The best thing to remove carbon fouling. I'm a true believer after using my smith's borescope on a barrel I thought was clean. It had a ton of carbon. JB'ing it with a saturated patch on a brush got it bright and shiny!


I will be using it every 100 rounds to keep accuracy!

I will not say I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!


Congratulations -- keep that ring out as well as the little streaks of carbon and copper in the itty bitty cracks that can only be seen with a bore scope BUT corrosion can start with moisture migrating over time under that mess!!!!!

If you happen to run out of JB Compound(which is unlikely), I've used a mixture recommended by Mr. Bruce Hodgdon to remove the old H870 Carbon Fouling. It is a paste made with "Bon Ami" and your favorite Bore Cleaner.

Back when I used a lot of H870, and prior to me getting any JB Compound, Mr. Hodgdon's recommendation worked great and still does. It will not "scratch" surfaces like some household cleaners will.

Nothing at all wrong with JB Compound though.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
If you happen to run out of JB Compound(which is unlikely), I've used a mixture recommended by Mr. Bruce Hodgdon to remove the old H870 Carbon Fouling. It is a paste made with "Bon Ami" and your favorite Bore Cleaner.

Back when I used a lot of H870, and prior to me getting any JB Compound, Mr. Hodgdon's recommendation worked great and still does. It will not "scratch" surfaces like some household cleaners will.

Nothing at all wrong with JB Compound though.

Hot Core you have got to be kidding right?

I use Iosso but to but to mix chemicals of unknown composition is just, well --- NUTS.

There have been a lot of gains with cleaning technology in the last 30 to 40 years.

Aw, come on Hoss. When you add chocolate syrup to your milk you're mixing chemicals of unknown qualities.
Probably most of our advances in gun cleaning came from someone mixing "stuff" together to see what would happen. Somebody had to be the first one to say "let's mix some of that ammonia air conditioner cleaner with some Hoppes and see if it'll clean out the copper in my barrel?"
I think mixing Bon Ami and Hoppes just might work since (I think) the Bon Ami would be just a touch more abrasive than the JB's which wouldn't hurt anything.
What do you think??

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Aw, come on Hoss. When you add chocolate syrup to your milk you're mixing chemicals of unknown qualities.
Probably most of our advances in gun cleaning came from someone mixing "stuff" together to see what would happen. Somebody had to be the first one to say "let's mix some of that ammonia air conditioner cleaner with some Hoppes and see if it'll clean out the copper in my barrel?"
I think mixing Bon Ami and Hoppes just might work since (I think) the Bon Ami would be just a touch more abrasive than the JB's which wouldn't hurt anything.
What do you think??

Great Point-----do you think that if I put some Bon Ami on my Ice Cream it would clean and polish my teeth at the same time? Come to think of it it might just "clean me out" as well!

Let me try it and I will get back with you!

You'd probably shine all the way through. However, maybe we should let HC try it since he is such a great innovator, always up on the latest. Cutting edge so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
Hot Core you have got to be kidding right? ...

Nope, no joke. That was a Mr. Bruce Hodgdon recommendation which has always worked well. That would have been back around the early `70s that I first began using it.

I mixed mine in a small Gulden's Mustard Jar and I think I used Birchwood-Casey Bore Cleaner from the old squeeze can back then.

About 20 years ago a buddy and I got very interested in Cleaning Compounds. We were interested in "Embedding vs. Non-Embedding" Abrasives. After we looked into it, we came to the conclusion that the only commercial Non-Embedding Abrasive is "Garnet Powder".

One of the Chemists on the Board would do a better job of describing those Properties today than me.

To simplify the thought process though, it is similar to "WHY!" using a Plastic Coated, Brass or Aluminum(which I still use) Cleaning Rod will allow Grit(trash, residue etc.) to Embed in it's surface and then become a Round File.

Bon Ami, Garnet and Diametrious(SP?) Earth(which JB Compound is made from) won't Embed.

