Hi all:
OK, my question: Any metal surface has microscopical pores right?
Now if one shoots a couple of bullets down a barrel with said "pores" , these would be filled up by the copper depositing in the barrel , right? This is what is generally referred to as copper fouling.
So if one were able to remove just the fouling thats on the surface of the barrel and not the copper in the "pores", wouldn't that make for a smoother bore?
If one is using a copper remover, like say sweets, are you not removing all the copper(including the "good"copper in the microscopical pores)?
I was told that shooters choice would be the closest thing to barrel treatment..
Any comments please?

Welcome to AR.

I have no experience with Shooter's Choice and don't know exactly what it is. According to your theory, an abrasive cleaner such as J-B Bore Paste might be best. You'd knock the copper off the surface, and the abrasives would polish the copper in the tops of the pores until it was flat and smooth.

A clean bore is irrelevant to most of the shooting I do. If I'm going to fire dozens or hundreds of rounds, most of those are going to be through a fouled bore.

Ack! then there's big game hunting. That one shot at a big animal is probably through a clean, slightly oily (I submit that wiping with a few dry patches is not as effective a de-oiling technique as rubbing with jacketed bullts and hot burning smokeless powder smoke), and ice-cold bore. I know less about the zero of that shot (cleanliness of bore, barrel temperature, ammo temperature, shooting position) than I do the hundreds and thousands of shots I expended practicing for it through a hot, fouled bore.

Well, I don't hunt the power line rights of way generally, so minute-of-paper-plate at 60 to 120 yards is all I'll likely need around here. If hunting was my primary reason for shooting, I wouldn't shoot nearly as much. That's just me, and I intend no offense to anyone else's philosophy on it.

What's Shooter's Choice?

H. C.

I am a bit weary of JB compound for regular use - I have used Wenol polishing paste which seems to be less abrasive and more of a polishing effect.A friend who works at the medical research council told me they use it to polish the brass components inside an electron microscope - good enough for them , so I recon its good enough for me. (bought it at a local cultlery store where it is used to polish stainless steel)

Thomast - To a degree you are correct in that a fouled bore generally shoots a tighter group. If you look at your first cold/clean bore shot, many times this is considered a flyer in the group.

Some folks are reporting that super clean bores take more than a few shots before their groups tighten up. This is a common complaint with folks using foaming bore cleaners. I have not found this to be extreme with solvents like Sweets, CR-10, and Montana X-Treme.

There is no question that you can scrub a bore to an early grave. You want to use an aggressive copper solvent like Sweets, CR-10, or Montana X-Treme in order to limit the scrub time.

Be very careful with abrasive compounds (medical or otherwise). JB is designed to be non-embedding - it quickly breaks down. Other abrasives are designed to do exactly the opposite and can cause significant wear. I only resort to JB when I am cleaning moly coated bores where throat fouling is a problem.

Hope this helps...

quote:

Originally posted by THOMAST:
Hi all:
OK, my question: Any metal surface has microscopical pores right?
Now if one shoots a couple of bullets down a barrel with said "pores" , these would be filled up by the copper depositing in the barrel , right? This is what is generally referred to as copper fouling.
So if one were able to remove just the fouling thats on the surface of the barrel and not the copper in the "pores", wouldn't that make for a smoother bore?
If one is using a copper remover, like say sweets, are you not removing all the copper(including the "good"copper in the microscopical pores)?
I was told that shooters choice would be the closest thing to barrel treatment..
Any comments please?

Speaking of a high quality barrel; you don't want a perfectly smooth interior surface but instead it will have a very fine roughness that is measured in microns (I think this is the correct term). When breaking in the barrel, this micron finish will give something for the carbon fouling to stick to. When broken in, a small amount of carbon fouling will stick to the barrel which in turn will prevent copper from sticking. One of the major barrel makers (it may be lilja?) had a good article on the problems w/ a barrel that is finished too smooth whereas the carbon does not stick and as a result the copper does and the barrel fouls quicker.

Copper sticks to copper and will build up, so you do not want to burnish the interior wall of the barrel w/ copper jacket material. You'll never turn a piss poor barrel into a match grade barrel but you can do your best to stay on top of any copper build up. The trick is to remove it w/out wearing the edge of the rifling and/or the crown w/ aggressive cleaning techniques. I prefer the newer non-aggressive cleaning solutions.

A lot of good info here. One other item: Copper in the bore attracts other copper. Builds up in the bore. If you are familiar with stainless bolt guns, you know if they use the same type of stainless steel for moving parts, you'll get galling. Well copper does the same thing. But, because copper is softer, it strips some away from the bullet and keeps it in the bore.

Thanks for the replies guys!
GaryVA - you talk about carbon deposits in the barrel which retards copper fouling. Just for clarity: At your first shot through a clean, non copper containing barrel, the copper jacket should deposit some copper in the barrel before the carbon fouling deposits a layer, not so? And this carbon depositing will then slow down further copper depositing? I would really appreciate a link to that article you were referring to about clean barrels- Lilja? (I'm just trying to eliminate any confusion here and get to the specifics)
For the record, I am currently shooting a Shilen stainless steel barrel in a Rem 700 action.

Henry,
"Shooter's Choice" is an excellent bore cleaner. Mfg. by the Ventco Corp. They have a website if you're interested: www.shooters-choice.com. Very good cleaner for fine competition shotgun bbls. where not only do you have powder residue, but also small amounts of plastic residue from hundreds of rounds fired in a day. I've found it to work very well in my rifles and handguns also.
Hope this helps...
Cheers,
Don

quote:

Originally posted by THOMAST:
Thanks for the replies guys!
GaryVA - you talk about carbon deposits in the barrel which retards copper fouling. Just for clarity: At your first shot through a clean, non copper containing barrel, the copper jacket should deposit some copper in the barrel before the carbon fouling deposits a layer, not so? And this carbon depositing will then slow down further copper depositing? I would really appreciate a link to that article you were referring to about clean barrels- Lilja? (I'm just trying to eliminate any confusion here and get to the specifics)
For the record, I am currently shooting a Shilen stainless steel barrel in a Rem 700 action.

THOMAST,

This is the article by Lilja. I agree w/ it 100% and have found it to be true and correct w/ my experiences:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm

Just to clarify (the article has more detail), the entire barrel ID will not foul w/ copper after one round. The entire barrel will begin to collect a build-up of hard carbon fouling w/ the exception of imperfections that will grab some copper jacket material. You need to remove this small amount of copper and not allow it to build upon itself. You will never turn a crappy barrel into a match barrel, but on a good barrel you will eventually smooth out these minor imperfections and the copper will reduce and you will build up a small amount of hard carbon fouling.

Once my barrels are broken in well, I do not like to strip all of the carbon fouling to bare metal during cleaning.

Hope this helps.

Thanks GaryVA, as a matter interest, what do you use during your barrel cleaning routine?

Should you " smoke " a clean barrel with a torch so you could carbonize it , or shoot squib loads with activated charcoal bullets . Gotta fill them pores with something .