I primarily use Wipeout for bore cleaning, but have noticed alot of black "gunk" coming out on the patches even after 24hrs. Is this carbon? I have been thinking of using BBS with a nylon brush first, then apply Wipeout. Any comments?

Wipe Out does not remove carbon.

How do I know this?

A while ago I thought I knew how to clean a rifle barrel. I was only using Wipe Out till patches came out clean. Barrel's clean, right?

Wrong.

I took the rifle to my gunsmith for some work. He scoped the bore to see if doing the work was worth while on the rifle (checking barrel condition). He asked when the last time I cleaned it. I told him it was clean.

He told me to have a look and told me it was full of carbon.

We then JB'd the bore twice.

JB'ing the bore is this:

Saturate a patch with JB and roll it around a worn out brush for the caliber. Short stroke the bore from chamber to muzzle. Pay more attention to the throat area. Do this till your arm is worn out. Rest. Keep going.

Clean the bore with some Shooter's choice and patches to remove the JB.

Scope the Bore. Mine still had carbon. Repeat.

I go after the Carbon, then the copper.
KG-1 is a good product, M-PRO 7, or any top engine cleaner will do the trick.
I have used the above they work!

IME,

Carbon is under the copper.

1. Powder fouling
2. Copper fouling
3. Carbon fouling

Attack in that order.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
IME,

Carbon is under the copper.

1. Powder fouling
2. Copper fouling
3. Carbon fouling

Attack in that order.

Yeah---someone understands!!!!! It is Layered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
IME,

Carbon is under the copper.

1. Powder fouling
2. Copper fouling
3. Carbon fouling

Attack in that order.

I think ya got that a little out of order, since the bullet passes thru the bore first and the powder and carbon after it, the carbon has to be on top of each layer of copper...in successive layers.

http://www.6mmbr.com/borecleaning.html

quote:

Remove the Carbon First, then Attack the Copper
Here is what we recommend for an "average" factory barrel. After 25 rounds, or when accuracy degrades noticeably, spray some MPro7 or GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC) down the bore from the muzzle. (Insert bore guide in breech first. Keep your MPro7 or TEC in a small plastic pump bottle for muzzle application). Let that sit a bit, then follow with a patched soaked with the same cleaner. Repeat. SharpShoot-R Carb-Out and Slip2000 Carbon Killer work really well also, when applied with soaking wet patches. Then, apply the same MPro7, TEC, Carb-Out, or Slip2000 generously to a bore brush, and run the brush through the bore 3-4 times, breech to muzzle.

Allow some dwell time between strokes. Always use a wet brush. GM TEC cleans a little faster but it has some dangerous solvents, so handle with care. MPro-7 is non-toxic, non-flammable, non-corrosive, and biodegradeable. It comes in liquid or gel, and is also sold as "Hoppes Elite" cleaner. Carb-Out (from the makers of Wipe-Out) is new, but looks very promising. When used with a brush, it has removed baked-on carbon that usually requires abrasive pastes to remove.

Here's the brushing method we recommend: Pass the brush all the way out the tube, and unscrew it before the next pass. Brush breech to muzzle only. Do NOT draw the brush back down the bore. (A reverse pass, even with a "clean" brush, just drags fouling residues back into your rod guide, where they can be picked up and passed back into the barrel on the next forward pass.) Clean the brush and wipe off the shaft of the cleaning rod before each pass. After 3-4 brush strokes, run a damp patch through the bore again once or twice. Then run a tight-fitting dry patch to remove the carbon cleaner.

The point of all this is to get 90% of the powder/carbon fouling out BEFORE you attack the Copper. And, always clean in a way that does not drag debris and fouling back in the bore.

Like I posted IME -in my experience
That is wrong.
I've used Wipe Out until all the copper was gone. IOW, patches came out devoid of color, then scoped the bore. All that was left was carbon

JB'd to remove it.

I do not believe a barrel can be "clean" without a brush. I don't care if wipeout sits in there for days. The ONLY way anyone will know if the bore is clean is if you use a borescope.

I use KG cleaners, BBS, Shooters Choice/Kroil 2:1 ratio, Montana Extreme 50BMG, and my favorite I got from an AR member...I think it is called warthog 11 or something like that. Got it several years ago.

I've never used any form of "paste" or the like.

I buy what rcamigula says, just wish I could find brushes that would allow me to short stroke a bbl. All of those I've tried are too tight to be pulled back through the bbl without exiting the muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by Nomo4me:
I buy what rcamigula says, just wish I could find brushes that would allow me to short stroke a bbl. All of those I've tried are too tight to be pulled back through the bbl without exiting the muzzle.

