Gentlemen,
I am wondering if there is a massive advantage in cleaning after every shooting session, as opposed to when the accuracy starts to go, or just prior to extended storage? I guess I am wondering if a rifle can be cleaned too much? I am definitely not guilty of that charge, but am curious. My grandpa rarely, if ever cleaned his guns, and still managed to shoot a pile of deer. I clean more than that, but am wondering. Thanks.
Good shooting,
Graham

OK. I guess it depends on what you call cleaning. I think it's mostly common sense.

If you've had your sweaty hands on the blue, that would warrent a wipe over as far as I'm concerned. If it was all S.S. well, different matter isn't it.

If your talking barrels, much the same thing.
After a shooting session could be once a week or during a multi-day target event. Again, blued or S.S.? How many shots, how long before the next outing?

If at least overnight, even if it hadn't been fired, would it break your arm to run one patch of Hoppies No.9 in the barrel, and patch it out before the next shoot?

This type of continual minor soaking can work on any crud left in there, and protect from rust for a while, and takes about 5 minutes all up.

So, I reckon it depends on this and that.
Mind you, I've seen many second hand good quality guns with rust inside and outside, and virtually unsaleable.

I agree in that more bores are ruined with a cleaning rod on the throat or gougeing the lands than by shooting...

I only use a Boresnake during the hunting season and most of the year with about two real good shop cleanings during the year.

You certainly can over clean a rifle barrel, it need not be squeeky clean and that kind of clean can be counter productive to accruacy and POI...With the Boresnake I never get a change in POI, with a good cleaning I usually need two of 10 fouling shots..

I also have a 30-06 that I never clean, if I do it goes from a 1/2" gun to a 3 or 4 inch gun until I shoot 75 to a 100 rounds through it...so I have not cleaned it now for about 10 years and it still shoots 1/2 inch..Ocassionally I will run a dry boresnake through it to ease my soul...

If you soak in the history, there were two schools. Those who cleaned often and faithfully and had reliable guns 'CAUSE the black powder and primers were corrosive! Those who did not might find themselves at a big disadvantage when they needed the gun and it failed for crud and rust. Alledgedly, Colt nickle plated the single actions, some, for the government to issue to Native American Army Indian Scouts who flatly refused to clean a gun. Pray over it, decorate it, but no cleaning... -??- Not the white/European way. Helped some.

Today we enjoy much less NEED. Primers and powder and not corosive per say. All we need concern ourselves with is deposits.

If you are the "shoots good, goes bang" type that collects a deer or two at less than 50 yards each year (with or without a license) and with modern ammunition, the occassional cleaning is pretty optional.

If you are trying to put them all in one hole at 200 meters... then anything you can do to promote consistency should help. Removing deposits falls into this catagory. Unfortunately, you cannot remove barrel wear. That is what makes contests. Managing all you can manage and luck with what you cannot. luck

I would add that I think some calibers require a little more cleaning than others. My CZ 550 in 416 Rigby gets cruddy really fast. But my Kreiger barreled 404 Jeffery doesn't.

If you use an active foam like WipeOut you don't have to worry to much about over cleaning, at least from the point of view of barrel wear due to brushing or rod scrapping

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I agree in that more bores are ruined with a cleaning rod on the throat or gougeing the lands than by shooting...

So with this statement, repeated like a nursery ryme, I'm wondering if all this damage happens to all and everyone, using a good clean rod and a soft patch and depending on something like heaps of Hoppies No 9 rather than valve grinding paste on an old drill bit or something.

And are these rods, used say once evey evening , and couple with a dry patch before shooting, doing all this damage within a week, month or what?

I know full-bore shooters clean every shoot if not during the day, and they get their "thousands" of shots before they retire the barrel. So how many shots does the average hunter go thru?

quote:

You certainly can over clean a rifle barrel,

Well, sure. But, I notice bench rest and full-bore shooters clean often, and the latter seem to then hoe straight into their two sighters
(often bulls) and then expect to win.
I don't doubt B.R. shooters often get their best group on their sighter targets also.

