the secret to removing all the copper from a bore,easily.You left out the bronze or copper brush.You need to wrap a completely,heavily, JB coated patch around the broze brush and work it back and fort for about 50 times or so.

quote:

Originally posted by gohip2000:
ah ha, so the chrome moly might be the culprit. I've been contemplating getting and electric solution copper remover.

so does that wipe out work well with the chrome-moly?

I've even contemplated running a patch with graphite through the bore a few times before shooting to see if it helps reduce fouling

Yes, the Wipe Out does work after a couple of over night runs. I've tried RemOil-ing the barrel hoping the Teflon in the oil might help. No such luck although maybe a slight amount. My next step is to take the C-M barrels and have them hand lapped by a smith. After that I don't know what. The J-B Bore paste also works good after about 30 to 40 strokes and a couple of tries. But then it's back to 15-25 shots and the elbow work.

Copper fouling is not always bad. Sometimes it smoothes out the rough spots. But on my C-M barrels the accuracy goes to hell quick when there is visible c-fouling at the muzzle. This is true for all except one in a 300WSM. It doesn't seem to mind the copper too bad for some reason or another.

Yeah...well there's foam gun cleaning products and foaming gun cleaning products and the only one that really works is WIPE-OUT OR PATCH-OUT.

Use a NYLON BRUSH AND JAG and coated rod otherwise you will be getting false color indications.

Wink is totally right. It has taken me weeks and LOTS of WO, bore scrubbing AND J-B to get years of incorrect bore cleaning in military barrels and target/varmint barrels, I THOUGHT I had cleaned properly, prior to finding WO, to get them completely "clean" down to metal. WO will even take out the "tiger stripes" usually left behind by "copper cleaners"...

I guarantee I have used or now have on my cleaning product shelf, EVERY guncleaning product that has hit the market in the past 50 years...most of it just sits there...I use WO, PO, TM, Butches(and at the most 2 of the heavy copper cleaning solutions)almost exclusively now and all the rest are slowly used on the second or third patch sopping up...and I use PO 3 to one over WO.

Luck

Yeah, it shoots great for about 5 rounds, then fouls and shoots wildly.

I don't have this problem with my other rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:


It has taken me weeks and LOTS of WO, bore scrubbing AND J-B to get years of incorrect bore cleaning in military barrels and target/varmint barrels, I THOUGHT I had cleaned properly, prior to finding WO, to get them completely "clean" down to metal. WO will even take out the "tiger stripes" usually left behind by "copper cleaners"...

Luck

This is where the Outers Foul-Out earns its money. It uses electroplating to plate the copper onto a stainless rod place in the bore. The electrolysis breaks decades of layered crude free also. The only caveate is to watch it the first time and after about 15-20 minutes pour a little solution out of the barrel to do a color check. If it is still blue, top off the barrel and run it another hour and check again. If there is any orange color inthe solution you've broken free old rust underneath the crude and you should stop there, use a bronze brush with ordinary solvent to clean out the remaining loose rust and check your bore. If you don't change the solution after it becomes infused with iron it will eventually attack the barrel steel (takes a relatively long time compared to copper but if you forget and go to bed with it running, you'll have some serious pitting in the morning. Don't ask how I know that). Otherwise just follow th edirections that come with it closely and you'll have surgically clean barrels in 4-8 hours no matter how cruddy they started out. You may have to scrub with bore cleaner between Foul-Out runs 2-3 times because the crud is in layers and alternating processes are required.

I have restored several "shot-out" gun show finds to useful accuracy this way and more than a few surplus rifles.

OTOH, I don't bother using it after that because ordinary cleaning with Wipe Out or such is plenty for routine maintenance.

What kind of bullets do you use?

quote:

Originally posted by gohip2000:
Yeah, it shoots great for about 5 rounds, then fouls and shoots wildly.

I don't have this problem with my other rifles.

