So I bought this 260 Remington used and it shot fine. It fouled with Copper though and was hard to clean. I JB'ed and cleaned it a few times and decided to try Ms. Moly in it. So I cleaned it bare as I could get it and treated it. That was 5-6 years ago.
It never has fired more then 15 shots without at least a wet and dry patch multiple cleaning with #9 and then when copper showed up, Shooters Choice. This last fall the groups were just getting worse and I decided to clean it bare after the boy got through with hunting season.
I have been using all the liquids I had since that time to depletion and just received my ISSO paste, and KG Carbon cleaner 3 days ago and now have used an entire T-Shirt recycled into patches on it. I brushed with ISSO, used dry patch until clean; not really because I had to go to bed each night and then to work the next day but sort of clean. The next night of ISSO "repeat" step on yields massive amounts of black crud that I am guess is both Moly and Carbon. Both because sure Moly is not this hard to get out! I have used 1/3 of a tube of ISSO on it doing the repeat thing.
It is cleaner and I am sure that my right arm is stronger but it is neither clean or my right arm 20 again. I have only used the KG cleaner on it two times and as directed, I don't leave it in the barrel.
I just put it to bed for the night soaking in Kroil and Auto Zone Penetration oil to see if that mix helps. It has been just straight Kroil for the last two nights. I think it would have been less taxing to have it rebarreled.
Come to think of it, I may have a 7mm-08 instead of a 260 when I am through cleaning the darned thing.
dmw

I've read that moly is the devil to get out.

It's circumstances like this when an Outer's Foul-Out pays its own way. It even works with girly-girl arms.

Iosso and JB always yield black crud as they are mild abrasives and would do the same if you rubbed them on a cloth on a piece of bare steel.

Like "Brasso" when you polish brass...

Take a look with a borescope if you have access to one.

If you are panicked about moly, try Boretech Moly Magic. Eliminator apparently works well on moly too. I shoot very little moly, so I can't say how well they work.

Is it still not shooting? Is it really not "clean"?

I have always used a good carb cleaner (Berrymans B-12)to get the carbon/moly out of my bores.

Use it outside!

quote:

Originally posted by ARWL:
Iosso and JB always yield black crud as they are mild abrasives and would do the same if you rubbed them on a cloth on a piece of bare steel.

Like "Brasso" when you polish brass...

Take a look with a borescope if you have access to one.

If you are panicked about moly, try Boretech Moly Magic. Eliminator apparently works well on moly too. I shoot very little moly, so I can't say how well they work.

Is it still not shooting? Is it really not "clean"?

True. And your eye can see minute films of steel molecules on the patch that would be immeasurable with any kind of home or gun shop measuring eqipment!

Also, the grit in the cleaning abrasive (Iosso or JB for instance) is intended to break down quickly so it doesn't actually damage the bore instead of cleaning it.

By "breaking down", they mean it decomposes to where it turns to a mud made of crushed and broken grit, the stuff abraded off the bore surface, and whatever the lubricant/carrier is. Of course, your eye can see that mush too.

You know, gun barrels are not intended to be cleaned enough to eat off of or to do brain surgery with...only clean enough to not send various shots awry and to not collect enough moisture to cause oxidation.

IMO,how a barrel shoots often depends on how you clean it.I have found that only when a barrel is cleaned bare can it be completely reliable especially at 100yds and beyond.The other day I cleaned my Lott with JB but was not that aggressive with it.It grouped extremely well at 100yds but the POI was 3 inches lower than where it was usually shooting.I then cleaned it again but this time making sure it was cleaned bare.When I returned to the range and shot it,POI was restored to normal and groups where almost as tight.I know that to shoot accurately at 200yds and beyond a barrel needs to be cleaned bare.Copper fouling,especially the one in the corner of the groove,will not only open groups but drop the POI.
You may have a barrel that shoots accurately out to 100yds with a bore that has not been clean or is clogged with copper but it will only do so for a string or two-it is not reliable.

About cleaning the moly,if you use JB you don`t need to worry about moly.Moly bullets and untreated bullets will shoot to the same place and you can shoot them mixed in the magazine or however.It is easier to clean the bore when using moly coated bullets and you can go longer without a fall off in accuracy than you can with untreated bullets.

Just a long term follow up here on the Moly and Carbon fouling project: I think it is clean. Finally I am getting normal shooting and cleaning results. I can't prove it but I do think it was Moly and carbon mixture and it was the devils own to get it back to a regular sort of rifle barrel. It still fouls too much but that is the rough barrel's fault. The black death on the patches on a normal cleaning is over.
Best regards

This thing about moly and how difficult it is to get out is all bull,IMO.Molly is removed very easily with JB.I don`t know how good solvents are at removing it but it is easily removed with JB.If you use sweets in the begininig and remove alot of the copper,then very few strokes with a bore brush and JB patch are required.If you are not after that one hole group at 200yds,you could get by without a brush.A brush speeds things up.It only takes me about 10 minutes to clean my bore completely.I here it takes days with extra strength solvent and all of the copper is still not out from the corner of the grooves.I don`t have days to clean my bore,besides if you don`t get the barrel hot it will last a very long time,IMO(if it`s a good barrel to begin with).

"Me thinks I have spoken too soon..."
Not only is the darned thing not clean, it back to being unreliable. Just spent a hour using all of the above and AutoZone Penetrating spray will still lift Moly and whatever out of the cracks of the barrel and make the patches dead black. Not a little black but dead black. I can even see it with a naked eye and light mid barrel after brushing and before patching. I Rue the day Ms. Moly went inside.
After two months of trying to talk to someone at Ruger, I found one home on Thursday. Good help must be hard to find in New Hampshire these days...as the guy tried very hard to tell me how much it would cost and how long it would take including how many emails he had to sent internally to even get the answers to the questions, to get a quote on barreling the rifle back to factory. "Roughly $400 and it could be 8 months..." to paraphrase.
I have since sent off for quotes from other sources. Whatever happened to Customer service in the gun business?
Best regards,
Fury01

What brand barrel do you have on this rifle???

