After reading lots of internet posts about this stuff I decided to give it a try on my Douglas XX Air Gaged 6mm Remington that had exactly 50-rounds fired through it prior to this non-scientific yet practical experiment.

I cleaned the rifle barrel exactly per the instructions included in the kit. I applied the Dyna Bore Coat, 4-days ago, exactly per the directions in the kit, though I will say that I have found conflicting instructions on other forums by someone named Extreme-something-or-other that seems to be the distributor of the product. Nevertheless, I followed the instructions found in the kit, to the letter.

Today, I went and fired 10-rounds to cure the product, again after finding conflicting information for the actual number of rounds required to cure the product - I had ten factory rounds laying around so I shot them.

I haven't cleaned to barrel just yet, but there is copper in it! Supposedly this is to be expected at this stage.

I will keep you posted on the progress and my final analysis...

2 wet patches of 50/50 Shooters Choice & Kroil to push the crud out and let it soak for 5-minutes. Then 2-dry patches on a brass jag to push the Shooter’s Choice / Kroil out.

Then, 2 dripping wet patches of Bore Tech Eliminator and let it soak for 10-minutes followed by 2-more dripping wet patches and then 2 dry patches on a bras jag.

Copper still in there…

2-more dripping wet patches of Bore Tech Eliminator and 10-minute soak then 2 dry patches.

2 wet patches of 50/50 Shooters Choice & Kroil then 2-dry patches on a brass jag to push the Shooter’s Choice / Kroil out.

Copper still in there, but less of it…

2-more dripping wet patches of Bore Tech Eliminator and a 10-minute soak then 2-more dripping patches followed by 2 dry patches.

1 tiny speck of copper left!

2 wet patches of Bore Tech Eliminator and 2 dry patches and its clean.

More patches than the manufacturer says it will take and I can’t say that it was any faster to clean, but it is the first time I ever got a barrel clean without using a brush! Could be just a nice barrel that cleans easy?

Thursday I will be working up the first loads – I will post another cleaning report then.

I am about the most skeptical person you will ever meet and no one will ever convince me that some chemical suspended in solution is going to penetrate solid steel and actually stay there after a 6mm bullet comes sliding by at 3,000 FPS with a 2,000 degree fireball behind it, but this is my attempt to be as fair as possible and post the results as they are.

With 60 rounds down the tube. It sounds just like a good barrel starting to settle in like it should. Try the borecoating on a known fouler and see how that works.
I sure would hate to put some thing like that in a good custom barrel myself.
How was the accuracy of it before / after ?

According to the manufacturer you should NOT use a 'bronze brush' after application of Dyna Bore Coat, because it will remove the stuff! How a bullet going 3,000 FPS is any less abrasive than a bore brush escapes me. Nevertheless, I am guessing that if a bore brush will remove it, a few strokes of JB will definitely remove it, if there is, in fact, anything actually there, and then I'll just break it in again...

Unless it's battery acid, I'm guessing it can't really hurt the barrel because I doubt the manufacturer would want lots of angry people with ruined barrels suing him...

All my other rifles have Schneider polygon barrels on them, and they don't foul! :-D

I am definitely NOT putting the stuff in one of those barrels.

So what is this stuff ? The latest "mouse milk" to hit the market ? A properly made barrel does not have to be treated with anything and should never be cleaned unless there is a consistant loss of group size.
Seems like everyone has forgotten how moly coated bullets were going to be the end all product but now have almost vanished from the market.
I don't a bronze brush and never will. Nor any of the harsh "copper removing" solvents. I also switch from lead to gilding metal to all copper bullets with impunity.
A squirt of wipeout, 2 patches, a squirt of brake cleaner, 1 patch is all it takes to "cure" a rifle that was shooting sub MOA and has opened up a bit. If it's going in storage it gets a wet Kroil patch and is stored muzzle down.
I think is was old George Herter who coined the phrase "mouse milk" and it's as applicable now as it was back when first said.
"More barrels are ruined by cleaning than shooting."

Makes one wonder how a 32-40 Pope Ballard rifle held the 10 shot 200 yard Benchrest record until well into the 20th century. With black powder, cast bullets and no mouse milk.

My two cents: Time spent "dosing barrels" could be better spent producing top grade ammo and sending it downrange.

