I think I have started a post on this or any other forum maybe four times since I got on the www in 1995. Back then it was mostly me and Al and you know what a bore Al is/was.

Still, I have learned something lately--nothing to do with brass cleaning--that one was posted mainly from frustration about newbies prattling on about miracle brass cleaning procedures that Ron Polpiel [sic?] might have invented and marketed to the uninitiated.

What I have learned will possibly be of interest only to those people who are serious enough about precision shooting to have bought, and learned how to use a borescope. I'm thinking that those without one will find this post to be mainly a bore, pun intended...

Some years ago there was a lot of hoopla concerning accuracy degradation thought to be throat erosion but actually due to excessive carbon build up in the barrel. This build up was alleged to occur just at the neck of the case and was fused onto the steel of the throat of the barrel. The folks mostly concerned about it at the time were predictably, the BR and long range varmint shooters.Unfortunately, at that time we did not have borescopes which the "average guy" could afford and we had to guess at remedies for the problem.

So--such a problem, not observable, and its solution, also not observable, were shunted aside and other things were considered more important.

Years pass............

Enter Mr. Tony Boyer as an author. I think most anyone who knows about Mr. Boyer and is not a scrubby sourpuss who thinks Tony is just lucky and he,(the sourpuss) knows better how to win BR matches----has bought the book. I like the book mainly as it is a sort of repository of everything good you ever learned about precision shooting, all in one place, and the author reminds you of things you forgot or problems and procedures you had moved to the back burner. I buy EVERYONE'S book on BR or varmint shooting because I am not a natural sharpshooter and I am afraid I will miss something or forget something. Therefore I can say, with some slight degree of authority, that this book is worth buying if (see above)you have the need.

So--the carbon ring which he mentions in the book----I don't seem to have one???!!!???!!!

I looked with my borescope at a 6BR and a 30BR barrel/throat which I shoot a lot and I could not see such a ring. Not being a world beater BR shooter, or even vastly experienced with a borescope, I looked again. Still no ring. I asked around--people just shrugged and said "I Dunno." I had no choice but to let it go at that.

Recently, I had the opportunity of comparing notes with Mr. Boyer and I found out a couple of interesting things. Well, maybe 3. I use a different bore guide than he does and it makes a difference as to where the brush/patch begins cleaning the barrel/throat. His is a lot more constricted than mine and so I get more throat cleaning---BUT---this does not erase the carbon ring.

People of my generation or older will get this right away.. Sometimes, you know what you expect to see and you do. Like a traffic sign that says "yield" or "stop" and you know what it is so you can read it. You think. Then you take the eye test next time your license is due to be renewed and you can't read it!!!!! You get your glasses and lo and behold!

Apparently the carbon ring is like that-- you expect to see a nice chamber tapering from the shoulder to the leade and there is this little tiny shadow that you see--maybe--or not-- and the shadow is just the curvature of the shoulder. Yes? NO! It's the carbon ring!!!

Now me not being a naturally gifted shooter, I have been doing pretty much the same procedure Tony Boyer recommends in his book to deal with this problem, although I have been doing it since--well a few decades back--without being able to check on it. After the confab mentioned above I looked at this area of the throat/barrel with my BS and then brushed like hell-----hey--there was something going on there. A few more applications of elbow grease and I had that carbon ring wiped out. This produced a significant improvement in a barrel I thought was shot out and was waiting on a new one. It may be that my rings are not so apparent because of the difference in bore guides--mine do not restrict a brush in the appropriate bore, but the removal of the faint lil ring I did have make a big difference. I have revisited several barrels. I now am forced to agree that if you shoot a rifle, you have a carbon ring.

Looking at a fired case and seeing the soot on the case necks, it is obvious that there will be carbon also in the neck area of the chamber.
For this reason I have always not just confined to cleaning the barrel but also the chamber with an oversized bronze brush.
And my borescope tells me that I am right in what I'm doing. Carbon build up is absolutely no issue for me and never has been.

