Well it looks like I've gone full circle in regards to gun cleaning products. Started out using Hoppe's #9 and a little Sweets. Then went to Shooter's Choice. Later got caught up in all of the hype and started using the "non-ammonia" products (Wipe 0ut, BoreTech, etc.) Found I still had to leave alot of this stuff in the barrel overnight to get copper/carbon out.
Now I have re-realized I can do the same with the old reliables like Shooter's Choice and Butch's. Plug the barrel, fill it with Butch's or S.C. and let set overnight. Next day pour it out, brush and patch it and a little brake cleaner........ barrel clean.

Was just wondering if anyone else has made the circle?

Made the circle.
But now I'm starting to use Frog Lube and REALLY like it.

Use the Iosso Bore Paste and the Iosso Brushes. I use that to get the bore pristine before I shoot a match or do load work...

The bore scope does not lie..

quote:

Was just wondering if anyone else has made the circle?

No.

Using just one isn't the best, you have to use a few in steps and a couple or more products to get the job done right.

1. Shooter's Choice wet patches till powder fouling is gone and patch is clean

2. Bronze Brush with SC for at least 10 strokes

3. Wipe Out or Foaming Bore Cleaner till copper is removed

3. About every 200 rounds, JB Non-Embedding Bore Compound on a patch wrapped around a worn out for caliber bronze brush worked "short stroke" from barrel end to end till your arm is worn out to remove Carbon.

The fouling, copper and carbon layer so when you think that you have gotten all of the copper there is really more under a layer of other material. A bore scope shows this very clearly.

I have posted my method before and it works----as mentioned above you use several tools if you will. For me=Sweets, Hydrogen Peroxide, Butches and Iosso Paste.

rcamulia

I agree in some ways, every so often it is good to use something different, especially on those stubborn deposits.

Maybe it is the chemical make up of some components that come out easier with one type of cleaner than another.

.

I agree that you need something to clean the carbon out, and then attack the copper. Years ago I used to use the Shooters Choice copper remover and it worked well. It can give you a headache from the ammonia though.

I am currently using WO, BTE, CU+2, and C4 (carbon remover)

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
I agree that you need something to clean the carbon out, and then attack the copper. Years ago I used to use the Shooters Choice copper remover and it worked well. It can give you a headache from the ammonia though.

I am currently using WO, BTE, CU+2, and C4 (carbon remover)

Absolutely, you need to get the carbon out first. I have found on really stubborn copper, in between trying to get the copper out, giving the once through to take out any carbon also helps.

I have made here in Australia our own Carbon Remover, it's a heap cheaper than Hoppe's and does the job so the gun shops like it.

.

I have found the conventional solvents do a good job if allowed to work for a spell..like overnight. Just like the Wipe Out.

About a 2 years ago I spoke to a techy at Kr.... barrel about some fouling issues I had with a barrel. He told me that (at that time) they pretty much used Butch's Bore Shine for ALL of their cleaning needs. I asked them about Wipe Out and he told me that they heard good things about it, but hadn't used any as of that time. He said Butch's would take care of the cleaning. Note: They also have a bore scope. A video bore scope.

Just had a Lilja barrel put on a rifle. So I went to their website to read up on "barrel break in". Dan Lilja says they prefer Butch's. He also says to NOT use any of the abrasive paste on a regular basis. Says it's OK every 500 rounds or so but not too often. They also have a bore scope. A video bore scope.

Don't get me wrong, I still like the Wipe Out products but as I stated, AFTER I get the powder fouling out and what ever else with the Shooter's Choice or Butch's and I forgot to mention Kroil (used first), I plug the barrel, pour in the Butch's, let soak over night, and ALL is gone. No more copper, no more carbon etc.
Gun's go back to shooting good again.
As they say; "There is more than one way to skin a cat".

Rae---love Butches and use it quite a bit for fouling before I use Sweets but it does not get out the carbon ring..

For those of you that are interested you might read this:

Proper Barrel Break-in
ensures long Barrel Life

Proper barrel break-in procedures are crucial for top accuracy and performance. More barrels are damaged by cleaning rods than by any amount of regular shooting a person may do. If not done correctly, one can do more harm than good.

The barrel break-in technique we endorse, is the “Speedy Method” named after Speedy Gonzalez, owner of S.G.& Y Rifles. Speedy is well known in Benchrest disciplines; national champion, world record holder, and Hall of Fame inductee in the National Benchrest Shooters Association (NBRSA). He has given permission to share with you, his expert advice on the correct method of barrel break-in and cleaning.