Well, without naming the long-established highly respected company I purchased this stuff from, I spoke with them today, and they will refund the full cost of the product if I am unhappy with it, for whatever reason, and they don't even want you to ship it back!

They mentioned something about the latest product that promises miracles like so many others over the last 30-years...

I think it is snake oil, but I wanted to know for myself.

I have a hard time believing any product is going to remain in a barrel after a bullet comes by at 3000 FPS with a 2000-degree fireball behind it, but a bronze bore brush will remove it...

I've got a Kimber Select Grade in 7mm Rem that I was struggleing with. It wasn't exactly a bad shooter and showed some promise but results were mixed. After a few range sessions a pattern emerged; namely that if I scrubbed it down to bare metal I could count on 2 great groups, and maybe a third before fliers opened some of the groups. With a cleaning rod and my copper solvent at the range it would keep shooting forever. Establishing that was some real progress although not thrilling. Even less thrilling when I'm a charter member of the almost never clean camp.

Shortly after that I was telling a shooting acquaintance about it. He recounted a similar tale, his with a custom rifle barrel that started great and quickly copper fouled to the point that accuracy was ruined.Another 2 group wonder. He had had UBC suggested to him and it was the cure.

Hearing that, I ordered some and treated the barrel. The first session was 14 shots and it was shooting as well at the end as the beginning. Cleaned that out and shot it again with equally encourageing results the next time. Next time was around 30 shots and it just kept shooting. Cleaning was easy that time, and I haven't cleaned it since. Still going strong with little bitty cloverleafs at 100 and most groups around an inch at 200. In my opinion UBC saved that barrel, because I know I wouldn't have put up with it much longer.Really like the rifle now.

Since I had lots left I tried it in some other rifles. A couple were fair shooters that didn't foul heavily, and they are still just that; fair shooters that didn't foul. I'm reluctant to put it in great shooting custom barrels because I don't see what I'm supposed to gain.

A next to new Weatherby .300 shot well clean or dirty but built a coppermine that didn't seem to hurt anything for up to a box at a time. Now with UBC it still shoots great but is easy to clean. No more coppermine, and I'll quit cleaning it until it pukes.

I can't say that it is going to improve a good shooting smooth barrel. Whats to improve?
I can say that if you happen to stumble onto a 2 group wonder it might be worth a try. I can think of some barrels that got sent down the load that I would have liked to try it in.

I used DBC in a muzzleloader and it was a lot easier to load and clean. Good stuff for the right application

I just need someone to explain to me, with verifiable facts and proof, how any chemical suspended in a liquid, can bond to, and remain bonded to, a steel rifle barrel after a jacketed bullet comes sliding by at 3,000 FPS with a 2,000-degree fireball behind it, yet a bronze bore brush can remove the stuff...

It just doesn't add up.

If it can be removed with a bronze bore brush, it's a coating, not a physical/chemical change. The fireball alone will destroy the coating, unless its something from the planet Krypton.

In my humble opinion...

Where does it say that a brass brush will remove the stuff? I don't have the instructions close by but my thoughts are that if you use copper solvent and brass brushes together you're going to be chasing blue patches for a long time.

From the directions:

"After shooting your newly coated firearm, clean the bore with solvent and patches only. You will notice you will not have to clean as often. If you feel you must use a brush, we recommend a nylon brush."

My recollection is that their videos (on their website) are a little more emphatic about nylon only.

It just doesn't make sense -- I do not believe any manually applied 'coating' can withstand what happens inside a rifle barrel.

Scientific, verifiable, proof, is what I need to believe it. If it is factually provable and their product is patented, they should have nothing to fear by providing the science, and the proof.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
Where does it say that a brass brush will remove the stuff? I don't have the instructions close by but my thoughts are that if you use copper solvent and brass brushes together you're going to be chasing blue patches for a long time.

I don't see that saying that it takes the coating out. Most any copper solvent would also say to not use a brass brush, and I just don't see them caring about someone else's coating.

There is no coating after the first shot. I'd ask you to think about and liquid, applied at room temp. that will dry and be so hard that repeated charges of hot smokeless following a supersonic bullet would not destroy it.