RC, HC,
we do agree on something
+1 on the JB bore paste.
I do not do a barrel break in procedure.
I simply take a couple bronze bore brushes covered in a JB/kroil mix, using bore guide and carbon fiber rod run a hundred to 300 strokes (depending on how energetic I am) clean up, load up and go shoot.

GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
RC, HC,
we do agree on something
+1 on the JB bore paste.
I do not do a barrel break in procedure.
I simply take a couple bronze bore brushes covered in a JB/kroil mix, using bore guide and carbon fiber rod run a hundred to 300 strokes (depending on how energetic I am) clean up, load up and go shoot.

GWB

Varmint Al does about the same thing. He says that the "shoot and Clean" process is just a slow polishing process that the JB can do just as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
RC, HC,
we do agree on something ...

Truth be told, I'd imagine we agree on "nearly" everything. And the things we don't agree on, have the potential to make good discussions.

I've never used J-B paste till yesterday.I tried it on one of my rifles that I thought had been cleaned real well.To my surprise,I didn't realize just how dirty it was.The patches came out black,black,black.Now the barrel is clean and no sign of copper at all.Now I need to see if my groups tighten up.I know one thing for sure,I'll be using it from now on.Is the J-B polish worth trying?

Baldhunter, take some JB or Iosso on a patch, and rub it on the outside of a SS barrel. Then let us know what the patch looks like.

I would,but I don't have any SS rifles!!!!!!!!I guess I need to get me a few so I can give it a try.Life is more fun when you have a bunch of guns!!!

Even with a clean tube the black will be there---the more you go back and forth the more the more black you will have.

Not only is Bon Ami good for that, but a little added to walnut media will get brass as clean and sparkly as anyone needs. It also saves a lot of $$$$$$$$ because all those polishes and gunk you add are just useless crap that fouls the media.

Just thought I'd add that it might be a good idea to order JB from someplace that has fresh stuff in stock.If you do not,you will find the top layer in a crust.The crusted top layer mixes with the fresher bottom layer and forms some crap that jams the patch between the brush and muzzle(ruins brush).The JB I bought from Brownells was fresh.You can also check the packaging carton for discoloration.If it is discolored,send it back.

Stir the JB before you use it. If you see the top drying out, add a drop or two of kroil to keep it wet.

I thin out J&B with Prolix, to the nearly consistincy of the old Remclean. Makes it easier to use.

+1 on the JB's watered down with Prolix to toothpaste consistency. Before storage I patch the bore and flush the chamber with Prolix and leave to dry.

I find that I don't need to water it down.It starts off thick and thins out,by itself, as you stroke it down the bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

I use Iosso but to but to mix chemicals of unknown composition is just, well --- NUTS.

There have been a lot of gains with cleaning technology in the last 30 to 40 years.

BossHoss,
Why do you use iosso over JB???

DVM---to be perfectly honest when I started competition my Smith who is a HOF shooter as well used it because it worked the best and using the bore scope and watching others use the JB product I must agree that Iosso works to my satisfaction. Also use the blue brushes and oil and let me tell you it will get out a carbon ring on a rifle that has never been properly cleaned in less than 10 minutes. Never has it taken over 15 minutes no matter how bad the fouling was to get the tube clean---bore scope always tells the truth .

On my new builds will work the neck area over and give the tube about 10 strokes then I shoot.

Iosso has no abrasive.

quote:

Iosso has no abrasive.

If it comes in a squeeze tube it has abrasives.

If you say so---the owner of the company told me differently at the last SHOT that was held in Orlando but that was a few years ago.

It is very hard to get any abrasive material to embed in metal. What is hard is to clean abrasive material from almost any surface. As it is worked it fractures and the small particles become "stuck" in small imperfections in the surface of the metal. Some abrasives with a rounder or blocky particle shape clean easier than the ones with a sharp particle shape. Ultrasonic cleaners work well in removing abrasive contamination but are not practical for firearm use.

When using any abrasive cleaning substance the softer abrasive materials will remove material slower and any left over particles will do less damage if left in the bore. The key when using abrasive type materials in bores is to make sure you clean the material out after using.