Good on you. I never had a good way to verify my throats were clean before getting the BS. While I got some traces on oversized mops used after brushing as you have, I was never sure. What I took for shadows revealed by the BS turned out to be a slight carbon ring, even though I had been going after it all this time. Now that I know what I am looking at, it's easy to see it when it reforms.

Again it's a lot like when I look at the satellite menu without my glases, the shows I know are on about now, I can read. Movies that could be any title I cannot.....funny how that works.

Incidentally, there is a valuable section in TB's book about reading the carbon deposits on the outside of your necks. This is a subject upon which I had heard so many varying opinions I was not really paying close attention.

Does Mr. Boyer say anything about GM Top Engine Cleaner for removal of the carbon ring?

The short answer is no--at least not in his book. The longer, sorta smarmy answer is that the substance you mention is made up in at least large part of the miracle chemical, unobtainium. That is, all the boosters of that liquid seem to praise the old formulation which is not made anymore, along with the original 8028, pre-'64 Winchester Model 70's, and T322.

It's really odd that in a sport/hobby as wedded to technological advancement as this--the old myths hang on like leeches........then again maybe that's why--or maybe the mossbacks are just more vocal.....?

I`ve heard of this before, and for some time have every so often used a tight patch with either JB or Rem Clean with short strokes in the first couple inches of the barrel to help with it. I don`t know that it is getting it all-no scope- but accuracy hasn`t degraded in my rifles that can`t be attributed to other causes either.

The ring of which we are talking is probably not eradicated by doing what you mention-- I was doing that too every 3rd or 4th firing (depending upon the cartridge and barrel) and then went to the slightly oversized brush method. You need to have a reasonably tight fit and stiff brushing action that a patch will not provide without getting stuck.

Once I knew what I was looking at (the area just ahead of the spot where the case mouth is located at the time of firing) in the leade/throat of the barrel, it was fairly obvious that I had not got this area clean. The fact was made clear to me by using the brush and rechecking and then swabbing with a solvent soaked mop etc.. etc. until the borescope showed metal, not carbon. It was not really hard to clean this area using those tools and techniques. It will probably be easier since I now know where and how to look. I guess the alternative for those without borescopes is to clean way past the point of overkill.............again thie degree of potential accuracy loss is measured in tenths of MOA.

Ammamnn,

Good to know that if I ever write a book I'll have at least one buyer....

Thanks for this. I've seen much in forums about this, but it was mostly along the lines of JB or Iosso on a patch will sort it out.

Can you share your fix in detail, or must we buy the book?

Funny how serendipity works....

I have always cleaned ALL my rifles with oversized bronze brushes....6 m/ms for my .22s; .30s for my .270/7mms; .35s for my .30s, 8mms & .338s; even .45s for my .404s. That goes for long range across-the-course barrels, short range benchrest competition barrels, hunting rifle barrels, you name it. Have also always used large stiff brushes for cleaning my chambers (mostly shotgun brushes), and even bigger ones with large flannel patches on them for cleaning the locking lug recesses.

I've never owned a borescope, and feel no need to spend $600 or more for one now either. I have just used oversized brushes because of the way they "feel" when being used. The designated caliber brushes always have felt too loose to me for me to believe in their effectiveness.

Anywho, have never worried about my target rifles shooting well enough to win with and my hunting rifles doing well enough to kill with. They do.

That to me is the ultimate test.

When I first started competition, I worked out a method which works for me, and I've stuck with it. Don't know why it works, don't know which part is necessary and which part is not. Don't care.

I just enjoy my shooting and do the (very boresome) cleaning methodically and reliably after every shooting session.

(Really have two different procedures...one for jacketed bullets and another for cast. The jacketed bullet method includes the use of a mop as well as brushes, while my cast procedure uses no mops.)

Whatever works for you is the very best method.

If the carbon "ring around the collar" spooks you there are several carbon cleaners available...GM, Mercury boat motor, both very nasty to use, sniff, get on body, lick, etc and Sinclair has at least one that doesnt require full body armor to use...Bore Tech's C4 carbon remover.