And many is the new rifle tests I've read of that puts up a good group with a brand new barrel.

So, if you get a barrel nearly back to bare metal, and then if it shoots OK, has it been over cleaned, or just cleaned over. or has that one cleaning actually damaged the barrel?

No wonder shootaway goes through 'em.

quote:

I also have a 30-06 that I never clean, if I do it goes from a 1/2" gun to a 3 or 4 inch gun until I shoot 75 to a 100 rounds through it.

Boy that one's a keeper, though the barrel must be stuffed, probably from a lack of cleaning in the first place, once its plated in metal,fouling, dirt/dust and all the pitting and frosting ect. filled up, she's a goer.

On the other hand, with match low grade ammo, my .22 puts the first one way high each week whether it's scrubed, just rubbed, or left filthy. So it's either over cleaned, medium, or undercleaned. Yer can't win.

my family shoots almost every day. and I don't clean that often, But there is something about knowing when each rifle needs attention. The 10/22" chamber will crud up after a few hundred round but if I clean the Barrel it won't kill sparrows for at least 50 - 75 shots are fired so I only clean the chamber. The 17 HMR is another story it needs cleaned after every 50 or the group open right up.
I think each firearm is different. And thats why we need them all!!!

If you use the proper equipment (bore guide etc) and technique, you will not harm your tube. It is the people who think they are doing it correctly that generally harm their equipment. I know that Speedy uses Sweets and Butches now---the mixing of the Black Powder solvent and #9 I have not seen him do in 5 years. Read this and garner from it what you will however, this will get the barrel clean.


Proper Barrel Break-in
ensures long Barrel Life

Proper barrel break-in procedures are crucial for top accuracy and performance. More barrels are damaged by cleaning rods than by any amount of regular shooting a person may do. If not done correctly, one can do more harm than good.

The barrel break-in technique we endorse, is the “Speedy Method” named after Speedy Gonzalez, owner of S.G.& Y Rifles. Speedy is well known in Benchrest disciplines; national champion, world record holder, and Hall of Fame inductee in the National Benchrest Shooters Association (NBRSA). He has given permission to share with you, his expert advice on the correct method of barrel break-in and cleaning.


Rifle Cleaning the Right Way
Barrel break-in. Many of our customers upon taking delivery of their new rifle or barrel are in a quandary as how to go about breaking in their rifle for maximum life and accuracy. With so much written in magazines these days stating use this, don’t use that, brush, don’t brush...what’s a person to do?? At S.G.& Y. Rifles, we have a unique opportunity to inspect many rifle barrels on a daily basis with our video borescope. Consequently, we see the results of a variety of barrel break-in and cleaning procedures, and most of them leave the rifle owners with their mouth agape when they see the fruits of their misinformed labor on our color monitor. We have seen practically new barrels ruined with less than a hundred rounds shot through them by some of the crazy and sometimes humorous barrel break-in methods. Anyway here goes for what it’s worth.

A. Bore guides- If you don’t have one, get one! Without a good bore guide you are just wasting your time trying to break-in a barrel or cleaning it for that matter. More rifle barrels are destroyed by cleaning without a bore guide than by shooting! There are many types and brands of bore guides available on the market and range in price from $5.00 to $50.00. The only one we recommend is the Lucas two-piece bore guide. They are the best insurance you can buy for that new barrel. All other bore guides in my opinion are only good for keeping the solvents out of the trigger and action.


B. Solvents - We recommend Sweets 7.62 for copper and a *solvent mix of our own (Actually Pat McMillan gave me this formula) for powder fouling and for cleaning/storing your rifle for the next match or season. This Speedy Formula is made as follows:

Mix 2/3 rds. Hoppes No. 9 Plus Black Powder solvent with 1/3rd. Regular Hoppes No. 9 Nitro solvent. Let this mixture set overnight and it will form a sort of gel that adheres very well to the brush and cuts powder fouling to a minimum.

* Note: Butches Boreshine may be substituted for this Speedy formula.


C. Procedure for “Break-in” - Before firing that first shot, clean the barrel as if it had been shot by following these simple steps.