The only PROVEN process that changes a barrel so that it lasts far longer is Nitriding and you don't do that at home.
No claims are made for it fixing a bad barrel, all it does is increase barrel life 3-5 times.

A good barrel with good ammo and a capable shooter will shoot MOA or better for several 100 rounds or more.
A friend has an ancient 722 222 Rem that belonged to an anal Uncle who kept notebooks recording every shot.
The round count is approaching 25,000 and it still shoots bug holes with BL-C2 and 53 gr Sierra benchresters.

A barrel that is rough, has a changing bore size, and a marginal crown may shoot a few good groups but then will be so fouled that all the magic elixers and brushes have to be brought out to restore it its original sub standard state.

There is a reason a top quality benrchrest barrel costs a ton more than a new one from Remington for your 700 ..... it has nothing to do with being dosed with mouse milk.

If you need to use nasty chemicals and wire brushes to get your rifle to shoot a few decent groups, you have a problem beyond mouse milk's curative powers. Few of us can afford a professional bore scope but many good gunsmiths have them. That's step one.

I have a simple rule. Any bolt action rifle that will not shoot five Federal Gold Medal Match (or equal quality handloads) into one inch at TWO hundred yards gets sent down the road. This assumes good bedding, properly installed quality optics and a good nut behind the bolt.

There are too many good inexpensive bolt guns (Savage and Marlin for example) that with a little tuning will meet that standard day in and day out. So why beat your head against a wall when relief is a few 100 bucks away ?

All I wanted to do was try it for myself...

I thought that perhaps the package might contain some information to back up their claims - it doesn't. I knew there was a money back guarantee from the dealer I purchased it from so I gave it a try.

They either back it up with scientific verifiable fact, or it's snake oil.

I don't like snake-oil or the people that sell it - it's Un-American and completely contrary to The Founder's understanding of Free Market Capitalism.

PS. I've had some Remington rifles that really did shoot sub 1/2-minute groups, and not just once! They had work done to them, but had factory barrels...

Quick Karl,

Did the Dyna Bore Coat help or not? If it did help the rifle shoot better, does it matter if you understand how it works? If it did not help, you are back where you started.

You are a pretty politician, you went all around your statement, but you did not answer the question. Did it help or not?

Politician my ***

Are you a rep for the company?

quote:

Originally posted by impala#03:
You are a pretty politician, you went all around your statement, but you did not answer the question. Did it help or not?

Here's a thought; if you want a rep from the company or test results from the company why don't you contact the company?

Nope, not a rep for anyone. Just asking, did it help or not.

I'm doing my civic duty is why.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
Here's a thought; if you want a rep from the company or test results from the company why don't you contact the company?

What does your civic duty entail, exactly?

If I have unknowingly offended you with this thread, I can assure you unequivocally, it was not my intention to do so.

I've gotten a full refund. I don't believe it does a lick of anything, at all.

Silicon Nitride Ceramic Nanoparticles - I don't believe it, not for a second. I don't believe you can coat the inside of a barrel with some liquid and it can withstand the heat and friction.

End of argument.

it has very definitely helped a couple of my rifles. My understanding is that the ceramic particles in suspension in the solution are glued onto the surface of the bore(thus the several hour curing time). Then when you shoot the "curing shots" you are embedding them into the surface of the metal and filling many of the very small imperfections in the surface.
I do know that my old M99 savage had a salt and pepper bore that was a horrible fouler. I treated it with UBC and while it's still not great, it's easily usable now.
I've seen a thread somewhere that the mfg. answers the question about the brass brush. The guy said the brush won't hurt the product at all, but many times when using a brush people see copper in the bore left from friction of the brass brush and attribute it to copper fouling from the bullet. The warning about not using the brass brush was to keep from having to answer the same question over and over again.

HA HA HA HA HA!!! This thread is a pile of $hit!

+10 Butch !

"There's a sucker born every minute" (David Hannum)

What ever happened to moly coating ?

Can anyone name any shooting sport that is dominated by people who use mouse milk in/on their barrels or bullets ?

As Norman said: "Bovine Excrement."

My Dad used to talk about urinating on their 30 and 50 caliber machine guns during the Battle of the Bulge to "unfreeze" them. Wonder if accuracy was improved as well ? Maybe if we bottle our pee and put a fancy label
on it, it could be sold to these suckers. Just be sure to eat lots of Asparagus first to get the proper color and smell ! Nice to find some humor on a generally serious site.