Sounds to me like a perfect specimen for fire lapping. I have a 7mm Brazilian 08 that used to foul like yours. I fire lapped it and now it shoots great and cleans up very easily.

I had an original FO that I too chewed up a barrel with so I quit using it...I also have a FO-II I was given but never used and now I see there is a FO-III that uses a converter to power it...I might try that one actually.

You have to have patience to get the last of the copper out AND a barrel smooth enough to turn the "stuff" loose...it takes time...a squeeky clean barrel doesn't always shoot the best...it depends on a lot of factors. Every rifle I own has it's particularities...

I'm only interested in the first bullet out of a cold, fouled barrel and what the next two do in case I need follow-up shots. I foul the barrels of whatever rifles I will use prior to the season and leave the bores alone until the season is over, THEN I clean...I don't even oil the bores unless the rifle gets wet, then I clean good again, re-oil and refoul...and LEAVE ALONE.

Been doing it this way since God was a pup and those 50-60 year old rifles are a bit dinged up and the bluing almost gone from some areas, but the bores are good and there isn't any rust anywhere.

Don't get anal over cleaning...rust prevention is another story.

Luck

Foobar I agree with you on the rifles being particular but trying to figure some of these SOBs out is a problem.
I can honestly say that none of my stainless barrels are difficult to clean as far as copper at the muzzle or anywhere else that I can detect with my little bore scope. And the SS barrels also shoot the most consistant. They might not all be perfect sub-MOA but I can count on them shot to shot. .........so far.

1. Heavily saturated bronze brush with Sweets 7.62 or Butches Copper X 20 pull throughs.
(sometimes doesn't hurt to go one calibre up)

2. Plain dry patch on jag X 5

3. Heavily saturated bronze brush with Sweets 7.62 or Butches Copper X 20 pull throughs again.

4. Plain dry patch on jag X 5

5. Finish up with wet solvent soaked patches on a jag, until the patch comes out with no color.

6. Plain dry patch on jag X 5

7. Kroil or CLP with a patch on jag X 1

8. Finished if not shooting soon.
Plain dry patch on jag X 3 if shooting soon.

mwm

"If there's lead in the air, there's still hope."


"If you shot straight in the first place, you wouldn't need as much lead in the air to need
hope as the thing would already be dead."

500N

quote:

"If you shot straight in the first place, you wouldn't need as much lead in the air to need hope as the thing would already be dead."

I agree 100% with non-dangerous game...

If it can bite, claw, or crush me, I keep shooting till it stops moving.

quote:

Originally posted by mwm464:
500N

quote:

"If you shot straight in the first place, you wouldn't need as much lead in the air to need hope as the thing would already be dead."

I agree 100% with non-dangerous game...

If it can bite, claw, or crush me, I keep shooting till it stops moving.

Eve more so with DG - 1 well aimed shot will kill, A Buff ca still hook and toss, a Lion, Leopard can still claw and bite, even when wounded.

1 Shot in the brain puts an end to it.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by mwm464:
500N

quote:

"If you shot straight in the first place, you wouldn't need as much lead in the air to need hope as the thing would already be dead."

I agree 100% with non-dangerous game...

If it can bite, claw, or crush me, I keep shooting till it stops moving.

Eve more so with DG - 1 well aimed shot will kill, A Buff ca still hook and toss, a Lion, Leopard can still claw and bite, even when wounded.

1 Shot in the brain puts an end to it.

.

R you guys shooting a copper fouled barrel? (A.R. humor)

I have just used Patch Out & accellerator last month for the first time on a few rifles and found that the copper fouling was layered over powder fouling & so i had to alternate Patch Out & Butches Boreshine about 6 or 7 times before I stopped getting blue or black colour. Really surprised me. One SS & 3 CM barrels.

Naki...,
How many rounds through the barrel between cleanings?

I had a .375 Sako I eventually sold because of the same problem....

Fire lapping sounds like an excellent idea. KG12 in between lapping shots with a nylon brush would most likely be helpful too. You will need to let KG12 sit for 10 minutes or so in the barrel for it to work best.

