Is anyone using a 'lube pack' behind a jacketed bullet? By 'lube pack' I mean a lubed wad or lube wad sandwich. I have tried several 'systems' with my hornet, most of which kept the bore clean and bright and lubed. I have settled on a paper cup type seat soaked in 'waxy-lube’, which is a mixture of candle wax and bullet lube. The paper is hand towel and I actually use this to seat bullets without sizing the neck. Another method I have tried is a tight fitting cardboard wad with waxy-lube on top and the bullet seated while hot (giving enough time for the excess waxy-lube to escape - the neck was sized to just take the bullet with finger pressure). I don't need to clean the bore and have suffered no corrosion (I did monitor the bore when it was not being used).

But what are you trying to accomplish?
Sounds more trouble than the odd cleaning.

Considering my minimal cleaning regime is one slurp with Hoppies No.9 & patch out before shooting.

And that many claim/know they need to shoot some rounds to get accuracy after cleaning.

And do copper coated bullets need lube . . . where even moly is doubtful.

And where BPCR's often are patched with ONLY paper.

So, how's the accuracy compared to clean bullets/barrel??

Well, in the case of the hornet, it started out when I lost my new set of loading dies before I ever had a chance to start reloading again. So I attempted to load without resizing. I eventually found a neat way by using a paper hand towel cup for seating and my 'waxy-lube' to glue the bullet firmly in place. With this arrangement and the use of Lil'Gun and R-P cases, I managed to get pretty respectable performance levels. (I eventually found an accurate load too). I also found the bore stayed clean and rust free, even in cool damp conditions. Accuracy levels are not spectacularly better than 'normal' but are not worse either. I did find I was able to stabilize 55gr BT's and 60gr spire points. Bullet runout is pretty good and case life is like, fore-ever. The wider case mouth allows me to headspace on the mouth, which prevents case elongation. With the hornet, chamber pressure is considerably lower. I have a theory that case neck 'tension' is more consistent because there isn't any.

I just had to try the same with the 303 Brit. It works OK but bullet grip does not allow for magazine use. I do like the idea of lubing the bore on firing like a 22lr so I tried a lube sandwich. I have not tried it well enough to say that it affects accuracy in any way.

In the end, it is just me having fun!

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Considering my minimal cleaning regime is one slurp with Hoppies No.9 & patch out before shooting.

This was/still is my routine! (Except for the hornet). I used to soften the Hoppe's with another slurp before patching out. Is that unnecessary?

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Originally posted by 303Guy:
I have a theory that case neck 'tension' is more consistent because there isn't any.

That could make sense. . . I'll have to sleep on it.

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In the end, it is just me having fun!

I predict a sticky end for you.

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I used to soften the Hoppe's with another slurp before patching out. Is that unnecessary?

Sounds like a good idea to me, I get some goop out, but you may get more.

In Phil Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading" he discusses just such experiments in no less than the .220 Swift, as well as formulae and methods of application (I'd quote you chapter and verse, but my copy is not at hand.) Apparently people including Harvey Donaldson achieved performance improvements with lube "cookies" (in both precision and reduction of powder and metal fouling)and the experiments with the Swift indicated that barrel life could be extended, as well.

Hot weather is a problem for many of us (lubricant migration) although not insoluble (i.e. solid ALOX) and uniform application is problematic - but the idea has always fascinated me and I hope to try it eventually.

If you go first, please post your findings, good or bad. Good Luck!

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just such experiments in no less than the .220 Swift, as well as formulae and methods of application

Thank you!! I would really appreciate the quote if you could. Someone did mention such a finding of extended barrel life. I am toying with the idea of building a '220 303/Swift' using an old 22lr barrel (which seems to be better than low carbon steel, but...) so this might be just the ticket and I would of course tailor the neck long enough to 'house' such a 'cookie'. The lube I use at the moment is a mix of alox and candle wax and I apply it molten. I plan on using the same lube with 'groove-less' cast bullets in my 303Brit. I have fired a few such cast rounds and had no sign of leading. (I tested some 32 pistol bullets as well - they were rather super-sonic, by the 'crack').

