Hi Guys

I know that I'm not the first one to think of this, but, can the proper application off heat to a barrel while soaking it help solvents penetrate and thus speed up the process? example, heat the barreled action to 250 - 300 deg using an accurate thermometer so that no damage can occur. I'm thinking also along the lines of heating a stuck nut or bolt, creating stress between two different elements causing carbon to want to break free. Again, making sure that I don't go over the critical temp where the metal's structure may start to change.

I'm no metallurgist and don't pretend to know how or why to heat a barrel to clean it. However I do know that cleaning a rifle immediately after shooting (at the range when it it hot) is the easiest method I've ever used. A 50/50 mixture of Kroil and Shooters Choice and a half dozen passes down the barrel clean out most of the carbon/copper and will hold in the barrel for days if necessary until you get a chance to finish. PM me if you want a good, brushless method.

Heat and barrels dont go together.A barrel that shoots extremely accurate every time week after week has not seen heat.

A common Hair dryer pointed down the barrel for a few minutes works wonders.

By the way; a barrel that has never seen heat has never been fired.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Michalski:
I'm no metallurgist and don't pretend to know how or why to heat a barrel to clean it. However I do know that cleaning a rifle immediately after shooting (at the range when it it hot) is the easiest method I've ever used.

+1

When the pores are open.

thanks for the info. I have a rifle that takes forever to clean. years of carbon fouling in it. I wound up reading up about carbon and was surprised to find out that there are many forms of carbon. What I thing I'm dealing with is Vitreous carbon which over prolonged time of shooting forms and is extremely hard and impermeable so solvents that are normally used do little or nothing it help loosen it. I simply acts as a carrier to remove the loose stuff. I am now looking for other ways to loosen this particular form of carbon.

Sure stresses the importance of cleaning guns regularly

thelongranger

I have sent you a PM.

Vitreous or glassy carbon to which I was reading about and is found being a pain in the arse to those cleaning an AR often find them chipping this crap off the bolt. Found this in Accurate Shooter: You guys are discussing two different types of carbon.

There is the type of carbon that is mixed with all kinds of other compounds, and usually cleans up quickly and easily.

Then there is the vitreous carbon that is carbon (compounds) that have been subjected to heat and pressure for possibly hundreds of times. Two good examples of vitreous carbon are the carbon ring just in front of the case mouth and the vitreous carbon that forms in the back of the AR bolt.

The two different types of carbon require different methods of removal. Vitreous carbon is almost pure carbon atoms that have formed extensive bonds with each other, and will require physical removal with a brush, etc.

Carbon compounds can easily be removed with many of our gun cleaning products before they become vitreous carbon.

Jim


Found this as well

Carbon is capable of forming many allotropes due to its valency. Well known forms of carbon include diamond and graphite. In recent decades many more allotropes and forms of carbon have been discovered and researched including ball shapes such as buckminsterfullerene and sheets such as graphene. Larger scale structures of carbon include nanotubes, nanobuds and nanoribbons. Other unusual forms of carbon exist at very high temperature or extreme pressures.

AS I researched this, Vitreous(hard carbon, possibly as hard as diamond)was said to be literally impermeable to to anything. So anything we use on it cannot penetrate or loosen it. No manufacturer of our favorite bottle of barrel cleaner works. Thus it must be removed mechanically((brush) which is slow due to the carbon being so hard or by energy (heat).

The reason I thought heat would possibly help would be that because metal and carbon may expand at different rates and should it be enough, it may create enough tension between the two that some of the Vitreous carbon breaks off or is loosened, speeding up the process of removal with a brush.

Gunsmiths have soldered on sights to gun barrels, so, it is apparent that some heat can be applied to the barrel, but, how much can be applied? Barrels on a 22lr is softer metal than that of a high power rifle. Questions I am trying to find out.

My opinion only: Heat from a hair dryer works to get the barrel gradually very warm. I do this for convenience as you can just set the Dryer at the bolt opening flat on the bench and go away for a bit. Boiling water does the job too and works much faster. Generations of Military fellows knew and used the boiling water plan followed by cleaning and oiling. Neither method will harm a thing if done "right." I use the water, because boiling water is somewhat a hazard, very rarely. Near boiling water on Black Powder rifles all the time.
The safest way is to simply place the Boiling or near boiling water in a large pan on a safe floor level surface, and then place the rifle muzzle in it. Use a rod, brush, brush / patch as you prefer to simply pump water us and filth down. The water contact heats the barrel up well and you can get it as hot as you are willing to provide hot water. You can also pore the boiling water down the bore but that is the hazardous way...
Then you clean and remove water, oil etc. as normal.
Give it a go and let us know.

Just get some J&B.