Oil when your done, it's water based.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have just used Patch Out & accellerator last month for the first time on a few rifles and found that the copper fouling was layered over powder fouling & so i had to alternate Patch Out & Butches Boreshine about 6 or 7 times before I stopped getting blue or black colour. Really surprised me. One SS & 3 CM barrels.

I've always said that the copper cleaners work best when the powder has been removed
and of course to alternate between powder and copper cleaners.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
Naki...,
How many rounds through the barrel between cleanings?

The rifles are my Tikka LSA55 in 222Rem which has fires a few thousand rounds with ordinary cleaning. Probably no cleaning for the last 50 to 100 rounds. Needed 4 or 5 cycles of cleaning with BBS & Patch out.

The other rifle is my Sako L61R in 28 Ackley Imp which has also fired about 2000 rounds with normal cleaning with Butch's Boreshine - again probably 100 rounds before last clean. This was the hardest to clean though it has a Douglas premium barrel and looks very shiny with crisp rifling. Needed at least 7 cycles of cleaning.

Kimber Montana 7mm08 ss rifle - fired less than 1000 rounds and cleaned with BBS as above - last cleaning probably about 100 shots ago. Needed 4 or 5 cycles of cleaning with BBS & Patch out.

Fianlly my Simson M98 9.3X62 - fired less than 100 rounds by me and no idea how many by earlier owners in the last 100 years! Similar BBS cleaning. This rifle was easy to clean with patch out - just one application.

Naki,
Quite a few people feel a rifle should be cleaned every 15-25 rounds with 15 rounds being the more optimum. Fewer firings less layering, less build up.

I am under the assumption you don't clean until the accuracy goes bad?

the barrel is one of the smoothest I've seen, and I finally got all the copper removed and it fouled a little slower. I think they test fired it with steel jacket bullets and that is why it was so hard to remove all the original traces of fouling that I probably didn't see.
Anyways, thanks for all the help and suggestions. I will also try using a brush wrapped with a patch in the future.

This is a barrel that shoots very well with a perfectly clean barrel

Go back to the basics,
Make your self a flushing rig which is a small plastic funnel and secton of plastic tube.
boil the jug
hold the rifle with the muzzle facing down into a bucket and insert the tube into the chamber and pour the hot water through the barrel until the barrel gets hot.
then clean with a copper solvent then a nitro solvent

Heat works wonders,

horNet

agree, get the barrel hot before cleaning.
It definitely opens up the pores of the steel.

I would use a powder solvent before copper solvent but everyone is different.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
Naki,
Quite a few people feel a rifle should be cleaned every 15-25 rounds with 15 rounds being the more optimum. Fewer firings less layering, less build up.

I am under the assumption you don't clean until the accuracy goes bad?

I am a hunter and not a target shooter. Having grown up in India, my obsession with cleaning & rust prevention was really anal! In NZ, I used to clean & oil all my rifles religiously after every session at the range, even if it was just a sighting in session of 5 shots. But I found that guns did not rust so easily here and that the barrels did not need cleaning even after 50 or 100 shots. the real problem is the long term build up of layers over 5 years or so as the old cleaning methods did not remove all the layers. I have used JB in the past but have no point of reference to compare its effectiveness except to accept the word of experts.

getting copper and nitro fouling out can be a pain but a mate of mine has made a rig that gets most of it out quickly out of his rifles he uses for service target matches.

He takes a pressure cooker fills it with water takes out the safety valve at the top and replaces it with a section of rubber hose which is inserted into the chamber of a the rifle which is sitting in a gun vice with the barrel at a slight down angle so the water and muck runs out the muzzle.
he lets the steam run through the barrel for .5of an hour then pushes a patch through which removes most of the fouling, it then gets a light clean with solvent before oiling. it is great for getting rid of any build up

NOW you're understanding the problem, Rae59...each rifle is different, mucks up differently, require YOU figuring out what is required and is the BASIS for all the hoohaa surrounding "WHAT IS AND WHAT ISN'T" required to clean a rifle...and "WHAT LEVEL IS AND ISN'T" considered "fouled".

