I've been reading through the posts here on AR and have a question....after the barrel has been cleaned and a patch is run through the barrel with oil on it do I need to remove the oil before I shoot or leave the oil in the barrel?

Well, like many things, that depends.....unless you're using a really sopping patch, I don't think it would make any difference, but if you've got the time, I would run a dry patch thru it one time, mostly to remove any dust, or whatever that might have accumulated. If I'm hunting, I never shoot clean barrels but that's me.

I am pretty good about getting my guns 99% clean, but spending an extra hour getting that last bit of copper or fouling out is not on my list of favorite activities. Personally, unless I'm going to hunt it right away, in which case I'd just very lightly oil it before firing some fouling/scope checking shots, I run a medium wet patch of Hoppe's #9 thru and leave it in there. While very mild, it will scare the fire out of you if you let it sit for a week or two and look down the barrel......it will usually look like a mold colony is growing. Again, I usually patch it out before shooting.

I always run a patch down the barrel just to be sure that I'm safe.
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Arkapigdiesel:
....after the barrel has been cleaned and a patch is run through the barrel with oil on it do I need to remove the oil before I shoot or leave the oil in the barrel?

I follow that last "oiled patch" with a couple of dry Patches to remove any excess and stick it in the Safe. Then it is almost ready to go afield.

I still look through the Bore before sticking a Cartridge in the firearm just to make sure no Pine Needles, bugs or sand have gotten into the barrel, tape the muzzle and then load up.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Arkapigdiesel:
After the barrel has been cleaned and a patch is run through the barrel with oil on it do I need to remove the oil before I shoot or leave the oil in the barrel?

I like to lube the barrel with Tetra lube according to directions, then run a dry patch through to remove remaining oil.

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

"If I'm hunting, I never shoot clean barrels but that's me.

I am pretty good about getting my guns 99% clean, but spending an extra hour getting that last bit of copper or fouling out is not on my list of favorite activities."


On these two points it's ME too!

A guy who hunted with a friend of mine on our property missed a deer at about 150 yards last week. We went to the shooting range at the property, and he was hitting just fine. I asked him what condition his bore was in when he fired the shot at that deer--it took some talking to actually explain and figure this out!

Well, he had cleaned his barrel "really good" and then oiled it. I had him do the same thing and then fire a cold bore shot. Almost 5" high at 100 yards. More than enough for a miss at 150. The 2nd shot was near the desired POI. Shot 3 even closer, and shots 4 thru 10 (last one we fired) were right on point! Another experience supporting why I think it's best to hunt with a few foulers down the bore.

A lot of us who are serious enough to be here on AR probably know exactly what our rifles will do with their bores in whichever specific condition that they are, but the point is, you need to know! If it's a question at all, why not shoot your rifle a few more times first--always good to be shooting!

Oil does not compress. Trying to push it out with a bullet is not the best thing for your barrel. Wet oil is also a dirt magnet, so you may have more than simply lube to worry about.

I say definitely, dry patch it out before you shoot.

1 dry patch down the barrel, wipe the chamber with a mop, and make sure there is no oil on the bolt face. (if there is you over oiled the barrel when cleaning)
Personally I feel the first shot burns the oil out of the barrel, but it does affect the POI if the bore is damp. It doesn`t hurt as others have stated in any case to insure no dirt, bugs, ect are there to scratch the bore or hinder the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Arkapigdiesel:
I've been reading through the posts here on AR and have a question....after the barrel has been cleaned and a patch is run through the barrel with oil on it do I need to remove the oil before I shoot or leave the oil in the barrel?

It is best to remove all foreign substances from a bore before firing. A very light oil may not cause dangerous peressure spikes, but it sure isn't going to HELP anything. In addition, a good, friction-reducing oil in the chamber WILL increase case backthrust on the ffae of the bolt. Whereas this probably won't cause the locking lugs to shear off, the lugs are not intended to have to take this overload every time you shoot.