Wrap a patch around a used brush and apply the J&B to it. I usually thin the J&B a little with Prolix.

Remclean is also a mild abrasive cleaner like J&B, it works very good also, and as it is thinner it is a little easier to use.

I do have JB and have used it. The reason that I'm concerned with using it is that I'm concerned that it will remove the metal off faster than the carbon in the barrel. That can't be good. Boy does this drive home the importance of barrel maintenance for me.

Ultra sound and carbon break down article for those interested and may try to experiment or build one. usable info http://ena.lp.edu.ua:8080/bits.../1/80-145-ESS-13.pdf

Another idea that someone my find interesting. What if mineral spirits is placed into the bore and let sit so that it can penetrate the vitrous carbon, then let the barreled action slowly drop in temp to below -20 where mineral spirits freeze. The idea of water freezing between rocks comes to mind. Does mineral spirits expand when frozen?

From msds

Appearance:
Clear, colorless l
iquid
Odor:
Petroleum solvent
Initial boiling point:
1
50
°C
(30
2 °F)
Freezing
point:
-
20 °C
Vapor Pressure
:
0.
248
kPa
@ 20
°C
Specific Gravity
:
0.
780
@
15
°C
Solubility:
Immiscible in water
Dynamic viscosity:
0.725
centipoise (cP) @ 2
5
°C
Vapor density (air=1):
4.
35
Flash point
:
42
°C
Auto
-
ignition temperature:
2
96
°
C
Upper flammable limit in air:
0
.
6
% (v/v)
Lower flammable limit in air:
7.0
% (v/v)
Molecular weight
1
40
g/mol
e
Evaporation rate, (NBAC = 1):
0.
14

Once vitreous carbon has formed it is difficult to remove. Cleaning your gun well after each use is a lot easier. Water is a carbon solvent and will work as well as anything but it will take time. Most shortcuts have at least the possibility of ruining your barrel before removing vitreous carbon. Heating the barrel beyond 200 - 225 degrees F. is not a good idea. Oil is unlikely to dissolve or carry the carbon away from the barrel. If I ever got a barrel that was in the condition that I understand you to be describing, I would first try slugging it and if that didn't work I would replace it.

Barrels can take a lot of heat before the heat itself will have an adverse effect. You can use a propane torch on them all day long and the barrel wont care. But what would concern me in this exersise is heating a barrel and then quenching the bore with cold solvent. That could have the effect of making the metal brittle.

I have never had a need to try such a practice, and dont really see the point. There are some real good cleaning products out thesedays.

I won't try anything on this particular rifle. It shoots extremely well. It seems to produce a lot of carbon, and with the amount of rounds I put through it, it will never be totally clean. Just looking for a way to clean farmer guns that are boasted to have never seen a bore brush.

here's another one that could be considered. What if the barreled action is put into boiling water then brought to the freezing point. I know that makes almost everyone cringe, but can the water get between the barrel and carbon then expand during the freezing process, breaking away the vitreous carbon. I am thinking, lost cause and the next step is replacing the barrel.

Mild heat will not harm anything, in fact one of the recommended methods of cleaning the barrel of a black powder firearm is to pour boiling water in the barrel. This is primarily to remove the water soluble corrosive salts left from combustion of black powder.

A hair dryer certainly would not hurt, warming the barrel would speed up the chemical reaction that occurs in the chemical removal of copper fouling. If I remember my chemistry correctly, a ten degree centigrade rise in temp usually doubles the rate of a reaction.

Two things:

1) A chemical reaction will take place at twice the speed every time the temperature is raised 10 degrees C~18degF. So if dissolving a spoon full of sugar in a cup of 10degC~50degF coffee takes 1min then it will dissolve in 30sec when the coffees temp is raised to 20degC~68degF.
So heat will speed any chemical cleaning up.

2) Water is the only liquid that expands as it solidifies. Sorry!

The usual way, in Britain, in the days of corrosive primer ammunition was to pour boling water down the barrel.

Indeed special offset, like a dog leg, funnels were sold for this. Some with a chmaber shaped insert on the end.

Those barrels then got pretty hot!

Could you heat up the cleaning solution in a safe way, maybe place the jar in a pan with hot water. Would this work instead of trying to heat your barrel and maybe damaging the finish or worse?

LR- your thoughts about boiling water seem to me to be pretty low risk. After all, caustic bluing temps are a great deal higher. I say pour some boiling water (a whole tea kettle full) down the bore and follow up quickly with a brass brush. A few repetitions of this won't take much time, and probably will give you a quick idea of whether you'll ultimately be successful.