It sounds like the barrel is just not too good.

I did a fairly extensive tests on barrel cleaning a few years ago, and even the worst fouled barrel did not take more than three different 10 stroke applications of J&B Bore Paste, thinned with Prolix to clean the barrel.

I was using a borescope.

Factory Ruger and I too presume it is a poor barrel. I have never seen anything stick copper like this one. I emailed, called, called, called and finally got a Ruger Technician on the line who explained that he had to send an email to somebody and that somebody had to send an email to somebody and then he might get an answer to the question "how much does it cost to have you put a new barrel on my rifle?" He was supposed to call me back. That was two weeks ago. Any here know anybody at Ruger?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
What brabd barrel do you have on this rifle???

It sounds like the barrel is just not too good.

I did a fairly extensive tests on barrel cleaning a few years ago, and even the worst fouled barrel did not take more than three different 10 stroke applications of J&B Bore Paste, thinned with Prolix to clean the barrel.

I was using a borescope.

That is simply not correct.It might depend on what caliber and bullets were used but that has not been the case in some of my barrels.
I have not used Prolix but I doubt a thinner would do much.

shootway

What do you mean by "not correct"???

The Prolix just makes the J&B a little thinner and easier, less messy, to use, much like the old Gold Medalion, and Remclean.

I meant that some copper fouling needed many more applications of JB on a patch,on a copper brush than you mentioned.

The worst fouling barrels in my test were Remington factory heavy varmint 308 barrels.

All the other barrels were premium US custom barrels or Blaser Hammer Forged barrels.

None of the Remington barrels needed more than 3 seperate 10 stroke applications of J&B Bore Paste.

I can and do accept the fact that some barrels out there, are a more serious fouler than the Remington barrels in my test.

The ONLY way to know if you have totally cleaned your barrel 100% clean, is to use a quality bore scope to check out your results.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The worst fouling barrels in my test were Remington factory heavy varmint 308 barrels.

All the other barrels were premium US custom barrels or Blaser Hammer Forged barrels.

None of the Remington barrels needed more than 3 seperate 10 stroke applications of J&B Bore Paste.

I can and do accept the fact that some barrels out there, are a more serious fouler than the Remington barrels in my test.

The ONLY way to know if you have totally cleaned your barrel 100% clean, is to use a quality bore scope to check out your results.

308`s are not heavy foulers like the magnum cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The worst fouling barrels in my test were Remington factory heavy varmint 308 barrels.

All the other barrels were premium US custom barrels or Blaser Hammer Forged barrels.

None of the Remington barrels needed more than 3 seperate 10 stroke applications of J&B Bore Paste.

I can and do accept the fact that some barrels out there, are a more serious fouler than the Remington barrels in my test.

The ONLY way to know if you have totally cleaned your barrel 100% clean, is to use a quality bore scope to check out your results.

308`s are not heavy foulers like the magnum cartridges.

I agree, everything being equal a 300 Mag does foul more than a 308.

However, I have a couple of good quality 300 Mag barrels that foul less than many factory 308 barrels I have used. Confirmed by a borescope.

Another thing that will clean a barrel out is shooting paper patched bullets, but that's a bitch in it's own. Pain in the ass to roll them, seat them properly, etc. But they will clean and polish a barrel.

Moly removal IS hard work. Seemed to me that mechanical contact with JB worked better that all the solvents I tried put together. Steve

To remove moly from a barrel, soak and clean once with M98. Wet the bore thoroughly with M98, stand the rifle overnight with the muzzle down on a folded cloth and swab out the next morning (or evening or leave it for a couple of days, if time is a problem.) M98 is inert towards steel and any composition of steel so, it does not remove rust or bluing.

What I have never been able to figure out is why would anyone want to remove moly from a barrel...

As the Original poster: the carbon and moly combined into something that was a problem. Layer copper into that because I could not get the Carbon and Moly out and I have a problem that caused even the moderate accuracy of the barrel to leave me.
I would guess that Moly in a super fine barrel would be of not problem as you infer. Just not the case in this barrel. As they say, "your mileage may vary."

Moly is never found alone-it is mixed with copper and carbon so removing it requires JB on a brush on a patch.You can get some out by using a solvent alone but not all of it.It is easy to get out and once it is out, it is out.
It is not an issue if you have it in the bore and you want to shoot uncoated bullets over it.I once shot 50 300wm rds out of my rifle and was not pleased with the accuracy of the ammo,I then immediately susbituted another brand of ammo(with incoated bullets) which I knew shot well and POI and accuracy returned without a fouler round.I have done this with other rifles too with the same results.

I've run tens of thousands of moly bullets through various match rifles for 20 years or so. It's the carbon that's hard to get out, not moly - and either comes out nicely after some JB/RemClean, etc.

Ditch the KG carbon stuff! It didn't work nearly as well for me as this stuff: http://www.shooters-choice.com...a-clean-bore-cleaner

HTH

Mark

It is amazing to see how many guys still use two or more cleaners to get the job done instead of just one cleaner. To some, the cost of cleaning a rifle must be quite something.

There are two things I have learned to avoid: Ammonia and abrasive compounds. Both will erode any steel surface and leaving it in the bore 'for only a couple of minutes' at a time does not change that. Contact with steel starts the erosion process and five two minute sessions will do as much damage as one 10 minute session.