Rifle Cleaning the Right Way
Barrel break-in. Many of our customers upon taking delivery of their new rifle or barrel are in a quandary as how to go about breaking in their rifle for maximum life and accuracy. With so much written in magazines these days stating use this, don’t use that, brush, don’t brush...what’s a person to do?? At S.G.& Y. Rifles, we have a unique opportunity to inspect many rifle barrels on a daily basis with our video borescope. Consequently, we see the results of a variety of barrel break-in and cleaning procedures, and most of them leave the rifle owners with their mouth agape when they see the fruits of their misinformed labor on our color monitor. We have seen practically new barrels ruined with less than a hundred rounds shot through them by some of the crazy and sometimes humorous barrel break-in methods. Anyway here goes for what it’s worth.

A. Bore guides- If you don’t have one, get one! Without a good bore guide you are just wasting your time trying to break-in a barrel or cleaning it for that matter. More rifle barrels are destroyed by cleaning without a bore guide than by shooting! There are many types and brands of bore guides available on the market and range in price from $5.00 to $50.00. The only one we recommend is the Lucas two-piece bore guide. They are the best insurance you can buy for that new barrel. All other bore guides in my opinion are only good for keeping the solvents out of the trigger and action.


B. Solvents - We recommend Sweets 7.62 for copper and a *solvent mix of our own (Actually Pat McMillan gave me this formula) for powder fouling and for cleaning/storing your rifle for the next match or season. This Speedy Formula is made as follows:

Mix 2/3 rds. Hoppes No. 9 Plus Black Powder solvent with 1/3rd. Regular Hoppes No. 9 Nitro solvent. Let this mixture set overnight and it will form a sort of gel that adheres very well to the brush and cuts powder fouling to a minimum.

* Note: Butches Boreshine may be substituted for this Speedy formula.


C. Procedure for “Break-in” - Before firing that first shot, clean the barrel as if it had been shot by following these simple steps.

Step 1. Insert Lucas bore guide into receiver and chamber. If you don’t have one stop here and get one, if not, just shoot your rifle and forget trying to take any care of your barrel at all. If you do have one, proceed, and give yourself one “At-A-Boy” for being astute enough to have purchased the proper tools for the job.

Note: One “Aw-Sh*t” wipes out ALL “At-A-Boys”.

Step 2. Run one wet patch of Sweets through the bore and let soak for approximately 30 seconds. Do not patch this out.

Step 3. Next, run the brush through the barrel only enough to expose the entire brush. Yes, I know that you still have 12 more inches of cleaning rod you could push out the end of your barrel but we want to protect that new crown. Also, if that rod hangs out that far, you will eventually start wearing down the rifling at the crown from about 4 to 7 o’clock. This is very bad “JU-JU” for accuracy. OK, back to our next step. Once the brush is exposed, saturate it well with our Speedy Formula or Butch’s Boreshine and SLOWLY run the brush through the barrel 10 complete back and forth passes while keeping the rod as straight as possible. This is when the Lucas bore guide really pays for itself! Remember, the key word is slowly. We are not trying to break any land speed records today. Let this sit a minute or two and proceed to the next step.

Step 4. After you have let the barrel soak for a few moments, saturate a patch with the Speedy Formula or Butch’s Boreshine and pass it through the bore. Follow this with 2 dry patches and then dry the chamber with Brake Kleen or lighter fluid. Next, gently wipe the crown off with a soft cloth and lube your bolt (lets not gall the lugs just yet). Now, your ready to shoot your first shot. Then follow the schedule below to complete your barrel break-in.

1. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 1 shot.

2. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 5 shots.

3. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 shots.

4. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 to 15 shots and clean again.


D. Additional Barrel Break-in and Cleaning Tips -

1. Each time you clean you may also follow the last dry patch with a patch soaked with LOCK-EEZ. This is a graphite powder suspended in a quick evaporating carrier that coats the bore slightly before passing that first round through a completely dry bore.

2. We are always asked about powder fouling and how to remove it. The only product that we have seen that really does a good job on powder fouling, especially on the carbon ring that forms just ahead of where the neck ends in the chamber, is IOSSO Bore Paste. This is used with a Pro-Shot nylon bristle brush and worked slowly in the neck and throat areas, then slowly down the entire bore. Follow this up with a few wet patches, then dry the bore as usual, and your ready to shoot.



E. Follow the outline above for your regular cleaning program and I promise that your rifle barrels will deliver their greatest accuracy and life without a lot of grief and hours of wondering if they are clean.