Personally...unless you're competitive in the extreme, running a patch or two just after your last string while the barrel is warm with Patch-0ut, then maybe a couple overnighters with Wipe-out usually leaves a sqeaky clean bore.

Luck

Slip2000 Carbon Killer Impressive stuff!

Again--as someone mentioned this business does not really signify in the vast majority of factory rifles, and especially those used for most hunting and plinking, etc....

ARWL- if you write a book after winning as many matches and shooter of the year and world championships as TB, you will sell more than one book I am sure.

Canuck, you may be onto something with the oversized brushes used at every cleaning, I think I had trouble seeing the ring because I was using very tight fitting brushes purchased from Russ Haydon and also the fact that my bore guides all end well before the ring begins which allows my brushes to work the ring better than some of the tapered guides I have seen. I have used the oversized brushes I got from Russ on a chamber cleaning rod which I rotate rather than stroke in order to clean the bit of ring that I do get. When I tried to use the over sized--a 6.5mm on a 6mm bore--as a regular bore brush, I could not get it to go through the bore. I regularly dispose of brushes that feel loose to me-- other people have told me that those brushes were still good--their opinion is well, their opinion-- they like patches that go through too easily also........as far as I can recall this carbon ring thing when mentioned by BR shooters has been a build up that needs to be addressed after a yardage has been shot, in short range BR, somewhere around 60 shots. I've been keeping an eye on my throats with my BS and it seems to be true that a little bit of build up is not eradicated until and unless I give it the rotating brush treatment after 50 to 70 rounds.

As far as borescopes go, you need not spend 600.00 on one now that Vision Optics has brought out their fiber optic scopes--well I guess they have been around a long time, but were not advertising where a lot of shooters were looking. I got mine for much less than the price of a Weaver t-36 scope. It may cost a bit more these days, but what doesn't?

I am always happy to compete against someone who does not think that borescopes are worth using; I need any advantage I can get. Unfortunately, around here more and more people are using them. I guess if I were smart I would not mention them anymore, anywhere.

Still, I have to repeat that I have seen and heard many many claims by people and also companies touting the great results of various miracle cleaners and I have tried a great many of them, thankfully at no cost to me, because the vast vast majority of then DO NOT WORK AS CLAIMED - the proof is in the borescope. I have only seen one fairly credible claim for a miracle cleaner--this was for GM top oil--the OLD formula made with unobtainium--by a fairly reliable BR shooter who also had a borescope....did he know how to use it?--We may never know......

I have a bore scope, compete and do not shoot factory rifles and yes the carbon ring is a problem.

The product that my Smith who is a HOF shooter as well tested and found that worked the best is Iosso which is what I use.

The HOF does not carry much weight outside your world.

Ammamnn,

I'd forgotten about this thread...

After reading this I scratched around on the net a bit again looking for something I'd once seen about the carbon ring. Anyhow, I came a cross a post somewhere where guys had recommended a good soaking and brushing with Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil.

I have some around as I use it on my pistols as a general lube.

I swabbed out the bore with a good dollop of the Mobil 1 and ran a brush up and down probably 15 times. Then I left the rifle lyning flat for two days. I then went back to cleaning it. The amount of gunk that came out of a rifle that had been cleaned with all sorts of high level products, including some soakings, JB'd every 200-300 shots etc. and that seemed spotless to me was startling.

I don't have a bore scope yet, but this may be worth looking into if you haven't tried it and feel inclined to give it a go. I obviously can't provide educated comment because I havent' scoped the bore, but something was going on there!

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
The HOF does not carry much weight outside your world.

If you are satisfied with mediocrity then so be it. Well some people are not smart enough to learn from the best---not my problem. My goal is to put every round where it is supposed to go and if that means getting information from some of the most successful shooters, builders and instructors on the planet then so be it. What you have always failed to understand is that some of strive to be the best and that includes a properly maintained rifle.

Ignorant not stupid people are always a challenge on internet boards. Please continue to revel in your ignorant bliss.

