I was reading this article over the weekend:

http://www.6mmbr.com/sixfive284.html

In which the following occurred:

quote:

"Barrel life may depend on luck of the draw. I will say, copper build-up and glazed carbon in the throat is the death knell for these. I am no fan of JB [cleaning paste], but it may sometimes be neccessary.

I have often noticed that barrels go dark in the grooves, even when cleaned well and with no trace of copper in them. The dark colour shows up primarily in front of the chamber, and decreases when you move towards th muzzle (Hawkeye borescope). Until now, I had sort of accepted this as inevitable - a "bears shit in woods" thing, so to speak... But maybe I have been too overbearing with this phenomenon?? Could this be the "glazed carbon" fouling mentioned in the above article??

I don't believe either a regular powder cleaning routine (brass brush, powder solvent), nor a copper cleaning routine (Sweets, WipeOut etc) will get rid of this. At least the fouling appears in my barrels in spite of cleaning for both powder and copper.

So, how is this powder fouling created (something to do with heat, I suppose?)?? And, are abrasives (like JB bore paste) the only way to get rid of this??

- mike

Mike
Many years ago there was an article in Handloader Magazine speaking to this problem. It seems that that using H870, 20mm cannon powder, in a high intensity cartridge the calcium used in the manufacturing of the powder would form a glaze in the barrel.
The writer was using Bon Ami to cut the glazing out. It was his contention that the calcium carbonate in the Bon Ami would not harm the steel.
My suggestion is to use the JB Bore paste, then put some Kroil in the barrel over night to let it work it's way under the remaining glaze.

Jim

Thanks Pete, I'll try that.

- mike

Micky Coleman told me to wrap some 0000 steel wool around an undersized bronze brush, dip it in any "carbon" fouling cleaner and give it a few strokes. He stated to me that it won't harm the bore in his experience.

I've never tried it, and probabaly never will, not on my current barrels anyway. I may use a Ruger factory barrel as a test barrel someday though. But I have a difficult time believing that steel wool won't scratch the bore.

I've found MPro 7 to be effective on baked on carbon fouling.

Andre, what is MPro7?? (Pardon my ignorance...)

Doc, I have heard of other (BR) shooters using the steel wool routine. In the name of caution, I think I might try JB before getting as radical as this....

It is funny, isn't it, for years now I have concentrated on getting rid of copper fouling, thinking powder fowling was the easy part of the job. At least reading the article from 6mmBR.com linked above, this sounds like it may not be the entire story. Why does the world have to be so complicated...

- mike

I don't know, but steel wool doesn't seem to scratch the outside of barrels, while rubbing off rust etc.

Re fosselised carbon, don't know about that either, but I like to soak my barrels in solvent whenever they're not being used. Hopefully to soften up the stuff for the wipe-out before shooting. O'course you need a rust preventive solvent.

Bio-degradable solvent that was designed to maintain helicopter Vulcan guns. Its the best I ever found to clean baked on carbon (after some brushing with MPro7, my FAL gas piston looks like new).

http://www.mp7.com/default.aspx

A suggestion.
Steel wool in my barrel does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling, butt they do make bronze wool and they make a copper pot scrubber pad that can be found in the local grocery store.
I use the copper scrubber, a few strands wrapped around an old brush, this worked nicely for my cleaning out of lead fouling.

Jim

MPro7 is also sold as Hoppe's Elite Gun Cleaner and Bore Gel.

@mho,

I also have a borescope and know exactly what you mean. And yes, in wrongly cleaned guns you do find carbon build up. I got rid of it with above mentioned Hoppe's Elite. It was the best I could find, having tried all the other regular suspects.

But there will alway be a remainder of blackening, which to my mind is a chemical reaction within the steel surface. It is the first step on the way to errosion which manifests itself as crocodile skin.

while in the chat room last evening, 308Sako recommended a product called slip 2000, perhaps available from Sinclair.

May give that a try. As far as copper fouling v. powder fouling, for me there has been no contest in the long run....copper just hasn't been an issue. black carbon/powder fouling is.

I am a 1K BR guy and IOSSO works period evrytime... All is bore scope verified! For me I shoot mostly Kriegers and they are very happy when clean. IOSSO is esp good on the forward area of the chamber where the dreaded carbon ring forms and rips copper off of the jacket which is bad juju for accuracy.

A friend of mine who shoots bench rest will wet his barrel with Kroil and let it rest over night then cleans. He reports that he gets good results.

Jim

Supporting Boss Hoss' position, I can tell you Mike that in barrels that really look clean, even with the Hawkeye, If a run a mop with some IOSSO through there and swab it good, it gets some dark stuff out.

Good luck on it, I always like what Ken Zediker says about your barrel cleaning procedure, 'what does the target face tell you'

In other words if it's shooting better or good enough than your doing something right.

J&B Bore Paste or RemClean is the only thing I have found that will get a barrel 100% clean.

And I was using a Hawkeye Bore scope.

Jim Broast has your answer I've used Rem-clean and Iosso too, RC is IMHO the most aggressive, Iosso is a pretty pink, but I settled on JB's it's never let me down, even when removing the black death left by surplus numbers like 872-870-860 and 5010 mixed in with a little moly.

quote:

quote:
"Barrel life may depend on luck of the draw. I will say, copper build-up and glazed carbon in the throat is the death knell for these. I am no fan of JB [cleaning paste], but it may sometimes be neccessary.

That explains why I had 2 factory barrels go south in less than a thousand rounds when I started using the foam bore cleaners, not aware it wouldn't remove the carbon. A third barrel cleaned up and started shooting again after heavy use of JB on the throat. I'll stick with Hoppes, Sweets and Kroil. A few years from now I wonder how many foam users will be cursing.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Micky Coleman told me to wrap some 0000 steel wool around an undersized bronze brush, dip it in any "carbon" fouling cleaner and give it a few strokes. He stated to me that it won't harm the bore in his experience.

I've never tried it, and probabaly never will, not on my current barrels anyway. I may use a Ruger factory barrel as a test barrel someday though. But I have a difficult time believing that steel wool won't scratch the bore.

That is without a doubt one of the most asinine things I have ever heard of! Poor old guy is losing it but what does work and it works every time as verified by the bore scope is Iosso Paste. I shoot 1k BR and start every match or shooting session with a CLEAN bore now 90% of my rifles wear custom tubes but this works with factory rifles as well. If you start from a known condition it is good---also using this product reduces the number of trips by brushes down the barrel. Do the research and give this stuff a try it works and will not cause any harm to the barrel. Many people out there have some pretty whacked ideas about how to clean a bore but it is not rocket science. Let the chemicals do the work and remember a clean barrel is a happy barrel.

The old wives tale about the patch is not showing any blue is just that a wives tale because carbon and copper will layer—seen it hundreds of times on a bore scope. Just this year at a match in Missouri I was watching the guy a few spots down cussing his barrel and I offered to scope it for him. He had done very well the weekend before in Iowa and was perplexed at what was going on and his jaw hit the ground when he looked thru the scope. Long story short we did the Iosso process and his tube was clean esp in the forward of the chamber including the throat. The next relay his scores and groups were back where they should have been and when I was leaving came up to me and shook my hand and said “all of these years I thought I knew what I was doing and have replaced barrels that were polluted not shot outâ€. Just give this a try and then post your results—they will be favorable. Oh also use a bore guide when you clean!!

When using Iosso it will turn as black as coal when running it trough the tube. When brushing remember to go slow you are not running a race and I also use the Iosso brushes and oil in this process. Just follow the instructions.