Good Shooting,

Speedy Gonzalez

BossHoss, if I am reading Speedy's break in procedure correctly, he says to shoot ONE 1 shot clean, etc. then shoot 5 shots clean,etc., 10 shots clean, etc., etc. Sorry man but that is NOT what either of the two fore-mentioned barrel manufactures say to do. I am a firm believer in "trying it their way first"!
Both say to shoot single shots and clean a minumum of 10 shots with Kr... saying, I believe, to shoot as many as 20 single shots/clean in a chrome-moly barrel.
Again both say that Butch's or comparable will do all that is necessary and one says to NOT use the abrasive paste too often.
Not me saying that but they,the barrel makers.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
BossHoss, if I am reading Speedy's break in procedure correctly, he says to shoot ONE 1 shot clean, etc. then shoot 5 shots clean,etc., 10 shots clean, etc., etc. Sorry man but that is NOT what either of the two fore-mentioned barrel manufactures say to do. I am a firm believer in "trying it their way first"!
Both say to shoot single shots and clean a minumum of 10 shots with Kr... saying, I believe, to shoot as many as 20 single shots/clean in a chrome-moly barrel.
Again both say that Butch's or comparable will do all that is necessary and one says to NOT use the abrasive paste too often.
Not me saying that but they,the barrel makers.

Ok---you have to do what you think is best. Remember that if Krieger for example recommended that the use of JB Paste is good for cleaning fouling THEN there would be the idiots who do not know how to use the product properly damage the bore and come crying to them to pay for a replacement. You must be relatively new to the cleaning game but the use of Iosso paste does not harm the barrel in any way but you have to use it correctly and that means the use of a proper bore guide as well.

Iosso is not an abrasive. I have used it for many years and seen many others esp at matches use it and my bore scope does not lie. Break in---you do as you see fit. Just remember that the barrel manufactures cater to the general public if you know what I am getting at.

Good Luck.

Well Boss Hoss, I am not new to the cleaning game just new to some of hundreds of products and processes that are out there. I have the major talked about stuff though.
(never cared to buy a sample of each) I too have Iosso as well as JB and Flitz and have used them. But still have found that soaking the barrel does the same. Just takes a little longer but is a little less work. The results are the improvement in accuracy to much acceptable levels. By the way it wasn't Krieger who wrote to use the paste sparingly, it was Dan Lilja. I doubt he would intentially send a customer down the wrong path. As you yourself stated; He would not want a customer to come crying to him either for barrel replacement.
By the way, I believe his statement was directed towards the purchasers/users of "his" barrels.
I plan on asking the guys at Krieger what they think is a good cleaning process........step by step.
I am sure their bore scope doesn't lie either.

If you take issue with Lilja's comments on the paste, then I suggest you contact him and hash it out. Let me know the results of your communications as I would be rather curious as to what he tells you.

If you have to actually buy all the wonder chemicals in order to go off chasing your tail in that circle, I never went on it. I was given and still get various chemicals at Xmas and birthdays and etc..but only buy my old favorites.

I did go off on a tangent, buying a borescope so that I actually could tell when the bore is clean (and for other uses) and added Shooter's choice Aqua clean to my cleaning routine.

Another opinion concerning barrel "break-in"

How should I break-in my new Shilen barrel?
Break-in procedures are as diverse as cleaning techniques. Shilen, Inc. introduced a break-in procedure mostly because customers seemed to think that we should have one. By and large, we don't think breaking-in a new barrel is a big deal. All our stainless steel barrels have been hand lapped as part of their production, as well as any chrome moly barrel we install. Hand lapping a barrel polishes the interior of the barrel and eliminates sharp edges or burrs that could cause jacket deformity. This, in fact, is what you are doing when you break-in a new barrel through firing and cleaning.
Here is our standard recommendation: Clean after each shot for the first 5 shots. The remainder of the break-in is to clean every 5 shots for the next 50 shots. During this time, don't just shoot bullets down the barrel during this 50 shot procedure. This is a great time to begin load development. Zero the scope over the first 5 shots, and start shooting for accuracy with 5-shot groups for the next 50 shots. Same thing applies to fire forming cases for improved or wildcat cartridges. Just firing rounds down a barrel to form brass without any regard to their accuracy is a mistake. It is a waste of time and barrel life.

Amamnn,
As per Lilja's own article, the reason for the barrel break in is not for the bore portion but rather for the throat area where someone other than the barrel maker has left some sharp edges during the chambering process.

You make a very good point about not wasting bullets and powder during the break-in process.

