I have two old Remingtons with promising bores, one in .30 WCF and one in .30 Remington. I hit them with foaming cleaner, Hoppes No. 9, bore brush and they look like they are cleaning up. I patch them out and they look like sewers again. It's weird. I am not getting clean patches though, so maybe they just need more time and elbow grease.

Thanks for asking this. I have much the same issue with every rifle I have. I simply cannot get rid of those pesky dirty patches. I'd love to hear what others have to say.

I've used all kinds of different bore cleaners and techniques. My ritual has settled into a two step process, repeated several times.

Step 1: A patch soaked in Kroil short-stroked through the barrel.
Step 2: A patch saturated(?) with JB bore paste, shot-stroked through the barrel.

Repeat forever (well, until I get impatient enough to say "screw it").

When I've given up, I then begin to finish with clean Kroil-soaked patch short-stroked through the bore, repeated 3 times each time with a clean Kroil-soaked patch.

Finally, I run clean dry patches through until they come out clean.

BUT: If I then wet a patch with Kroil and run it through the bore I get a (somewhat) dirty patch. Cleaner than when I started, but not pristine.

That's when I threaten seppuku or drink a beer. (Ummmmm . . . BEER!)

B L, been there, done that. I was a copy editor at the Courier many years ago, by the way.

Well, after multiple applications of Wipeout foam, Hoppes No. 9, bronze brushing, Shooter's Choice Copper Solvent and about 50 patches, there is light at the end of the tunnel. Still a lot of black crud coming out though.

Are you getting copper out or powder fouling out?

If it is copper, try KG12 and loose the bronze brush. If it is power fouling, plug the barrel and fill it with most any solvent from Number 9 to Kriol to Shooters Choice to Butch's Bore Shine, and let it soak a few hours. Then "light" brushing, maybe a "little" JB Bore Paste and a fist full of patch will do it.

If it is power fouling, then you will most likely find more copper so hit it with KG12 and a nylon brush and patch it out.

Ope, I'll get black crud, then blue crud, then black crud. Your analysis would seem spot on. I will have to find some of this KG12 you speak of. Thanks.

The blue crud can easily be your bronze brush being eaten alive by the copper solvent. You need to use a nylon brush with copper solvents and a bronze brush with power/carbon solvents.

quote:

. . . I will have to find some of this KG12 you speak of. Thanks.

LOL! But the coffee hurt coming out my nose.

I would just get some carb-out. If I run into the problems you indicate, I use some carb-out, nylon brush, clean patch and then go to the wipe-out. I am not as anal as I used to be and I don't have as much time. I can let the wipe out sit for a couple days, if needed.

Assuming you learned not to introduce confusion via Cu++ jag or brush, it is possible to get all the Cu++ out. Couple examples.

First is a 1934 M-54 in '06. Bore has a couple proximal pits large enough to see from chamber end using a simple magnifying lens. Still shoots fine. Tough to get anything like Kroil/abrasives into depressions so used heavier NH3+ solvents till recently. Now use Patch-Out. Takes about 1-2 weeks till clean.

Example 2 is an 11.5" M-16 blaster upper. Rifling is barely visible for the first 4" or so, chrome long gone. That one benefits from cycles of Kroil/paste alternating with Patch-Out. Likewise, takes up to 2 weeks.

Now lets say I finish both, then take them to the range and fire 5 shots through each. I am looking at the same process, involving overnight soakings plus couple sessions per day till done.

Here's the question: does it really matter if I get them 100% Cu++ free? Especially, when they don't shoot any better clean vs dirty?

If I lived right on the Gulf coast, maybe the answer would be yes. In current circumstances the answer is no.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I'll get black crud, then blue crud, then black crud.

Im really sorry to say this Bill, but that sounds like oxidation to me.

Geez Sam , I'd say you got your moneys worth out of that M-16 barrel! I'd spend a buck fifty for a new chrome lined barrel just to keep from doing that much cleaning!

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
Geez Sam , I'd say you got your moneys worth out of that M-16 barrel! I'd spend a buck fifty for a new chrome lined barrel just to keep from doing that much cleaning!

You're right. And have a drawer full of uppers. But I'm curious to discover round ct at which tumbling commences on this one. The Vegas rental guys write about getting close on 100k rounds from a chromed bbl, but their indoor range is close - the renter would not know if projos tumbled. My worst 11.5 still does 12" at 100 yds (with Russian), no tipping, after a pretty abusive roughly 20k rounds. The gas port seen with a magnifier is ugly ragged. I restrict it to low powered Russian .223 now. ROF is too fast with M193.

I learned this lesson about 5 or 6 years ago.

Copper and carbon are deposited in LAYERS inside the bore - one on top of the other. You remove the copper with Wipeout and then you have the carbon. Once I found 7 layers or may be more!

Here is what I do

1. Use a nylon brush (not brass or bronze)
2. Clean with Wipeout (plus Accelerator if needed)
3. Clean with Carburetor cleaner to remove carbon
4. Alternate them 3 times
5 CLEAN BORE!

Gracias Naki!

Ive had that problem with some double rifles. Ive cleaned on them for a week with every goop out there, even some real bad stuff that I make. The best I can get is a dark grey patch..With some older guns a gray patch is all your going to get..but its not a really problem..MOre than a few of those old doubles shot damn good, peppered bores and all..

