The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gun Cleaning Forum "Ruined a barrel by cleaning"Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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This expression, or some variation of it, often pops up in forums such as this, and to me it seems, mostly without corroborating info. I would like to know more specifics. What cleaning practises will lead to ruination of a bore ? What cleaning products, if any, are the main culprits causing bore ruin ? What level of cleaning is safe and not a cause of bore ruin ? What part / area of a bore is most likely to be affected to the point of ruination ? I don't believe I have ever come across a bore so ruined, but maybe I didn't know what to look for. On the other hand I have seen only a few rifles that stopped shooting well due to bore corrosion, caused by nil to inadequate cleaning. Mostly this seemed to be infrequently shot rifles that were stored uncleaned for longish periods before being used again. I believe many shooters fall into this category. I assumed that burnt powder residue ingested moisture leading to rust pitting. I personally have had a couple of rifles that became much less accurate due to inadequate cleaning of powder residue. After rebarrelling these in Stainless Steel to obtain accurate rifles again I improved my cleaning technique with the aid of KG cleaning products and a borescope. I am not expecting to lose a barrel again due to inadequate cleaning. Thankyou for any info anyone cares to post. I am expecting to be educated here. Cheers Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | ||
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I have no “facts” to present. There are some practices that could logically lead to a deterioration of barrel if used frequently. The ones that come to mind are: using a stainless steel bore brush rather than a bronze copper coated brush, using a steel non-coated cleaning rod, not removing from the barrel aggressive copper removing or lead removing solvents, not using a proper bore guide and lastly not using a bore protective oil after cleaning resulting in surface oxidation. There may be other generally accepted caveats but I don’t remember what they are. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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With 2 of the most highly respected authorities, on all things pertaining to firearms, as regular visitors to this site, I would suggest you contact Norman Conquest or Atkinson and ask them to educate you on bore cleaning the proper way. NRA Patron Life Member Benefactor Level | |||
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The last barrel I saw that was ruined by trying to clean. It has a broken bronze brush stuck in the bore, and a Alum ramrod wedged in and STUCK. A new barrel alter all was well, and yes he bought a one piece cleaning rod and did away with old used brushes. J Wisner | |||
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Thanks for the replies guys. Wink, a couple of these things I routinely do ( use a steel, non-coated cleaning rod - one piece -, leave carbon and copper cleaners in the bore for up to several days ). I have no concerns with the one-piece steel rod and have used them for many years without incident. I have tried a bore guide but considered there was no advantage so stopped. As I mentioned I use KG products for carbon and copper removal. They say leaving these in the bore for extended periods is totally safe. My own observations support this. I believe use of bore protective oil is a bore saver and I use it habitually. Generally I clean a bore as soon as possible after use but if cleaning cannot be done for several days I'll swab a CLP saturated patch two or three times through the bore on a pull through. This seems to neutralise any corrosion starting until I can do a proper clean. JWisner, Wow, sounds nasty. A few times I've got a fabric patch stuck in a bore. Removing it makes me paranoid about potential damage. But, so far, so good. With a stuck patch I usually saturate it first with good squirts of CRC from breech and muzzle ends before carefully pushing it out with a cleaning rod minus attachments. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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Ive seen bores that were cleaned from the crown wallowed out to the point they had to be cut off and recrowned, mostly old winchester as a matter of fact.... I know of one bore that a friend of mine who only used aluminum sectioned rods, they do pick up trash on the grease or oil and make a bore and the used joint bulged a tad..rods when used improperly can damage a bore, but the culprit is the "cleaner or cleanee" If one cares to disagree be my guest, I will continue to use one piece steel cleaning rods and bore guides on ocasioons, but mostly bore snakes for the most part.. I don't mind brass brushes or Nylon brushes, as both are softer than steel..Ive never ruined a bore so if it ain't broke, I won't fix it..Its a situation of choice as I see it..and in most cases just some one looking for an arguement, not relating to the poster in this case I don't think..but I know folks that could destroy an anvel with a powder puff.. I clean a gun after hunting season, or after a rock chuck shoot, P dog shoot...I sure don't over clean one, a couple of passes with a bore snake at the shoots...Once a year for storage with rod and goop...Never hunt with a wet or clean bore, and firing fouling shots in camp is not allowed.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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i asked this question on a different site. i've heard all my life more guns are ruined by improper cleaning than anything else. i asked for real life examples. all i got was folklore. i DID get a lot of "don't clean the damn thing till accuracy falls off". thats my new motto. | |||
