I just finished talking to my local hot shot gunsmith. He says not to use Sweet's as it will surface harden your barrel and promote fire-cracking. Has anyone any info about this? He says Wipe Out is a better choice......

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I just finished talking to my local hot shot gunsmith. He says not to use Sweet's as it will surface harden your barrel and promote fire-cracking. Has anyone any info about this? He says Wipe Out is a better choice......

Afirmative on the B.S.

I've heard that ammonia will promote fire cracking but can't give you a direct citation. The test was done by someone with a borescope and in a benchrest barrel.

More BS!

quote:

Originally posted:
I've heard that ammonia will promote fire cracking but can't give you a direct citation. The test was done by someone with a borescope and in a benchrest barrel.

Testing is a whole field of science by itself. For tests to be of any use at all, they need to meet several criteria, two main ones of which are that they be both reliable and valid. Another is that control be exercised over the tests.

To be reliable means they must produce the same range of results every time when run with the same materials under the same circumstances.

Valid means they must actually test what one believes he is testing.

I suspect many, if not most, tests designed by those not familiar with the physics and chemistry of both metals and bore cleaners would fail both as to reliability and validity.

As to controls, that can mean several things. First, that conditions really ARE the same, so that some unaccounted for phenomenon isn't biasing the result. Second, that comparative benchmarks are established before the test, so one can tell the testing really is producing the results. Again, many, many "tests" fail in both regards.

It would be better for most folks to say..."I tried doing such & such, and afterward found so and so. I SUSPECT it was caused by...."

There's a lot of difference between that and scientifically arrived at, empirical, proof.

Smart post AC.

Here we had a fella using a lot of sweets at one shoot. When he got home he found the stuff had eaten a hole in the heel of his sock.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eprod...ct?saleitemid=225250

Try this stuff once and you'll give away all of your other Ammonia based copper and lead removers. This stuff is that good! It contains no Ammonia, will not etch a barrel regardless of how long it's left in, and is completly bio degradable. The stuff even has rust inhibators in it. It clean and easy to use and not messy like all those foaming mess makers are. I've tried every Copper remover ever made and this stuff beats all of them hands down. Read all the reviews on Midways page. Every one 5 stars. Won't hurt any gas system it gets into, which makes it perfect for AR-15's M-1's and M-1A's. Bill T.

He probably has a higher mark up on wipe out.

I have a problem with a rifle I had built so it was sent back to the barrel maker. He just got through telling me not to use ANY ammonia based cleaners in the barrel because of etching and firecracking. He stated that if you use an ammonia based solvent you better make damn sure you run patches of another solvent to clean out the ammonia. He recommended Hoppes or Shooters Choice. If you don't clean out all traces of the ammonia it can damage the barrel. His example was a guy with a new gun and the excitement of it all. He's at the range shooting some groups, cleaning with ammonia, but not being too careful about removing it. He says firing rounds down the barrel with ammonia in it will "frost" the barrel. He says it can be removed but only with a lapping hone.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I have a problem with a rifle I had built so it was sent back to the barrel maker. He just got through telling me not to use ANY ammonia based cleaners in the barrel because of etching and firecracking. He stated that if you use an ammonia based solvent you better make damn sure you run patches of another solvent to clean out the ammonia. He recommended Hoppes or Shooters Choice. If you don't clean out all traces of the ammonia it can damage the barrel. His example was a guy with a new gun and the excitement of it all. He's at the range shooting some groups, cleaning with ammonia, but not being too careful about removing it. He says firing rounds down the barrel with ammonia in it will "frost" the barrel. He says it can be removed but only with a lapping hone.

Care to share the name of the barrel maker?

I work in an aerospace machine shop. They have banned the use of Windex anywhere on the shop floor. If you are caught using it, it is reason for termination. These warnings are posted all over the shop. The reason is a while back one of the hand finishers used Windex with Ammonia to clean some very critical, highly polished, parts, and scrapped them because the Ammonia in the Windex attacked the finish. Refinishing them would have taken them undersize. Ammonia and most metals do not get along well. The Ammonia doesn't know if it's removing steel or copper. That is why I use Bore Tech Eliminator instead. It is chemically formulated to only remove copper. Bill T.