Shot it again today... 80-rounds.

Fouled like a mother-*****r. I don't believe I've ever seen that much copper in a barrel - sincerely. Had to crack out the JB to get it out.

All I can report is what I observe...

I thought you had decided that it was impossible for the DBC to remain in the barrel? That must mean the barrel is crap?

So lemme see:

To the OP:

1. you buy a high quality barrel
2. you have never told us your loads, bullets or groups.
3. you don't seem to realize that all barrels get a "copper wash" in them and, while technically it is fouling, it doesn't mean a thing.

Until we hear some load data, groups and close up borescope photos of this massive fouling, it's hard to offer any suggestions.

Perhaps step one would be to call Douglas ????

So lemme see... you're an asshole?

The bore treatment has nothing to do with groups or load data, bozo.

Go somewhere else and be an ass.

quote:

Originally posted by pigmaster:
So lemme see:

To the OP:

1. you buy a high quality barrel
2. you have never told us your loads, bullets or groups.
3. you don't seem to realize that all barrels get a "copper wash" in them and, while technically it is fouling, it doesn't mean a thing.

Until we hear some load data, groups and close up borescope photos of this massive fouling, it's hard to offer any suggestions.

Perhaps step one would be to call Douglas ????

Actually I wondered if it caused it to foul more than had I not used it...

I'm pretty sure it's outta there now though!

The point is, for the few other participants that seem incapable of comprehending anything unless it is spelled out for them like in kindergarten (not you) I never believed the bs in the first place, but wanted to see and smell the stuff for myself, and doubt it can ruin a barrel so tried it.

I got my money back! It's snake oil.

I sent an email to the distributor requesting scientific proof that the stuff does what they claim it does -- he wrote back nicely that I should write the manufacturer...

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I thought you had decided that it was impossible for the DBC to remain in the barrel? That must mean the barrel is crap?

The real point is:

A Douglas premium air gauge barrel should not foul at all to speak of. Real, performance affecting fouling, not the normal copper wash.

No loading data

No groups

Really not much of anything beside a waste of bandwidth.

Well I'll be sure to get your approval before I post in the future so you don't have to waste anymore bandwidth.

My commentary on fouling was meant to exaggerate the fact that the bore treatment didn't do shit to reduce fouling.

My barrel is just fine and grouping nicely though I haven't found the magic load just yet.

quote:

Originally posted by pigmaster:
The real point is:

A Douglas premium air gauge barrel should not foul at all to speak of. Real, performance affecting fouling, not the normal copper wash.

No loading data

No groups

Really not much of anything beside a waste of bandwidth.

So the bottom line is you really never had a problem to begin with ..... correct ?

You have a fine barrel that will shoot bugholes if you work up the right load and are a good rifleman....... correct ?

So in summary, you were curious about a product that has no generally held acceptance in the shooting community nor any rigorous test results from independent labs to support the marker's claims.

You need not be sarcastic because I pointed out the obvious. My apology if I offended you.

I suppose "fouling" is different things to different people.
In almost 60 years of shooting, I have yet to meet a barrel from a quality maker that ever required extrordinary efforts to clean. IME fouling issues are usually related to the powder, not the bullet (talking jacketed modern rifle bullets). My 244 H&H and 22-06 that love H869 and nothing else need a powder fouling soak out at 25 or so rounds as it's a "dirty" powder. Powders like 3031, 4895, 4064 and 4350 may run 100 or more rounds in a quality 270 or 06' as they are cleaner.

IMHO you never had a real fouling problem in the sense of chunks of bullet jacket build up in the bore, just the normal copper wash any centerfire shooting jacketed bullets does.

I don't know what you seek in a "magic load" but if you have a 1 in 10 twist, put a 95 gr Sierra MatchKing over 41-45 gr of H4350 and you should be seeing one hole groups.

Good shooting !

Correct.

Correct - but my eyes aren't what they used to be so those .200" groups are getting harder to come by.