Any abrasive material even the softer ones like garnet or cerium oxide are still a lot harder than metal.

BigB

I fail to be convinced that using abrasives is beneficial for any but the most extreme barrel fouling.
Which has the greatest effect on a barrel's accuracy; a shiny bore, or well defined lands & grooves?

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
Any abrasive material even the softer ones like garnet or cerium oxide are still a lot harder than metal.
BigB

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:
I fail to be convinced that using abrasives is beneficial for any but the most extreme barrel fouling.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
Any abrasive material even the softer ones like garnet or cerium oxide are still a lot harder than metal.
BigB

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:
I fail to be convinced that using abrasives is beneficial for any but the most extreme barrel fouling.

+1

If you had a Bore Scope you would understand.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

If you had a Bore Scope you would understand.

I don't need to bore scope any barrels to understand two things.

First - If you run abrasive compounds over the bore sufficiently it will, as you claim, remove every perceptible bit of carbon.

Second - If you run abrasive compounds over the bore sufficiently to remove every perceptible bit of carbon it will also result in the removal of steel from the bore. The only way you can polish steel is to remove steel. Abrasives may be required for removing rust and corrosion from a barrel but using abrasives to remove powder residue and carbon is unnecessary and results in undue wear upon the bore.

quote:

http://www.precisionrifles.com...ing%20Procedures.htm

The third group of cleaners are the abrasives such as JB Compound and Gold Medallion (or RemClean). Despite what it says on the outside of the bottle these products are abrasive and careless use can easily put excessive wear on the throat of a barrel. However, they do a very good job of removing metallic fouling. Please use only small quantities while carefully avoiding any concentration of its use at either the muzzle or the throat.

quote:

Gary Schneider, Schneider Rifle Barrels

For the carbon build-up in the throat area, I don't think you need to treat that differently than fouling elsewhere in the bore. I discourage the use of abrasives. JB is a 1200-grit lapping compound. When you use it aggressively, some of that black you see on the patch is barrel steel. JB and Rem-Clean can remove steel and, in my opinion, used to excess, these products will decrease the life of the barrel. Yes I know Tony Boyer uses lots of JB. But he keeps a large inventory of barrels and he has no compunction about wearing out a barrel. Most shooters demand longer barrel life and hence should avoid using abrasives.

quote:

John Krieger, Krieger Barrels

I've been asked about the abrasive bore cleaners. My advice is to proceed with caution. Use JB sparingly. A JB-coated patch becomes more of a surface lap. I've seen people actually lap a taper in their bore using JB on a patch. You want to clean your barrel, not change its dimensions! I'd just put JB on a bristle brush if you feel compelled to use it.

quote:

Michelle Sutton, Co-Owner, Hart Rifle Barrels

I've also personally witnessed the damage that can be done with over-aggressive cleaning. I had one barrel that I cleaned using Rem-Clean on a patch over a brass brush. (Rem-Clean is an abrasive similar to JB.) I made 10 round-trips through the bore, running the brush just a bit past the muzzle on each cycle. Then I went out and shot the gun. The groups were terrible and the last two inches of the barrel was packed with copper. I inspected what had been a nice shiny, sharp crown and it looked like it had been bead-blasted. I then measured the bore diameter at the crown and found that the groove dimension had increased .0002" (two ten-thousandths). I ended up cutting a half-inch off the barrel and recrowning it, but the barrel still shot very poorly. It basically had been ruined for competitive purposes.

quote:

Chris Dichter, Owner, Pac-Nor Barreling

My preference is cleaning every 20-30 rounds. We settled on the Witches' Brew from Dave Holland, which is 1200 micron-inch aluminum oxide in Kroil. It removes anything that isn't gun-barrel steel. It gets carbon and copper out very effectively. Be careful with JB and abrasives--A JB'd patch around a bristle brush can become a lap more than a cleaning agent.