And I'm positive that the amonia in Windex is the exact same solution and combination of ingredients as the amonia in Sweets. I, along with thousands of other shooters, have been using Sweets 7.62 in our barrels, with no harmful side effects, for years. Use whatever you wish but please, don't degrade and slander a fine product like Sweets 7.62.

quote:

Originally posted by DocEd:
And I'm positive that the amonia in Windex is the exact same solution and combination of ingredients as the amonia in Sweets. I, along with thousands of other shooters, have been using Sweets 7.62 in our barrels, with no harmful side effects, for years. Use whatever you wish but please, don't degrade and slander a fine product like Sweets 7.62.

+1

quote:

don't degrade and slander a fine product like Sweets 7.62.

No one is "slandering" anything. The fact remains that Ammonia can, and will damage barrel steel if it is left exposed to it for too long. Today, why take the chance when there are better products avaliable to do the same job without the risk or stink of the Ammonia based products? Bill T.

How long did you folks leave thr Windex on your parts?

quote:

Originally posted by DocEd:
How long did you folks leave thr Windex on your parts?

I don't know the exact amount of time because I work weekend nights and this happened on the weekday day shift. It was a big deal because it involved very high dollar critical parts. Some years back I worked at a place where we made high number runs of small brass lathe parts. We would then tumble them in a viabratory tumbler much like we reloaders clean cartridge brass. Someone got the bright idea of adding Simple Green to the ceramic media. After about an hour the brass parts came out BLACK. You have to watch what's in these cleaners or bad things can happen real fast. Bill T.

quote:

one of the hand finishers used Windex with Ammonia to clean some very critical, highly polished, parts, and scrapped them because the Ammonia in the Windex attacked the finish.

Bill, were those parts of almunimun perhaps?

I don't think ammonia based cleaners are harmful to steel IF the stuff isn't allowed to DRY on the steel surfaces. Keep it wet and the steel isn't supposed to be damaged at all.

Old time high power rifle competitors, back in the 30s, plugged the chamber, poured stronger ammonia into the bore, plugged the muzzle and left it in overnight to remove copper fouling without harm to the bores. (According to Elmer Keith anyway. I'm old but not THAT old!)

Many armorers shops in the Fed Govt. still use "Blue Goop" to de-foul bores. The USSS regularly uses it on their 300 Win. Mag. CS rifles. If you think Sweets is strong, you should get a whiff of this stuff.
I'm not suprised that the brass turned black. Sweets turns some cleaning rod jags black.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
Bill, were those parts of almunimun perhaps?

I'm pretty sure they were an Inconel or Waspalloy based alloy. Bill T.

Craigster:
The barrel maker is Walther. After talking to them I will never use an ammonia based solvent on my barrels. You don't need it anyway if you clean often as you are supposed to. He is the second man "in the know" who has told me to scrap any ammonia based cleaners. The other is Score High Gunsmithing here in Albuquerque, and he knows his stuff.

This is not any slander on Sweet's or any other particular company. Just like Billt said, why would you want to use ammonia when it is known that it will harm steel when there are so many other cleaners out there that will do the job with no fear of etching, frosting or hardening of the barrel?

I've been using Wipe out and the Accelerator that you can get for it and it takes about the same amount of time as if I were to use Sweet's.

quote:

I'm pretty sure they were an Inconel or Waspalloy based alloy. Bill T.

Com' on man, help me! Talk English, and use small words! Are those alum alloys?