Some preservative like Birchwood-Casey SHEATH will protect your bore from rust or corrosion, but it is a microscopically thin film that quickly dries in the grain of the metal, leaving nothing on the surface of the metal at all to interfere with the passage of the bullet next time you fire.

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

Some preservative like Birchwood-Casey SHEATH will protect your bore from rust or corrosion, but it is a microscopically thin film that quickly dries in the grain of the metal, leaving nothing on the surface of the metal at all to interfere with the passage of the bullet next time you fire.

Now that's good intel El Deguello, thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

Some preservative like Birchwood-Casey SHEATH will protect your bore from rust or corrosion, but it is a microscopically thin film that quickly dries in the grain of the metal, leaving nothing on the surface of the metal at all to interfere with the passage of the bullet next time you fire.

Now that's good intel El Deguello, thanks!

Yes, I used SHEATH for three years in Alaska on blued guns and never had any rust or corrosion on or in them. In addition, I use it now for muzzleloaders, and don't even have to wipe out the bores before loading up a clean gun.....

quote:

Originally posted by Arkapigdiesel:
.... friction-reducing oil in the chamber WILL increase case backthrust on the face of the bolt. Whereas this probably won't cause the locking lugs to shear off, the lugs are not intended to have to take this overload every time you shoot.....

This is an interesting viewpoint - one I hear often. If you think about it, why would a gun designer design a gun that is not intended to bear the full thrust of the cartridge on the lugs? But an oily chamber and/or barrel is not a good thing. It can cause excess pressure! Some form of friction reduction in a chamber is good for bolt face shock load reduction. In the same way, a thin film of oil left in the barrel will increase the velocity of the first shot, so unless there is some means of replacing that lubricant, the next shot will be different. I used to lubricate my bullets for my hornet which eliminated the need for any bore cleaning but I have changed powder and the new powder requires a firm case neck grip on the bullet, so now I have to clean my bore. (The lube was carried by a paper patch on the bullet).

Rifle designers never take the reduction of backthrust due to case friction into account in designing actions, because it's unpredictable and may not be there at all. Most shooters are not going to give a thought to carefully wiping out the oil from the chamber before shooting, and a lubricated case or chamber wall will let the case slide back, delivering nearly full thrust. A neck sized case that's already fire formed to the chamber will likewise apply full thrust, because the case head is already against the breech face, not driven some distance (headspace) forward and coming back against the tensile resistance of the brass as the case binds against the chamber wall. Dan Lilja has an article on his site explaining these factors, and says that designers normally allow a minimum 2:1 safety margin for the maximum thrust to be encountered (presumably that of proof loads), not taking any case friction into account. Manufacturers would be foolish to sell any gun that requires a dry chamber and cartridge to fire safely.

quote:

Originally posted by Ricochet:
Manufacturers would be foolish to sell any gun that requires a dry chamber and cartridge to fire safely.

And it's just as stupid to fire it that way on purpose. It does matter.

Unlike the American trade, The British standardized their rifle cartridges in base crusher guns that measured thrust (for example, the standard pressure of 14 tons for the .470 was determined from the compression of a copper pellet between the case head and breech face), not chamber pressure (where the crusher is in the chamber sidewall), and standard pressure (thrust) for each cartridge was developed firing oiled cartridges. Rifle proof was conducted with overpressure cartridges fired in dry chambers. In recent years when rifles are proved or re-proved there, and high pressure proof ammunition is not available (which it sometimes isn't for some of the older British cartridges), the British proof houses will sometimes conduct proof by simply oiling a standard cartridge instead. Primer extrusion is said to be volcanic when this is done.

Firing a rifle with oil in the chamber can only increase thrust negating safety margin established by proof. Not a very smart thing to do.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Whether it's "stupid" to knowingly fire a gun with an oiled chamber or cartridge is a matter of argument. On the basis of reduced case friction, it reduces a margin of safety that by design is adequate without the case friction.