Regards, Doug

Thanks for the info/ideas. I was dealing with the dreaded black ring. here is the link and part of the article


The Dreaded "Black Ring"

The next area of fouling accumulation is in the front part of the chamber, known as the Throat and Leade Angle. Some shooters ask me what the difference is between the two terms, and the best way I can explain it is that the leade angle is the slope which starts at the flat wall of the chamber and angles up into the lands and grooves.

This angle varies by reamer specifications, and at what depth this transition begins. When measured from the breech face, will impact how tight of a feel the shooter will notice on the bolt handle as they close the bolt on a live round.

This leade angle is found in the area of the chamber called the “throat.” The throat can be seen as the part of the chamber where the leade angle is located.

Knowing what the terms mean will help a shooter understand where this nasty little bit of fouling likes to collect; the dreaded Black Ring.

During the initial combustion of the round, burning gasses loaded with various bit of fouling blast out from the case mouth right when the bullet leaves the case. At the point where the bullet has just separated from the case mouth, hot gases consisting of burning powder (carbon), a tiny amount of vaporized lead from the base of the bullet, and burnt primer material blast into the chamber’s throat.

At this point, the gases are at their peak temperature and reaching their max pressure. As this mixture is blasted into the chamber’s throat, it quickly cools and some of this fouling begins to stick.

In the photo above, the bullet's direction of travel is from the lower right part of the photo to the upper left part of the photo. You will also notice a distinct black line. The darker side is where the bullet sits, and the lighter side is what is covered up by the brass case. This photo is from a semi-auto which uses the gas pressure to cycle the bolt. As you can see, fouling also builds up in the chamber, but to a lesser extent.
PictureFouling build up in the throat and leade angle.
Since the bullet is actually traveling in front of this hot mess of gasses (it has already started down the barrel) the fouling continues to build up in this area faster than anywhere else in the barrel.

The lead bullet is not pushing out the fouling in this area.

Subsequent firings continue to build until this ring begins to actually touch the bullet itself, which can either push the bullet off-center in the chamber or act as a giant speed bump for the bullet to squeeze past before it starts down the barrel.

This is why so many shooters in rimfire Benchrest competition focus on the chamber and first few inches of the barrel when they scrub.

They are trying to remove this black ring because it causes a gradual fade in accuracy, resulting in larger groups and bullets to drift out from the desired point of impact.

You may have heard shooting term referred to as the “window” of accuracy. This window represents a range of fouling in the barrel where the rifle shoots the best. Typically at the end of this range, the black ring is starting to impinge on the bullet by pressing into the bullet’s side, or the fouling has grown into a long sticky mess which grabs at the bullet when it passes by.

In sporting rifles with large chambers, it can take a long time for this fouling ring to built to the point where it begins to contact the bullet when chambered. In target rifles, it can be noticed within a single shooting session.

In a semi-auto rifle, this black ring builds even faster because the dirty gasses linger longer due to the blow-back aspect of the action. As the glasses blast the case and bolt rewards, they further cool in the chamber leaving deposits on the chamber walls and throat.

As this ring builds up, it can prevent the next round from fully seating in the chamber. This then leads to more problems such as; failure to fire, failure to chamber fully, and the worst; out-of-battery firings.

When a round is fired out-of-battery, this means that the bolt is not fully closed, leaving small part of the case unsupported on the bottom near the rim. In this situation the brass case often bulges, or even ruptures, sending hot gasses through the action. This can damage magazines and give the shooter quite a scare as these hot gases blast out the rifle, either through the bottom, or the ejection port, or even out the rear of the action.
PictureUnfired brass case next to the Black Ring.
In this photo, I was able to slide the borescope into a pistol barrel through the muzzle and capture an image of an empty case inside the chamber.

You can see how the black ring of fouling is formed around the case mouth, and would be in contact with the sides of the bullet.

Keeping this area clean is paramount for accuracy, and later on I will describe exactly how to remove it.

The bullet's direction of travel in this photo is from the top right to the bottom left. I know for some who are not accustom to looking at borescope images, that this can be a bit confusing as to what exactly the photo is showing.

Not only will the black ring of fouling grow thicker, it also grows longer, working it's way down the barrel. Even with slow-fire shooting, this area of fouling will develop.

link to this exellent article
http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

Bench resters tell me the worse thing you can do is over clean a barrel, a barrel need not be squeeky clean as that ruins accuracey..I know for a fact that more barrels have been ruined by cleaning rods than bullets..

I clean a barrel with a bore snake most of the time and then clean it about every six months with Blue Goop or perhaps Wipe Out, oil it or grease it and put it away....Then clean it before I go shoot it again, but depending on the rifle I take fouling shots, my 06 takes a hundred rounds to come back to half inch so I seldom ever clean it, just run a bore snake thru that one.