Inconel and Waspalloy are very high Nickel content alloys used in the manufacture of high temperature jet engine components. They are extremely tough to machine. They are not hard, but rather very tough and "gummy". The material is actually stronger at 1,200 degrees F. than they are at room temperature. It is very expensive material to buy and even more expensive to cast, forge, and or machine. With that said it's the only material that can be used in these type of products. Tool life is very short lived. It is not at all uncommon for our lathe dept. which consists of 6 machines to accumulate a 2 pound coffee can full of inserts in a weeks time if all 6 are cutting this stuff 24/7. I can easily hold over $300.00 of inserts in one fistful to give you some idea. Bill T.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Craigster:
The barrel maker is Walther. After talking to them I will never use an ammonia based solvent on my barrels. You don't need it anyway if you clean often as you are supposed to. He is the second man "in the know" who has told me to scrap any ammonia based cleaners. The other is Score High Gunsmithing here in Albuquerque, and he knows his stuff.

This is not any slander on Sweet's or any other particular company. Just like Billt said, why would you want to use ammonia when it is known that it will harm steel when there are so many other cleaners out there that will do the job with no fear of etching, frosting or hardening of the barrel?

I've been using Wipe out and the Accelerator that you can get for it and it takes about the same amount of time as if I were to use Sweet's.

I use Wipe Out. I also use Sweets. Have never had any problems with either. But of course I use them according to directions from the makers (or in the case of Sweet's, from the late Mr. Sweet).

I do think it is appropriate to note that because a firm has acknowledged expertise in one field, such as how to cut and rifle barrels, does NOT necessarily mean they have any expertise at all in another field, such as the actions of various chemical ingredients on various types of steels.

They may like to assume such a mantel of expertise in all things "gun-barrel related", but it doesn't make it either reliable information, or of any value.


To be reliable and valid,such information needs to come from a reputable firm which is in the business of testing the effects of chemicals on substances. It will likely not be cheap to come by, but at least it will bear a good relationship to reality.

Otherwise, most such info is on a quality par with a statement that "driving a Geo causes pregnancy" . Many thousands of fertile young females DO drive Geos. Hundreds, if not thousands, of them get pregnant every year. But that observation still probably does NOT mean that driving Geos makes girls pregnant, regardless what some fabulously good auto mechanic may say.

Albertacanuk

So you think that Bill T's input on this topic is bogus?

He says...............

I work in an aerospace machine shop. They have banned the use of Windex anywhere on the shop floor. If you are caught using it, it is reason for termination. These warnings are posted all over the shop. The reason is a while back one of the hand finishers used Windex with Ammonia to clean some very critical, highly polished, parts, and scrapped them because the Ammonia in the Windex attacked the finish. Refinishing them would have taken them undersize. Ammonia and most metals do not get along well. The Ammonia doesn't know if it's removing steel or copper. That is why I use Bore Tech Eliminator instead. It is chemically formulated to only remove copper. Bill T.

I think that this IS RELIABLE INFORMATION FROM A RESPECTED FIRM on the subject.

You don't agree?

First of all, I think you need to re-read my post.

I did not say ANY specific person's information was necessarily bogus.

What I said was that asking a barrelmaker what effect ammonia has on barrel steels will not produce good information unless he/they have solid information based on testing by people who know what they are doing when they run the tests.
The same applies to producers of other gun parts, solvents, bedding materials, or even gun-cleaning suppliers....or aerospace firms.

If they DO claim to have such info, one might ask for a copy of it.

As I said before, I have used both Wipe-Out and Sweets....the Sweets for 28 years. Still have no apparent damage from it.

When there is time, I use Wipe-Out, because I agree that unless you have to, and in the absence of truly expert, competent, test data, why take a risk?

However, when shooting at events such as the National Championships, I always used Sweets between every relay. There was no time to use Wipe Out, what with all the other things a person has to do to be ready for their next time on the line. At least, that is my opinion/experience, so I used both with no significant concerns.

Maybe I've just had 28 years of good luck, maybe not, but until it causes some ill results for me, I'll just keep on keepin' on.