The British proof houses may well have used oiled cartridges for proof testing. That doesn't mean that it's the best way to test for gun safety. And I see no way that the cartridge case sliding back freely in the chamber (which does increase breech face thrust) would produce "volcanic primer extrusion," whatever that means. As the primer cup independently moves in or out of the case head, extrusion of the cup brass around the firing pin (which is what I think you mean) would reflect actual differences in chamber pressure, not in case head thrust.

Anybody know what SAAMI's proof test procedure is, so far as whether it specifically addresses dryness of the chamber walls and cartridge cases?

At any rate, I stand by what I said. Any gun maker who sells a gun that requires dry ammunition and chamber walls to shoot safely is foolish. It's foreseeable that in common usage this precaution will often not be observed, and designing a gun to such flimsy margins would be regarded as reckless by reasonable people.

Don't overlook what I said about neck sized cases. Or any situation where the full headspace is taken up by the cartridge case. The reduction in force when the case binds frictionally against the chamber wall depends on the case head being slightly away from the breech face and being pushed back, resisted by the tensile strength of the brass. If it's already firmly against the breech face, there is little expansion of the brass and little tensile stress developed in the case wall. Essentially full pressure is applied to the breech face.

An oiled case fitting loosely in a chamber can be driven forward by the firing pin, then slide back to slam into the breech face, applying a shock load to the breech support system in addition to the pressure in the chamber.

These are all typical situations encountered in shooting, and a safe gun design has to work safely in all of them.

Wiping the chamber and cases dry is a good idea to add an extra margin of safety. I'm not arguing against that.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
..... the British proof houses will sometimes conduct proof by simply oiling a standard cartridge instead. Primer extrusion is said to be volcanic when this is done.

Firing a rifle with oil in the chamber can only increase thrust negating safety margin established by proof.....

I have heard of that. I have an idea that the oil applied is quite liberal and that it either obstructs the bullet, causing high pressure build up or it gets injected into the combustion chamber like a diesel injector, where it detonates, resulting in high pressure.

However, a lightly lubed case will show lower pressure signs than a dry one in a dry chamber. This is only because the case has settled firmly onto the breach face before peak pressures are reached as opposed to the case gripping the chamber walls and staying there until close to peak pressure when the case lets go or stretches, striking the bolt face with some suddenness - the primer will have backed out and then gets reseated, giving it the appearance of high pressure. A lightly lubed case does not eliminate case grip but allows the case to elastically stretch over its length. There is another aspect of lubed cases - it prevents case head separation and prolongs case life. This is because the case stretches over a longer length, keeping within the elastic limit of the brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Ricochet:
Wiping the chamber and cases dry is a good idea to add an extra margin of safety. I'm not arguing against that.

No, it isn't "extra". It preserves the safety margin established by proof. Other than that point, it's the only sensible thing you've said.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I don't think you've been paying attention.

quote:

Originally posted by Ricochet:
I don't think you've been paying attention.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Ricochet:
......
An oiled case fitting loosely in a chamber can be driven forward by the firing pin, then slide back to slam into the breech face, applying a shock load to the breech support system in addition to the pressure in the chamber.......

Absolutely! But I suspect that a dry case that grips the chamber walls will produce more shock load to the bolt face, simply because the pressure is higher when it does move back. But it will move back! It has to. There is simply no way that brass or the brass to steel friction, can support that kind of pressure! For example of bolt face thrust, the 303 Brit is rated at 19.5 Tons per square inch. That translates into something like 2 tons of thrust against the bolt face. And then to give some idea of the strength of an action, I know of a 270 that had a 308 cartridge fired in it. The receiver ring split and let the barrel go down range but the bolt suffered no damage. Another 270 survived intact with the same treatment. Then there was the rifle that was loaded with double base pistol powder. The shooter brought the shattered bits of rifle into the gunshop. He was intact! (Somehow)?