Correct - Free market capitalism, as conceived by The Founders, consists of a free-price system where supply and demand is allowed to reach equilibrium without intervention by the government, AND without fraud or economic manipulation and economic slavery by business owners. Also Inherent in the concept of Free Market Capitalism is a Justice system will rigorously defend against fraud by unscrupulous business enterprises AND politicians – like the Stock Market, for instance, or AIG, Fanny Mae & Freddy Mac, Enron, HealthSouth, WorldCom, MCI, 401K’s, Dyna Bore Coat, etc. etc. etc. – I could go on for days. I'm on a mission from whomever or whatever created everything we can perceive and that we call The Universe! Some people call it God, some call it Karma...

Accepted and given -- caustic comments have become too common on the internet - another mission I am on... But at least you can type comprehendible content that consist of more than a few words strewn together in hillbilly-like fashion, like some famous gun-forum troll...

It really wasn't that hard to clean - I just think DBC's BS about reducing fouling deserved a comment equivalent to their claims. No chunks of bullet jacket!

I have a 9-twist barrel that I'd like to shoot Sierra 100 SBT's with - I have a few loads so far with Varget and H414 that aren't too bad - I usually use only 210M primers but tried regular 210's so I'll have to try the loads again with the 210M's. I've also loaded up a batch 100g SBT / RL19 / 210M, so we'll see how that does. If I can get consistent .500" groups I'll be happy.

Just for grins here is the best group I ever shot out of my AR15 (different topic I know) - has a Schneider 7-twist polygon barrel. I know, one damned flyer... That one would have been in the .100's if I didn't screw it up!

quote:

Originally posted by pigmaster:
So the bottom line is you really never had a problem to begin with ..... correct ?

You have a fine barrel that will shoot bugholes if you work up the right load and are a good rifleman....... correct ?

So in summary, you were curious about a product that has no generally held acceptance in the shooting community nor any rigorous test results from independent labs to support the marker's claims.

You need not be sarcastic because I pointed out the obvious. My apology if I offended you.

I suppose "fouling" is different things to different people.
In almost 60 years of shooting, I have yet to meet a barrel from a quality maker that ever required extrordinary efforts to clean. IME fouling issues are usually related to the powder, not the bullet (talking jacketed modern rifle bullets). My 244 H&H and 22-06 that love H869 and nothing else need a powder fouling soak out at 25 or so rounds as it's a "dirty" powder. Powders like 3031, 4895, 4064 and 4350 may run 100 or more rounds in a quality 270 or 06' as they are cleaner.

IMHO you never had a real fouling problem in the sense of chunks of bullet jacket build up in the bore, just the normal copper wash any centerfire shooting jacketed bullets does.

I don't know what you seek in a "magic load" but if you have a 1 in 10 twist, put a 95 gr Sierra MatchKing over 41-45 gr of H4350 and you should be seeing one hole groups.

Good shooting !

The intent for dbc was for rifles with rough barrel ie tooling marks that copper foul after 9 shots and takes you two days of cleaning. Once you treated the barrel with dbc it's supposed to help this they don't claim to help accuracy just help stop copper fouling. I have read good and bad fella by the handle of mule deer on 24hour swears by it. I have model 70 in 325 I have been tempted to try this on but figured I spent to much on this copper fouling monster and will just rebarrel it.

Have yet to see a Douglas air gauged barrel with a rough bore.

I own 50+ military and sporting rifles ranging from 1903 to 2012, none have "rough bores". I have had rifles with bores that had corrosive primer or moisture damage. No "mouse milk" would have fixed any of them. Fire lapping did. I recall one 03A3 that was so nasty that by the time the lapping was done, the neck had to be opened up a tad as it needed .311 bullets. With those, and its original iron sights it would shoot nice round 2.5" groups @100 which is all one can expect from almost all 03A3s. It didn't foul anymore or less than any bone stock minty 03A3.

I'd still like to hear from an experienced Bench Rest or High Power competitor with a shelf full of trophies, that endorses any of these "too good to be true" bore coating products.

In my world, a squirt of wipe out followed in 20 minutes by a couple of patches, repeat with dirty ball powders, then a big flush of brake cleaner and two more patches make a rifle ready to hunt or punch paper.
If going into storage the bore and chamber get a Kroil saturated mop and stored muzzle down.

But if some stuff makes you think your rifle will shoot better, then it may ....... never discount the power of suggestion.

I presume everyone here knows Mule Deer is actually John Barsness?