If you want to do otherwise, they're your guns, do whatever you want.
-----------------------

Just for something else to chew on...it has long been recognized that ammonia and water are destructive to bores IF the ammonia is allowed to dry in contact with the steel. That's why in the old days when national teams used "ammonia dope" to remove fouling, they plugged the chamber end of the bore, put rubber tubing onto the muzzle, and filled the entire bore and tubing.

They let the whole thing sit muzzle-up until they figured the fouling was dissolved (a time period learned by practice), then poured ALL the ammonia out, flushed the bore immediately with water, then immediately applied a neutral oil to protect the then chemically clean bore from oxidation. When they did that, no reported damage occured to their bores either.

If the aerospace parts had been kept fully immersed in Windex until rinsed and then oiled immediately with a neutral oil, perhaps they would still be using Windex....probably not, though, as they don't need to use that particular product. Again, though, only competent testing by a reliable lab could establish that.


--------------------------------------


Another thing to consider. It may not matter whether the ammonia in Windex and that in Sweets are alike, or even identical. The other ingredients of the two (Sweets & Windex) are NOT alike and those in Sweets may be at least partially there to prevent the very effect you guys are blaming Sweets for.


So absent any specific, qualified, scientific testing of Sweets itself on barrel steels by a nationally recognized test lab when used AS DIRECTED, any disagreement on the subject is entirely based on ignorance. (Not stupidity, am not insulting anyone. Just "ignorance", a lack of possession of facts.)

Pax vobiscum, y'all.

Billt is an experienced machinest and owns more guns than most folks,I trust his firearm insight and knowledge of all metals and I suspect I will get rid of my ammonia based cleaners one day as this past summer I got overwhelmed by vapors from ammonia bases solvents and passed out.I was sick as a dog and coughed up sick and wrong things for a week.
I will try some Bore Tech Eliminator Billt,it will be awhile as I can't get up alot right now,bad back problems again.Our local places don't have it so I'll order some.Take care.Drop-Shot

Jim Sweet was one of Australia's premier competitors in fullbore competition, winning some 6 Queens Prizes. He also was a leading shooting coach and literally wrote the book on competitive rifle shooting here in Australia. As well as that though, he was an industrial chemist by profession, and knew what he was doing with the solvent he developed.

While scare stories continue to pop up, from the uninformed, misinformed or those with their own interests, Sweets 7.62 solvent has been around for decades, widely used too, so you could hardly say it isn't well-tested. For a metallurgist like me all that stuff about fire-cracking and surface hardening and so on is just utter nonsense - downright laughable some of it.

The stuff performs well, you just have to follow the directions. In particular don't leave it in too long, as (unlike oil-based solvents) your bore is unprotected until you wipe the stuff out and put an oily patch through.

Sweets is as good of an Ammonia based bore solvent as it gets. With that said, today there are better products. That isn't taking anything away from Sweets 7.62, it's just that you can accomplish more in less time, without the danger of "leaving it in too long", or putting up with the smell, and the wife's whining. To me, warnings like that fall into the same category as "Not recommended for pregnant women". If it's no good for them, it isn't going to make me any healthier. The stuff is either good, or it's not. "Too long" falls into the same list as "A little bit pregnant". I don't like change, and stick with useful products I've used for ages. But honestly, for all you guys who are addicted to Ammonia solvents, try Bore Tech Eliminator. You'll be giving away all of your other smelly Ammonia and messy foaming cleaners. Yeah, I tried the foam. It "sorta worked". Then my Golden Retriever licked up a glob of it off the floor before I could get to it. 3 hours later I was cleaning up dog barf and bore foam off the kitchen floor. What was left made a neat target for my .22-250. Bill T.

Must say,I am surprised to see a statement that following warning directions is a is a little like reading a statement that someone is little bit pregnant.

Sweets is good, useful, medicine for a sick (fouled) bore. If one doesn't follow the instructions for using medicine, I hope they never get in a situation where they have to take Coumadin for their own heart illness!

One cannot expect to get well, or stay well, or "heal" their gun barrel if they don't follow the directions plainly stated on the medication!!