I have rifles that only require a couple PO's to get clean and several that need cleaning every 15-20 and it ISN'T always caliber specific...it's BARREL specific.

I had one of the first 17 Rems that hit the area...I bought it used and you COULDN'T see any rifling in the bore, so I got it cheap.

I use one can of WO on it totally, one overnighter every two nights for over a month. The patches for the first couple weeks came out dark purple...almost black, then slowly the color started changing until I quit cleaning and went shooting. The patches STILL came out light blue using a nylon brush, nylon cleaning rod and NO other brass/copper fittings used during cleaning.

I have a 20 gr Horn VM load that would do 5 shot 4's all day....as long as I cleaned at 15-20 rounds....if I didn't about the 22-23 round the group went into shotgun mode.

I replaced that barrel with a Shilen when the groups opened up to .75" and wouldn't go any smaller and the velocity started dropping off. I sectioned the barrel and the first ~16" or so beyond the chamber was rough as sandpaper, had copper imbedded in the cracks even after a thorough cleaning BEFORE sectioning and had hardly any rifling. All that was stabilizing the bullet was the last 8" or so of rifling and that did a pretty good job. The Shilen barrel is cleaned every 25 rounds, but I've shot 75-100 round before cleaning and before accuracy started dropping off, and it doesn't need any "fouling" shots...it will put the first round out of the clean cold barrel withing 1/2" of the second one...at 200M.

I have rifles of almost every caliber. Some require 3-6 rounds to foul after a thorough cleaning down to metal and MY accuracy level, <3/4", goes south at 15-25 rounds...some that don't much care if they are cleaned or not...some that require a WO overnighter after 200 plus shots and only one fouler...I have to keep copious notes because I get tired of a cartridge and rifle after a while and end up selling, trading, or swapping in another caliber barrel etc.

Don't get ANAL over cleaning the bore and getting "the copper out"...that is more Madison avenue salesmanship BS and scare tactics than real need...all you really have to do is figure out what YOUR specific rifle(s) requires and just do that amount and no more. You can wear out the throat and muzzle end of your barrel by too much "cleaning" as by shooting a few too many "firelapping" rounds...i.e., abrasive crap on the cleaning rod dragging on the metal parts.

I use lots of copper cleaning products...they all work but I've never tried to time one over the others. Layering of copper and powder fouling is well documented so you need a product that attacks BOTH at the same time...WO and FOIII both do a credible job...

I also use Quick Silver from Mercury and a couple of other "CARBON" cleaners available at Sinclair...these products are NASTY...you need to strip down to barrel/receiver and use an approved mask and gloves, but this stuff WILL remove built up, hard carbon...from boat/auto engines AND gun bores. I don't use these products very often now as WO will do an excellent job if used properly, but they work well on old military barrels or on "shot out" bores that just weren't cleaned right...I've obtained several very excellent shooters that way.

Luck

I agree Foobar, well written.

I have noticed every gun is different.

.

I am mostly a range shooter and take several rifles when I go. I usually run a wet patch and a couple of dry ones through each rifle after a 5 shot group is fired. If the rifle is to be set aside a while the bore is left wet. Once the rifle is put back on the bags it is wiped dry with 2 patches. The rifles are cleaned again at the range before packing up for home. They are usually cleaned again at one week intervals for a couple of weeks until crud quits growing out of the metal.
When I do get around to shooting a long string I never have the fouling talked about in these threads.

gohip--I have been using a product called RB 17. I was able to purchase it from RB Treasures.com. I haven't had any problem with it cleaning my rifles. Hopes this helps

Robert

Sweets 7.62. It is what a lot of us use for stubborn deposits in HiPower competition.

Rich