I also shoot with several of the engineers and ballisticians with bullet companies who do not share your opinion.

If anyone is interested I will post the borescope verified procedure for using Iosso to clean the throat.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
The HOF does not carry much weight outside your world.

If you are satisfied with mediocrity then so be it. Well some people are not smart enough to learn from the best---not my problem. My goal is to put every round where it is supposed to go and if that means getting information from some of the most successful shooters, builders and instructors on the planet then so be it. What you have always failed to understand is that some of strive to be the best and that includes a properly maintained rifle.

Ignorant not stupid people are always a challenge on internet boards. Please continue to revel in your ignorant bliss.

I also shoot with several of the engineers and ballisticians with bullet companies who do not share your opinion.

What opinion did you see above? I think I am correct in stating the obvious. A HOF shooter is barely known outside the world of benchrest. Your attempt to gain credibility by claiming association with an expert is pathetic. All you do is parrot the work of others. Are you happy with that level of mediocrity?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
The HOF does not carry much weight outside your world.

If you are satisfied with mediocrity then so be it. Well some people are not smart enough to learn from the best---not my problem. My goal is to put every round where it is supposed to go and if that means getting information from some of the most successful shooters, builders and instructors on the planet then so be it. What you have always failed to understand is that some of strive to be the best and that includes a properly maintained rifle.

Ignorant not stupid people are always a challenge on internet boards. Please continue to revel in your ignorant bliss.

I also shoot with several of the engineers and ballisticians with bullet companies who do not share your opinion.

What opinion did you see above? I think I am correct in stating the obvious. A HOF shooter is barely known outside the world of benchrest. Your attempt to gain credibility by claiming association with an expert is pathetic. All you do is parrot the work of others. Are you happy with that level of mediocrity?

Have you ever won a match EVER?

Ever even won a relay?

Ever won a State 1K Title?

How many HOF points do you have?

Rest my case--don't like to have to do this but you are in the weeds old man sorry but a fact is a fact.

Hosses Hiney
Quit sending me threatening PMs.
Hanging out with other shooters with vague titles makes you exactly nothing.
Oh yeah I own 2 rifles barreled by TJ Jackson.
That confers nothing to me.

So you compete with jacketed bullets BFD?
What is the smallest group you have ever shot with a tang sighted 45-70? Same with a .40-65?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Hosses Hiney
Quit sending me threatening PMs.
Hanging out with other shooters with vague titles makes you exactly nothing.
Oh yeah I own 2 rifles barreled by TJ Jackson.
That confers nothing to me.

So you compete with jacketed bullets BFD?
What is the smallest group you have ever shot with a tang sighted 45-70? Same with a .40-65?

HAHA--that is a good one! If what you said was true you would know it by now! I am being nice now go and do a big job (you know what happens when you do a big job in bed ) and go nite nite .

The question to the gentlemen still stands? I thought so---never and none. Well everyone is a "great shot" on the internet and you personify that definition.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Hosses Hiney
Quit sending me threatening PMs.
Hanging out with other shooters with vague titles makes you exactly nothing.
Oh yeah I own 2 rifles barreled by TJ Jackson.
That confers nothing to me.

So you compete with jacketed bullets BFD?
What is the smallest group you have ever shot with a tang sighted 45-70? Same with a .40-65?

HAHA--that is a good one! If what you said was true you would know it by now! I am being nice now go and do a big job (you know what happens when you do a big job in bed ) and go nite nite .

The question to the gentlemen still stands? I thought so---never and none. Well everyone is a "great shot" on the internet and you personify that definition.

What a cry baby...
So tell us all just how good you are.

quote:

Have you ever won a match EVER?

Ever even won a relay?

Ever won a State 1K Title?

How many HOF points do you have?

I've never done any of those. I don't know what most of these terms are. I guess that makes me a bad gun cleaner?

I am sure there is a point here? It interesting to see y'all paw the ground. Just my opine.

Boss Hoss, I'm just a varmint shooter, but would be interested in your throat cleaning methods. I don't own a bore scope.