My understanding of the British proof houses is that a system of case base copper crusher was used and that the cartridge was oiled to produce consistent and accurate bolt face load results, by eliminating a variable.

Perhaps someone has more information on this?

quote:

Originally posted by Arkapigdiesel:
..... do I need to remove the oil before I shoot or leave the oil in the barrel?

To answer your question, yes you do need to remove the oil. Three things can happen:
Firstly, a lubed bore will increase muzzle velocity for the first shot.
Second, an oily bore could cause drag on the bullet raising pressures dangerously.
Third, the bullet could 'iron' the oil into the bore, damaging it.

I agree 100%. My first oily shots ( even if I dry patch it out ) always print higher, 1-2 inches on 100 yards. Out of frustration I have adopted using a patch wetted with Brake Clean followed by a tight dry patch. I don't use bore guide for this operation because the chamber also gets cleaned by swirling the patch around.
Probably any grease/oil cutter would work, wich doesn't contain chlorine.

An old benchrester (Skip Otto) told me to clean the rifle then run an oily patch through the bore followed by ONE dry patch. His reasoning was the first shot needs lubed as do the others but after the first shot the graphite in the gunpowder lubes the next shots. Works for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
An old benchrester (Skip Otto) told me to clean the rifle then run an oily patch through the bore followed by ONE dry patch. His reasoning was the first shot needs lubed as do the others but after the first shot the graphite in the gunpowder lubes the next shots. Works for me.

The late Skip Otto was correct when he pointed out that the burnt powder left graphite as a lube for the subsequent shots. There is a product that leaves this very thing in the bore after cleaning. You will see lots of BR shooters use it at matches. Lock-Ease is the name of it. Its collodial graphite suspended in kerosene and is available at your local hardware store and NAPA I've heard, it's designed to unfreeze locks. Four drops on a patch is all thats needed, so a single bottle is a lifetime supply for the average shooter. Once the kerosene has evaporated, all thats left in the bore is the graphite. I guarantee that you will be impressed with first shot accuracy, nothing else even comes close. Try it, you'll like it...

I never leave the bore on ANY rifle I own oiled.

If am going to lay it away for a long time and then I grease the bore using a specialised product such as A J Parker's long named "Anti Corrosive Semi-Liquid Preserving Grease".

When I was in charge of an armoury with over one hundred rifles we did oil the bores, that was how it was ordered, but I think that the practice is mistaken. Why?

Because it is easier to see rust or other problems developing in a dry bore than a bore that has been oiled. And because you don't have to clean out the oil everytime you want to inspect the bores you inspect them more often. Which is a good thing.

The rifles would be fired with corrosive primers, cleaned and oiled. If they were not properly cleaned the oil layer would mask the beginning of corrosion which, of course, was taking place UNDER the oil layer.

quote:

My understanding of the British proof houses is that a system of case base copper crusher was used and that the cartridge was oiled to produce consistent and accurate bolt face load results, by eliminating a variable.

It was done to produce more thrust on the bolt bearings, yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Arkapigdiesel:
I've been reading through the posts here on AR and have a question....after the barrel has been cleaned and a patch is run through the barrel with oil on it do I need to remove the oil before I shoot or leave the oil in the barrel?

I store all of my rifles with a generous amount of bore oil. I saturate the oil patches heavily before I run them through the bore. I prefer a heavy coat of oil b/c IMO it protects the metal better.

Before I shoot the rifle, I'll take one dry patch and push it through, then another. Then I drive to to the range and push a final patch with brake cleaner or similar. Then shoot.

I've never had any problems. But I did read somewhere years ago, I believe on Hart Barrels website, that you should never shoot a rifle that still has ANY solvent, oil, etc. in the bore.

I've heard that oil left in the barrel will burn and increase carbon fouling..makes sense to me. Anyone else heard this?

Jimno

Run a patch through it and fire about 3 rounds if possible, otherwise it WILL shot high on the first shot of two in probably 90% of rifles. Test your gun and see what it does...