I'm with BillT on this one.

I've heard all the input from both sides and all from intelligent, qualified people I'm sure.

Now for me it's common sense. Any chemical that is that caustic has got to have some detrimental effects on the metal you are trying to clean of copper. I've used Sweet's and when it gets on your hands it even screws your skin up. I've also read about making your own solvent for copper removal by using household ammonia and a couple other simple ingredients. They clearly state that the stuff can screw up your barrel if you leave it in too long. So there it is; the active ingredient in Sweet's, I believe, has to be hard on the bore, even if used as carefully as possible.

There are better alternatives.

I can think of any number of things not recommended for pregnant women, but no harm at all for the unpregnant

No doubt Bore-Tech Eliminator has its adherents. However AFAIK the active ingredient is monoethanolamine, which among other things is caustic, as well as being an irritant to the skin, eyes and on inhalation. You might want to ask Bore Tech for an MSDS.

Like ammonia it also has a tendency to absorb moisture and therefore the same mechanism for corrosion if left in too long. Isn't that canvassed in the instructions?

rcamuglia: your "common sense" doesn't accord with the science. Both ammonia-based solvents and solvents like Bore Tech Eliminator attack copper but not the steel. If they didn't attack copper there'd be no point to them! The effect on your skin is irrelevant: there's any number of things that'll hurt your skin but do no harm at all to steel, and vice versa. There again you were prepared to believe that using Sweets would "surface harden" your barrel

quote:

Originally posted by dan_oz:
Both ammonia-based solvents and solvents like Bore Tech Eliminator attack copper but not the steel.

If that were the case it wouldn't matter how long you left Sweet's in your barrel. It does. Bill T.

quote:

Originally posted by billt:

quote:

Originally posted by dan_oz:
Both ammonia-based solvents and solvents like Bore Tech Eliminator attack copper but not the steel.

If that were the case it wouldn't matter how long you left Sweet's in your barrel. It does. Bill T.

Once again, it is not because the ammonia attacks the steel. It is because you have a barrel unprotected by oil while the solvent does its work. You probably also have some absorbed water in the solvent. Leave water in an unprotected barrel and see what happens .

As I've also said, precisely the same caution applies to MEA, and thus to your Bore Tech Eliminator, for precisely the same reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by dan_oz:

Once again, it is not because the ammonia attacks the steel.

I'm sorry, but here you are badly mistaken. There are warnings all over the place about how Meth cookers are refilling propane tanks with Ammonia to use in cooking the illegal drug. This weakens the tank itself, along with the valve to the point both can, and do rupture.

"Anhydrous ammonia is very corrosive and weakens the structure of the tank."

http://www.reubenyau.com/warni...a-and-propane-tanks/

http://www.fireengineering.com...ion=GLOBE&dcmp=GLOBE

There are links to this everywhere. Point being is Ammonia can and will destroy the integrity of steel, barrel or otherwise. As far as Bore Tech Eliminator, it does the same job without all of these corrosive effects. In fact, it actually has rust inhibators in it, and is also bio degradable. You can read all about it here.

http://www.boretech.com/products/eliminator.shtml

Ammonia is bad stuff. There are much better products that won't impose any risk to your health, or gun for that matter. Bill T.

All you guys defending ammonia have faults in your argument.

So what is it that does the steel harm, water or ammonia?

billt has ferreted you out. Seems to me, if you leave the Sweet's in your barrel too long it will harm it. Not any water in Sweet's or any other solvent. Heck, where some of you guys live, the humidity is so high if it were water, all your barrels would be messed up.

On the label of Sweet's it states not to leave it in the barrel for more than 15 minutes. I bet that it is because it attacks the steel after it has attacked the copper fouling and the manufacturer knows that.

This is letter for letter off the Bore Tech Eliminator bottle:

"Bore Tech's Eliminator penetrates deeply into the steel to clean and protect against corrosion."

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
All you guys defending ammonia have faults in your argument.