Just my 2 cents worth but I have gone to Barrett's heavy bore cleaner. After you get the bore clean, they even recommend that you run a soaked patch through the bore and leave it. It isn't supposed to contain ammonia and I have had very good luck with it. It does require a little more elbow grease. You run the first 5 patches through, then let the next one sit for 5 minutes before another one and so on. But it works very well. For a badly fouled barrel(coppered up) it may take quite a few patches but it is user friendly.

Just finished cleaning my custom Shilen barrelled Husqvarna in .270Wby last night. She is squeaky clean now. Used Bore Tech Carbon Remover, then an overnight soak with WO. Then a few patches of BBS just to check for copper. None!

Attack the carbon first, then go after the copper.

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
Just finished cleaning my custom Shilen barrelled Husqvarna in .270Wby last night. She is squeaky clean now. Used Bore Tech Carbon Remover, then an overnight soak with WO. Then a few patches of BBS just to check for copper. None!

Attack the carbon first, then go after the copper.

Ian

Have always believed in getting the Carbon out first, I think it has a big effect on helping remove the copper.

Were you using Wipe Out - the Foam or Patch out
the liquid ?

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

Ian

Have always believed in getting the Carbon out first, I think it has a big effect on helping remove the copper.

Were you using Wipe Out - the Foam or Patch out
the liquid ?

.

Hi 500N,

I am using the foam version of Wipeout. For sure, once the carbon is out it is so much easier for WO to do its job on the copper.

This is going to be my procedure from now on.

Saves time, and also patches

Thanks.

Sometimes after the foam has become a blue liquid, it is useful to "foam it up again" using a NYLON Brush - Note the NYLON !!!

Especially if you are going to just leave it overnight as of course it collects in the bottom of the barrel.

.

Kroil and Hoppes #9 for me. About a 50/50 mix. Works well enough for my needs and accuracy (1moa or less).

Of late, I've been out of Kroil. So I just ran a soaked patch a couple times through the bore...wait 30 seconds and push a bronze brush through about 5-7 passes. As soon as I feel the brush run smooth, I stop with the brush. 8-10 patches with #9 and the patches run close enough to clean that I don't care. That's no green on the patch, no black fouling, and just a hair of discoloration on the patch where the edges folded.

Two dry patches and put the rifle away. Maybe 15 minutes per gun.

I do this about every 60-80 rounds. Or three trips to the range.

Maybe I'm doing it right...maybe not. But I have no delusions of grandeur here: My rifles print 1" or better (*for hunting purposes) and there's no rust on the rifles.

I call that "good enough".

Strange, I never got any better results with Butch's, Choice, Copper Cutter or Wipeout.

I obviously must be doing something wrong...

I know I don't have good sense. Otherwise I wouldn't stick even my toe in a debate where everyone has strongly held opinions.



So, just some observations which cover my meagre 60+ years of shooting, which included about 30 years of various, successful, kinds of competition, ranging from 1,000-yard jacketed score competition to short range cast bullet benchrest.

So, here goes.

1. Barrel Break-in: Never did a lick of it formally, not even once. Lack of it never semed to keep my barrels from being capable of match-winning accuracy, let alone adequate hunting accuracy. Also didn't keep them from cleaning easily.

2. Cleaning: Quit looking once I found a reliable way to remove powder fouling and any excessive copper fouling.

For me, that was ANY good powder solvent (Hoppe's #9, Shooter's Choice, or any one of several other "Nitro Solvents" on the market) applied with a good stiff bristle brush and patched out, to remove the powder fouling.

To remove excessive brass from the bore, either Sweet's, or WO foam did that fine.

After removing powder and excessive copper or brass from the bore, I'd apply a single thin coat of a light neutral oil to protect the bore 'til the next trip to the range or field.

3. So, how clean was really important to my rifle(s) performing "good enough" for competition or game purposes either one?

Well, it sure didn't require removing all the lead, or copper or brass fouling from the bore of any of them.

The cleaning described just above this was plenty adequate for both hunting and for winning matches.

What was more important was spending any available time and money SHOOTING under conditions similar to those that I wanted the rifle to be successful in. I think many folks call that "practice". It always seemed to ace-out any other single investment at producing success for me.

Okay, back under my rock.

Have fun...and please understand I am not criticizing your views. Just trying to remind you what the end goal of all this cleaning really is...not cleanliness for its own sake, but "good enough" accuracy from your rifles.

Or isn't it?

AC

Gun cleaning preferences rank right up their with religion and politics on things never to discuss.



Heck, I still like CLP.