Whilst we don't have what you guys call "bubbas" over here we have people called "gamekeepers" who are equally enthusiastic about gun cleaning and so have some sympathy for you...

When cleaning the bore of a rifle that the oblivious vendor cheerfully describes as "cleaned once a year whether it needed it or not", before adding "with WD40" after thoughtful pause I use a combined attack of Forrest bore foam ( Which dissolves both powder and copper fouling ) which gets rid of the bulk of the crap before using JB bore paste to dig the stubborn fouling in the corners of the lands.

It helps to use a new bronze brush after the first application of borefoam to help the stuff penetrate the fouling.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Gracias Naki!

What Naki says...but use Carb-out (same company that make Wipe-out/Patch-out) instead of carburetor cleaner.

Just a note of caution if using a "carb" cleaner.
Some carb cleaners will strip the finish off the wood. So be careful and have it out of the wood stock if aggressively cleaning.
I only had to refinish a friends rifle once to figure this out.

I have a can of the old ww2 bore cleaner in the olive green can. when I get a bore like that I plug the barrel and fill it up. let it soak for an hour and clean. may take a couple tries but it always works. wear rubber gloves this stuff sure stinks and hard to wash off.

Gun cleaning...a billion variations a few billion barrels on a single theme...EVERYONE wanting THE simple answer to THE complicated question.

Look how many pages there are on this subject...near 8000...basically NO single answer, or actually, several answers to every single barrel out there and every shooters individual "cleaning requirements".

My suggestion is to go back and read a few dozen pages and try to pick out a few DOZEN answers that MIGHT work for you.

Many of the responders on this one page alone have hit the high spots...but one thing stands out about your question...the MOUNT OF TIME AND EFFORT REQUIRED to really clean "DOWN TO THE METAL"...which you haven't quite achieved and which you may NOT want to do anyway.

I've used up to 3 cans EACH of Wipeout "getting the lead out" on one 17 Rem, several military weapons AND several of my "clean" benchrest and varminters when Wipeout first came out...and it took me several rounds of "seasoning" to get those "really clean" barrels back into bughole condition.

I use Wipeout, Patchout, and accelerator and Gunslik foaming products, Butches, TM, Montana, KG, Shooters choice...Sweets 7.62 and home made ammonium products and MOST of the other heavy duty copper cleaners...Mercury Quicksilver and auto carbon removers...Kroil, Flitz, JB's and other types of fine "valve grinding" products...and, of course, every oil/rust preventative I could find...and just about every other product that has hit the market in the last 40-50 years and some not available to the public...all to a greater or lesser extend and many just taking up space because I'm too cheap to throw them out.

Today, for the most part, I use environmentally friendly products that do just as good a job as that "stuff" that will "eat you for lunch" if it gets on your skin or you breath it....mainly TM, Butches, Wipeout, Kroil, Flitz and JB's, and nylon brushes.

My newly acquired 03A3's barrel looked VERY clean when I first peeked down the bore, but the first few TM laced patches came out blue, this from a Service Rifle match trophy winner and a very experienced paper puncher with many BEAUTIFUL target rifles...

So I kroiled it up, let it sit a couple days, more TM...less and less blue...a couple days of Patchout...almost no blue...Kroil/TM, let sit for 3 days...still some light blue...ordered one of those endoscopes...time will tell...I still have 25 rounds to fireform as it is very close to NO-GO specs...which I will correct with the sizing die/shell holder.

Your two guns probably NEVER were cleaned down to the bone and the crud just kept getting layered and ironed in...all those military weapons took several weeks of over night(or two) with Wipeout followed by scrubbing with a nylon brush, filling the barrel with Sweets, back to Wipeout/nylon brush, etc. I NEVER did get a completely non-slightly blue patch...and it also took a few dozen rounds to get the barrels seasoned back to where it was quasi-accurate and not spitting flyers all over the target.

It also takes time and many rounds to establish just WHAT the barrel will do as far as accuracy and accuracy longevity. I have a few very hi-velo calibers with middle of the road barrels that only get 15-25 rounds before needing a couple patches of TM/Butches to restore the bugholes...those with Lilja bbl's go 40-70 before needing a patch.

EVERY rifle I have requires a slightly different cleaning procedure... MOST, except the military, hold 1/2 or less 3 shot groups AFTER one or two foulers and will hold that for at least 20 rounds, including the big bores... but every rifle is individual...just like us.

Luck

You will never get a clean patch with a bronze or brass brush, the wipe out will eat the brush up while your working and patch is trying to clean the brush not the bore..Use Nylon brushes with al copper killer...

After all that cleaning as described your probably not going to get a so called clean patch, but the gun will be clean enough..If it shoots well, you did your job. the color of a patch is an overrated observation, one can get plumb annal over a white patch..

Keep in mind there has never been an animal killed with a clean bore, that's impossible.

Thank you for getting this post toward the top. I rarely go to the gun cleaning forum. I have always been of the school, "the last bullet just cleaned things up."

I have been having a time with a 17 hornet and cleaned it aggressively with all the various solvents and JB and oils and brushes. I could never be able to get a clean dry patch and I ran a fist full though it.

I am glad to hear that I am not the only one to not get a "clean" patch.

I have found with a small caliber the cleanliness of the barrel seems to matter more. and now I won't get stressed that I can't get an overly clean patch.