So what is it that does the steel harm, water or ammonia?

billt has ferreted you out. Seems to me, if you leave the Sweet's in your barrel too long it will harm it. Not any water in Sweet's or any other solvent. Heck, where some of you guys live, the humidity is so high if it were water, all your barrels would be messed up.

On the label of Sweet's it states not to leave it in the barrel for more than 15 minutes. I bet that it is because it attacks the steel after it has attacked the copper fouling and the manufacturer knows that.

Well, to but it bluntly, your assuptions are not correct.

First of all, it is Oxygen that causes oxidation....barrel rust is a chemical compound resulting from Oxygen combining with the iron in steel.

Damage to bores occurs with ammonia IF ammonia is allowed to remain in the bore, because ammonia is highly hygroscopic...that is, it attracts water. As you may know, water is one part Oxygen for every two parts Hydrogen.

Ammonia left in the barrel not only attracts water, it holds it in immediate contact against the barrel steel. Hence, rapid rusting if ammonia is left in the bore too long.

Ammonia flushed from the barrel still attracts water until it has absorbed all it can hold, but it does not hold it against the barrel steel when not in the barrel, which is why it is recommended that one remove it after a short time.

Air does not normally lie in contact with a barrel in concentrated (liquid) form. Further, air is mostly Nitrogen, not mostly Oxygen. As a matter of fact, excess Oxygen in air can kill both people and other life forms as well.

Also, very humid air is only a relative expression...that is, describing a relationship. The relationship is a description of how much water is in the air, IN COMPARISON WITH HOW MUCH WATER AIR WILL HOLD.

So, even 100% humidity only means that air air has in it 100% of the water vapour it is capable of holding. (Which is not a great amount, explaining in part why rain comes down in drops rather than as a solid sheet of water.)

The instructions with Sweets to remove it after 15 minutes are to keep it from attracting and holding a concentrated chemical source of oxygen (water) against the steel. The added instructions to then swab the bore with a neutral oil are to protect the bare (chemically stripped, really clean) metal from the water in the air of the atmosphere.

It isn't too darned difficult to understand, if one is WILLING to understand.

I suggest you NOT use Sweets, though. It is rather obvious to me you will worry yourself sick if you do.

Mention has been made of ammonia absorbing water. Thing is, ammonia is a gas. Ammonia based cleaners have ammonia gas dissolved in the water that they are made up of. I have no doubt that ammonia and other chemicals attack steel to some extent but does it attack the steel enough to matter? If users have been happy with the stuff for a long time it means that any such attack is insignificant over the life of the barrel. The thing is, water dissolves steel and it is the dissolved steel that rusts! But it takes a little acid in the water to actually dissolve the steel. That's why bare steel wetted by dew rusts so readily. Dew water is acidic. Now, ammonia is basic, so it should actually prevent oxidation of the steel, not cause it. But it is a gas so it could very well penetrate the steel surface. Given enough time, it could penetrate deep enough to do damage. In a short time, the penetration might be minimal and could dissipate out again once the source is removed. Who knows? (And don't forget the effects of electrolyses).

Water consists of oxygen and hydrogen. Add to the mix something that consumes the oxygen and you have ionized hydrogen able and willing to penetrate steel. Ever heard of hydrogen embrittlement?

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
I have no doubt that ammonia and other chemicals attack steel to some extent but does it attack the steel enough to matter? If users have been happy with the stuff for a long time it means that any such attack is insignificant over the life of the barrel.

What you are saying is true in regards to the barrel. But when you use these type of solvents it gets into other things. Gas systems in semi autos, inside magazine wells, and places it's tough to get it out of. If you don't it is going to cause problems in regards to rust and corrosion. That is why I prefer to use a product that not only contains zero Ammonia, but works better, plus, (and it's a very big plus), I can be assured it isn't going to cause rust, and or corrosion if it gets anywhere I don't want it to. And rest assured I've cleaned enough guns in my 56 years to know it will! Bill T.