One experiment I did with the hornet was to seat a wad and compress the charge simultaneously and to that end I made a neck sizer/wad seater die. This devise sized the neck immediately behind the wad so as to keep it in place. It worked but no better than my paper cup trick and it had the disadvantage of 'gluing' the wad to the base of the bullet, which I thought, might introduce a possible inconsistency if the wad came off in flight. I did not pursue that one because it gave my higher pressure. (I could have just reduced the powder charge).

Only a passing interest here, but;

Seems a bit back to front to me. IE most people want to lube the bullet in some way.
Your bullet is going first, the lube next, and the powder torching the lube into goop, and wouldn't the powder being last still leave burnt bits in the barrel??

Hey, I'm all for experiments. . . as long as someone else does them.

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Originally posted by 303Guy:
... I also found the bore stayed clean ...

The last thing JAL needs to hear is about shooting a rifle and not needing to clean it.

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... wouldn't the powder being last still leave burnt bits in the barrel??

Yes it does. The idea is that the bore remains lubed for the next shot. There is nothing we can do about the powder residue. But copper fowling seems to disappear and maybe, just maybe the lube helps keep pressure down and give a 'slight' velocity gain. Not that the actual velocity really matters. In fact, it is probably better not to know the velocity. Could cause sleep loss!

Actually, loading lubed rounds is a tedious process. I just do it for fun. Now I am hoping there is some actual benefit!

In reality 'though, the hornet is probably the only cartridge siutable or ideal for this practice. But then I seat the bullet in a paper cup which is soaked in waxy-lube. That holds the bullet very firmly in the case and under hornet recoil (and I use the word 'recoil' loosely), the bullet does not get moved.

Oh, Hot Core, not needing to clean and not cleaning isn't the same thing.

(There is, of course, no way I would put by shiny, mint condition 303 bore away without a swab of bore protectant. The hornet, on the other hand, already had a bad bore so I didn't mind experimenting. I was planning on rebarelling it so was just experimenting with it. Now it seems to shoot so well, I am going to leave it as is).

By the way, is anybody else using 'Rapid-Tap' as a gun cleaner and rust protectant?

I should explain, we are upside down here at the bottom of the planet and this causes the blood to flow into our heads which makes us do crazy things!

ThreeO, Hot Core wants you to try this new Otis ceramic stuff. You get to squirt this stuff all over, and will fix your hornet bore.

Come to think of it, JAL would be doing "ALL OF US" a big favor by buying a new pristine spotless(after he cleans out the Proof Load Residue) rifle, plus one of his old ones and apply the Snak..., make that Otis Ceramic stuff in both and give us a Report.

What is this 'Otis Ceramic stuff'?

Beats me, but the latest U.S. RifleShooter has an ad showing 3 tubes of goop. Goes on the bullet tips, you shoot 'em. this cramic fusion crud embeds into the bore and your barrel lasts um, "measured in centuries" it says.

Any test I did would be inconclusive. I found that out with Microlon engine additive.

Supposed to be able to drive a car for hours with out oil. In my aircraft, it was going to increase my airspeed, lower my oil pressure, boost my morale and get me home if all the oil disapeared. Well nothing seemed to happen, good or bad.

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... and get me home if all the oil disapeared. Well nothing seemed to happen ....

Hah! You did the tests wrong! You are supposed to drain all the oil out of your engine before take off to see any difference!

In his book "Yours Truly, Harvey Donaldson" Mr. D tells of his younger days shooting muzzle loaded bullet, single shot black powder cartridge rifles. False muzzle. It was standard practice to both hold the powder in the case since the bullet was loaded from the muzzle by using a "wax wad" in the mouth of the case, and of providing some lubrication.

He gives a couple formulas. Best seemed to function around "Japan Wax" whatever that is/means. Mr. Brown, eabco.com, had made up some of this material for making wads at one time.

Mr. D also claimed to have one of the first .220 Swifts on a Win mdl 54 bolt action. He made his own bullets with dies he made. He was a machinist. And using a wax wad under the bullet he claimed to have fired 10,000 rounds thru this rifle and still have acceptable accuracy. Didn't say what "acceptable" meant to him... I had to wonder. In a note, Mr. Huntington, Fred (SR) said to me that there was nothing that Mr. Donaldson liked to talk about as much as Mr. Donaldson... luck.