If Witches Brew from Dave Holland is 1200 mesh the average particle size of the abrasive is 3 microns some particles will be as high as 5 microns. That will not remove barrel steel at a rapid pace but will remove metal.

BigB

quote:

Baldhunter

Baldhunter, Please publish your observations relative to group size improvements (or not) when you try the abrasive cleaner experiment.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

If you had a Bore Scope you would understand.

I don't need to bore scope any barrels to understand two things.

First - If you run abrasive compounds over the bore sufficiently it will, as you claim, remove every perceptible bit of carbon.

Second - If you run abrasive compounds over the bore sufficiently to remove every perceptible bit of carbon it will also result in the removal of steel from the bore. The only way you can polish steel is to remove steel. Abrasives may be required for removing rust and corrosion from a barrel but using abrasives to remove powder residue and carbon is unnecessary and results in undue wear upon the bore.

quote:

http://www.precisionrifles.com...ing%20Procedures.htm

The third group of cleaners are the abrasives such as JB Compound and Gold Medallion (or RemClean). Despite what it says on the outside of the bottle these products are abrasive and careless use can easily put excessive wear on the throat of a barrel. However, they do a very good job of removing metallic fouling. Please use only small quantities while carefully avoiding any concentration of its use at either the muzzle or the throat.

quote:

Gary Schneider, Schneider Rifle Barrels

For the carbon build-up in the throat area, I don't think you need to treat that differently than fouling elsewhere in the bore. I discourage the use of abrasives. JB is a 1200-grit lapping compound. When you use it aggressively, some of that black you see on the patch is barrel steel. JB and Rem-Clean can remove steel and, in my opinion, used to excess, these products will decrease the life of the barrel. Yes I know Tony Boyer uses lots of JB. But he keeps a large inventory of barrels and he has no compunction about wearing out a barrel. Most shooters demand longer barrel life and hence should avoid using abrasives.

quote:

John Krieger, Krieger Barrels

I've been asked about the abrasive bore cleaners. My advice is to proceed with caution. Use JB sparingly. A JB-coated patch becomes more of a surface lap. I've seen people actually lap a taper in their bore using JB on a patch. You want to clean your barrel, not change its dimensions! I'd just put JB on a bristle brush if you feel compelled to use it.

quote:

Michelle Sutton, Co-Owner, Hart Rifle Barrels

I've also personally witnessed the damage that can be done with over-aggressive cleaning. I had one barrel that I cleaned using Rem-Clean on a patch over a brass brush. (Rem-Clean is an abrasive similar to JB.) I made 10 round-trips through the bore, running the brush just a bit past the muzzle on each cycle. Then I went out and shot the gun. The groups were terrible and the last two inches of the barrel was packed with copper. I inspected what had been a nice shiny, sharp crown and it looked like it had been bead-blasted. I then measured the bore diameter at the crown and found that the groove dimension had increased .0002" (two ten-thousandths). I ended up cutting a half-inch off the barrel and recrowning it, but the barrel still shot very poorly. It basically had been ruined for competitive purposes.

quote:

Chris Dichter, Owner, Pac-Nor Barreling

My preference is cleaning every 20-30 rounds. We settled on the Witches' Brew from Dave Holland, which is 1200 micron-inch aluminum oxide in Kroil. It removes anything that isn't gun-barrel steel. It gets carbon and copper out very effectively. Be careful with JB and abrasives--A JB'd patch around a bristle brush can become a lap more than a cleaning agent.

Most people do not know how to properly use cleaning products and consequently screw things up (very evident from the comments). You can ask anyone anything and get different answers. The product I use Iosso has not ever shown to wear my tubes prematurely. It does however help me to win and shoot very small groups but for the average person who thinks if a little is good then a lot is better and uses that approach then that is how most screw up the tube when cleaning.

With the bore scope I know exactly what to do and when to do it. If you read all of the above the message is to be careful----most people do not use bore guides or they are not careful when coming back across the crown. To put it in the simplest terms why spend 30 strokes with a brush when 7 will do and the only way to know that is to look into the tube. Not all tubes are the same even when using primarily one manufacturer when it comes to cleaning. I have a 338 that is a pain yet the other 338’s all the same maker clean very easily.