Plastic brushes have more give. And, you have to find out where to stop the stroke before "losing" the brush/patch out the muzzle. I use plastic brushes for Bore Tech as well -- earlier in cleaning regimen.

quote:

Remove the Carbon First, then Attack the Copper

I bet the person who wrote this meant "remove the powder fouling first". Powder and carbon are not the same.





Powder

I will try Dewey nylon brushes and BBS. Will try this first to clean out the gunk, then use Wipeout. I will let you guys know my results.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Remove the Carbon First, then Attack the Copper

I bet the person who wrote this meant "remove the powder fouling first".
Powder

I'll bet they meant what they said!

quote:

Originally posted by Nomo4me:
I buy what rcamigula says, just wish I could find brushes that would allow me to short stroke a bbl. All of those I've tried are too tight to be pulled back through the bbl without exiting the muzzle.

I assume you mean for the JB treatment.

Use a worn out one for your caliber or use one that is a caliber smaller.


Rusty,

I have scoped 4 of my rifles to check the cleaning proceedure. After all the copper has been removed verified by clean patches coming out of the end of the bore treated with Wipe Out, I have scoped all of the bores with a Hawkeye Borescope.

Carbon is what is left. There is no copper. You can see copper. Therefore you must remove the copper first to get to the carbon. The amount of carbon will vary depending on how long it's been since your last JB session!

Try this.

After you finish a range session, open or remove your bolt and view the bore from the muzzle end. You will be able to see some copper wash in the grooves more than likely. If you can see copper, it is on top of whatever else is there. In My Experience with my 4 rifles I have scoped and my gunsmith's umpteen years of experience, this process:

quote:

1. Get back from the range after shooting anywhere from 60 to 80 rounds. Use Shooter's Choice and patches till all powder fouling is gone and the solvent begins to work on the copper (some blue or green on the patch)

2. Use Accelerator and Wipe Out after plugging the chamber with a shotgun bore mop on a segment of cleaning rod. Leave in for 2 hours while I do something else or overnight if it's at night.

3. Patch out bore.

4. Repeat till copper is gone (no color appears on patched out Bore treated with Wipe Out for 2 hours. How many time depends on how good your barrel is. My Brux on my 6.5 Creedmoor actually showed NO copper when scoped even after 30 rounds down the tube before cleaning. Factory barrels may take a few treatments.

5. Every 200 rounds, JB the bore to remove carbon.


You can get all the copper out and the powder fouling but carbon really effects accuracy if it is not removed periodically. The only way to see it is with a bore scope. The bore will appear grey. A carbonless bore will be bright and shiny. You can also see carbon taking up the 90 degree "corner" where the grooves meet the lands with a scope. JB to get it out!

....is what works.



I still think the guy meant "powder fouling"

I was able to break open my rifle and look down the bores. So, if copper only covers a portion of the bores, then carbon covers everything?

Until the guy says powder foulings, I'll take him at his word!

Don't hold your breath!


Unless u use Sweets

You get a layer of powder fouling, copper fouling carbon fouling etc from EVERY round fired...so it is layer upon layer, upon layer...and at different points in the barrel and different fouling components, from every shot.

Unless you have a borescope and inspect the barrel at each cleaning round through the barrel you never know for certain where or how much.

You want to remove carbon use some Mercury QuickSilver or other brand of carbon removing spray, there are several you can find at ANY auto parts retailer,

If you want a totally squeaking clean barrel plan on spending the rest of your life with a cleaning rod in one hand and a borescope in the other.

For the most part most of these cleaning arguments are totally overdone and of little actual value. Way too much analizing.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
I primarily use Wipeout for bore cleaning, but have noticed alot of black "gunk" coming out on the patches even after 24hrs. Is this carbon? I have been thinking of using BBS with a nylon brush first, then apply Wipeout. Any comments?

Wipe out or Wipe Out Patch Out works best when you have removed the carbon first.

I use Hoppe's No 9 to get rid of the carbon then use Wipe Out.

I sometimes use Hope's in between Wipe Out applications as well
to remove carbon layers which have been exposed by the copper removal.

.

I will try BBS first, then Wipeout. That should take care of copper and carbon.