Step 1. Insert Lucas bore guide into receiver and chamber. If you don’t have one stop here and get one, if not, just shoot your rifle and forget trying to take any care of your barrel at all. If you do have one, proceed, and give yourself one “At-A-Boy” for being astute enough to have purchased the proper tools for the job.

Note: One “Aw-Sh*t” wipes out ALL “At-A-Boys”.

Step 2. Run one wet patch of Sweets through the bore and let soak for approximately 30 seconds. Do not patch this out.

Step 3. Next, run the brush through the barrel only enough to expose the entire brush. Yes, I know that you still have 12 more inches of cleaning rod you could push out the end of your barrel but we want to protect that new crown. Also, if that rod hangs out that far, you will eventually start wearing down the rifling at the crown from about 4 to 7 o’clock. This is very bad “JU-JU” for accuracy. OK, back to our next step. Once the brush is exposed, saturate it well with our Speedy Formula or Butch’s Boreshine and SLOWLY run the brush through the barrel 10 complete back and forth passes while keeping the rod as straight as possible. This is when the Lucas bore guide really pays for itself! Remember, the key word is slowly. We are not trying to break any land speed records today. Let this sit a minute or two and proceed to the next step.

Step 4. After you have let the barrel soak for a few moments, saturate a patch with the Speedy Formula or Butch’s Boreshine and pass it through the bore. Follow this with 2 dry patches and then dry the chamber with Brake Kleen or lighter fluid. Next, gently wipe the crown off with a soft cloth and lube your bolt (lets not gall the lugs just yet). Now, your ready to shoot your first shot. Then follow the schedule below to complete your barrel break-in.

1. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 1 shot.

2. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 5 shots.

3. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 shots.

4. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 to 15 shots and clean again.


D. Additional Barrel Break-in and Cleaning Tips -

1. Each time you clean you may also follow the last dry patch with a patch soaked with LOCK-EEZ. This is a graphite powder suspended in a quick evaporating carrier that coats the bore slightly before passing that first round through a completely dry bore.

2. We are always asked about powder fouling and how to remove it. The only product that we have seen that really does a good job on powder fouling, especially on the carbon ring that forms just ahead of where the neck ends in the chamber, is IOSSO Bore Paste. This is used with a Pro-Shot nylon bristle brush and worked slowly in the neck and throat areas, then slowly down the entire bore. Follow this up with a few wet patches, then dry the bore as usual, and your ready to shoot.



E. Follow the outline above for your regular cleaning program and I promise that your rifle barrels will deliver their greatest accuracy and life without a lot of grief and hours of wondering if they are clean.

Good Shooting,

Speedy Gonzalez

quote:

Originally posted by M70classic:
Gentlemen,
I am wondering if there is a massive advantage in cleaning after every shooting session, as opposed to when the accuracy starts to go, or just prior to extended storage? I guess I am wondering if a rifle can be cleaned too much? I am definitely not guilty of that charge, but am curious. My grandpa rarely, if ever cleaned his guns, and still managed to shoot a pile of deer. I clean more than that, but am wondering. Thanks.
Good shooting,
Graham

If we're talking about a benchrest rifle it will almost centainly group better from the dirty bore than the clean one for the first 2 or 3 shots. Most competitive benchrest shooters may clean after a given number of rounds or between sessions, but they normally don't make an attempt to remove all of the copper from the bore. Just several (4 or 5) passes with a wire bristle brush,(always only going from breech to muzzle) and a few cleaning patches. All barrels will have a few very small (microscopic) pits and depressions that will fill with copper after the rifle has be been fired only a few times, and it is at this point when the bore will be the smoothest and is most likely to produce the best groups.

If you have ever watched a benchrest competition, you will probably notice that most shooters will fire 2 or 3 "fouling" rounds off target to get the barrel in the condition it will be in for their competitive shots.

Personally I believe in giving a rifle a normal light cleaning as described above at the point where the rifle has shown in the past to begin to loose accuracy. It might be 25 rounds it might 100 depending upon the rifle. I will also usually give the rifle the same light cleaning at the end of each day of shooting.

F. Prefect