All of my crowns are still perfect and all have been cleaned with Iosso except the new ones that are sitting chambered in the back of the safe---those have just been oiled waiting for their chance.

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
If Witches Brew from Dave Holland is 1200 mesh the average particle size of the abrasive is 3 microns some particles will be as high as 5 microns. That will not remove barrel steel at a rapid pace but will remove metal.

BigB

One of my buddies who I compete with and works Sierra uses that and it does work like a champ! When you shake it has a little ball that mixes it up and makes a very unique noise so you know who is using it on the line between relays!

If JB is 1200 mesh and Witche's
Brew is 1200 mesh, what is the difference in what they do? Retorical question, no need to give me 3 pages of the vast difference between the two.
I have used JB on a lot of rifles. When the barrels were brand new and as a continueing aid in cleaning my rifles. I am not a precision shooter by any means but I shoot often enough and well enough to know if something is helping me or hurting me. All of my results from using JB have been positive. And that's from a guy that gets no free stuff, has no monetary stake, nor is buddies with any vendor. I just know what works for me.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
If JB is 1200 mesh and Witche's
Brew is 1200 mesh, what is the difference in what they do? Retorical question, no need to give me 3 pages of the vast difference between the two.
I have used JB on a lot of rifles. When the barrels were brand new and as a continueing aid in cleaning my rifles. I am not a precision shooter by any means but I shoot often enough and well enough to know if something is helping me or hurting me. All of my results from using JB have been positive. And that's from a guy that gets no free stuff, has no monetary stake, nor is buddies with any vendor. I just know what works for me.

Wasbeeman-----I am more prone to spend money on some things than you are BUT!!!!!! It has to work for me to use it and I only use Iosso not JB or Witches Brew even though I was tempted to use the WB. With what guns cost to build guns it would be stupid to harm them in any way and that is why the tools and products are in my shooting box or garage to make sure I don't.

If you ever do want to spend the money on a tool that is arguably one of the best ones in my garage it would be the borescope---unlike people it does not lie!!

If for any reason they do get screwed up it will certainly not be because of ignorance of proper cleaning methods.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
The product I use Iosso has not ever shown to wear my tubes prematurely.

As far as Iosso, I contacted them and they said that their cleaner is chemical based and not an abrasive.

Regarding JB and other abrasives, I would be a fool not to listen to the experts quoted above.

They are:
Chris Dichter, Owner, Pac-Nor Barreling
Michelle Sutton, Co-Owner, Hart Rifle Barrels
John Krieger, Krieger Barrels
Gary Schneider, Schneider Rifle Barrels

I have a tube of Iosso around here somewhere, I will have to dig it out and give it a try.

If it is not an abrasive, how does it work???

I don't know. Here is what they told me.

quote:

In regards to the bore cleaner you can rest easy. It will not scratch or wear down the bore as it works chemically with little abrasive. We do suggest the use of the IOSSO triple action oil solution before and after cleaning! The bore brushes are made of a nylon composite called Nyflex. Hope this helps to answer your questions

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

quote:

Michelle Sutton, Co-Owner, Hart Rifle Barrels

I've also personally witnessed the damage that can be done with over-aggressive cleaning. I had one barrel that I cleaned using Rem-Clean on a patch over a brass brush. (Rem-Clean is an abrasive similar to JB.) I made 10 round-trips through the bore, running the brush just a bit past the muzzle on each cycle. Then I went out and shot the gun. The groups were terrible and the last two inches of the barrel was packed with copper. I inspected what had been a nice shiny, sharp crown and it looked like it had been bead-blasted. I then measured the bore diameter at the crown and found that the groove dimension had increased .0002" (two ten-thousandths). I ended up cutting a half-inch off the barrel and recrowning it, but the barrel still shot very poorly. It basically had been ruined for competitive purposes.

I may have been born yesterday, but not last night. That is utter nonsense.