This stuff is great on carbon - Mercury/Quicksilver power tune
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/QUICKSIL...&hash=item5d25d99aeb
(I have bought from this guy in the UK, but I'm sure you can find it elsewhere).
The other cleaners I like are patch out and Montana Extreme copper cream

Mercury power tune is an aerosol. I have heard good things about KG-1 (liquid) but haven't tried it yet.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:

For the most part most of these cleaning arguments are totally overdone and of little actual value. Way too much analizing.

Luck

Thats right. A couple of years ago I was at the range with a competitive shooter, he shot several 5 shot groups you could cover with a fingernail (100 m, prone, no rest). I asked how and how often he cleaned his barrel and he said he cleaned it lightly after each trip to the range and removed copper about each 500 shots, but now its been about 1000 since I did it. The class he shoots use 6,5x55 and they shoot the barrels hot, new barrel each 4-5000 shots.

Every barrel maker, every rifle maker, ever shooter...EVERYBODY...has their own way of cleaning and everyone thinks their way is the right way...I don't know for sure if there IS a right way, except you do need to clean at some interval to keep the rifle shooting the most accurate...although I have a 22 that has NEVER seen a patch much less any other cleaning product and it's like the Energizer bunny...it keeps on going and going and going...I bought it 45 years ago.

I used to shoot with one ol'boy that used two patches after each string...the dry patch from the previous string with 4 tiny drops of Hoppe's #9 (then BBS when it came out) from the smallest syringe he could find, pushed through once, then a new dry patch which he kept for the next string...etc. He won his share of matches, got as much accuracy and barrel life as those that pumped the cleaning rod through the bore like a concert violinest playing the Bee song. I never saw him doing any extra cleaning at home OR any other cleaning products. He might have been an extreme case as he was also well known for frugality.

Moly presents a different problem and in todays world of extreme accuracy there HAS to be different procedures, but for the average hunting rifle if you shoot more than a box of ammo a year a once a year cleaning with WO and an oil patch is about all you need. Any more shooting and you should probably do the cleaning a little more often...how often...your guess is as good as mine.

I give all my rifles, pistols, shotguns a good cleaning starting in December whether I've shot them all or not. It takes a good two months and I use up a lot of patches and cleaning "stuff". Some get stripped down, some just get another oiled patch and a good wipe down with an oily rag. None are in perfect condition...THEY ALL GET USED (usually) at least once a year and sometimes abused accidentally, but they all shoot much less than 3/4" groups with specific loads.

I don't go nutz with the cleaning procedures...sometimes is is a pleasant chore other times it is a PITA.

Just do it and enjoy what you can and don't blame bad groups or missed shots on a "dirty" bore...the "dirty" bore is mostly behind the trigger.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
It takes a good two months and I use up a lot of patches and cleaning "stuff".

Wow, two months to clean all your guns. I am jealous! lol

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I go after the Carbon, then the copper.
KG-1 is a good product, M-PRO 7, or any top engine cleaner will do the trick.
I have used the above they work!

without having to gain anything from any of the products mentioned, I did an experiment with my Sako I Varmint in .204Ruger:
Following exactly the same procedure (two wet patches, wait for 5 mins, wet brush, patch till clean patch, repeat the process twice with each product) I cleaned the gun with M-PRO7 first and KG1 straight after.



(second and third rows is MPRO7 and the fourth and fifth rows is KG1. First two patches are ones that I run through the gun first to take the loose stuff)
See the first patch after brushing with KG1...So far as I am concerned there is nothing out there that removes powder/carbon deposits any better than this.

Finman

quote:

Originally posted by Finman:

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I go after the Carbon, then the copper.
KG-1 is a good product, M-PRO 7, or any top engine cleaner will do the trick.
I have used the above they work!

without having to gain anything from any of the products mentioned, I did an experiment with my Sako I Varmint in .204Ruger:
Following exactly the same procedure (two wet patches, wait for 5 mins, wet brush, patch till clean patch, repeat the process twice with each product) I cleaned the gun with M-PRO7 first and KG1 straight after.



(second and third rows is MPRO7 and the fourth and fifth rows is KG1. First two patches are ones that I run through the gun first to take the loose stuff)
See the first patch after brushing with KG1...So far as I am concerned there is nothing out there that removes powder/carbon deposits any better than this.

Finman

What kind of brush do you use? brass, nylon?
I noticed with my brushes, every time I ran one through the bore after a clean patch the next patch would be dirty.

this particular experiment was done with a phosphor bronze brush. In this particular gun, I know that after the second brushing (with KG1) I get no more black stuff on the patch, and definitely not at the amount shown here.

Hope this helps,

Finman