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This discussion reminds me of steel shot ruining shotgun barrels. When you ask who's actually had it happen you get lots of solid evidence like: "I over-heard at the hardware store that my neighbors great nephews friend bulged his barrel with one shot of steel ammo" or "You can ruin your shotgun if you want, but my Mossberg is too expensive to risk shooting steel shot". | |||
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Bartlein barrels will not guarantee a barrel that has been cleaned with Iosso bore paste. They show an example on their website of a barrel that was cleaned repeatedly with the paste and a non-rotating cleaning rod that has grooves worn into the rifling. Yes, the barrel quit shooting and the owner sent it in for warranty replacement. "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". | |||
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Actually ruining a barrel by cleaning will depend on YOUR expectation of accuracy. It's all about the expectation of accuracy since even if "ruined" the barrel will still shoot and might even be good enough for the user's intended purpose. Yes, I wasn't careful with a 22-250 and didn't use a bore guide and allowed the rod to flop out of the end and then dragged it back. I wore out the crown by this practice. The issue was remedied somewhat by cutting off 1/2" and re-crowning the barrel. I clean probably more than I need to (OCD) but I'm damn careful nowadays. The custom barrel maker have cleaning instructions which are easy to look up. They have them for a reason! Zeke | |||
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I purchased an M1 Garand which had a barrel which had the crown ruined by careless and repeated cleaning. A 30 cal. 150 gr. bullet could be inserted a good 3/4" into the barrel muzzle. This was caused by letting the cleaning rod contact the crown during cleaning. I purchased it with plans to replace the barrel which I did. At the time this was a common condition in the Garands that were available. | |||
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There might be the odd one, but nowhere near as many as some claim. | |||
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In this case, I have personally damaged 4 different guns with steel shot. 3 factory loads and one with only reloads. Now, it might depend on your definition of ruined. Mine is visible damage to the bore. On the mag 10, it was severe enough that it caused a previously tight patterning gun to go to cylinder bore effect. As to the OP, I also ruined a .22 barrel in my youth by cleaning it. Admittedly by improper process.
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Ive seen more than a few old winchesters with ruined crowns supposedly ruin by cleaning from the crown, and Ive seen some that hae been recrowned for "apparantly" the same reason???? All this ya gotta prove it, makes little since to me if its suggested or rumored, then give it some thought and make up your own mind...Im not going to clean from the crown without the protector, Im not going shoot steel shot in a steel barrel, Im not going to over clean a barrel because its not needed to start with and never was an animal killed with a clean barrel!  I have no proof, just my personal opinnion, its worked pretty good so far..Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Quite a lot of mine are....... You say this an awful lot. Why? . | |||
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Nope you may have hunted with a clean barrel but you have never kill an animal with a clean barrel, the killing bullet fouled the barrel in all cases..  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Now that is reaching......  | |||
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I have owned many dozens of firearms and never managed to ruin a barrel by cleaning one. I have always felt that it would take a particularly determined moron to do that. I guess I have never been that determined.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I was given a 7x57 95 Mauser that I had to cut off 2 inch's of the barrel. Wouldn't keep rounds on a 8x11 at 50 yards. Now she puts them mostly in one hole | |||
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I've come across milsurps that have been counter bored to repair/refresh the crown. | |||
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I ruined a barrel by cleaning at the shooting range. It was the 204 Ruger I built about 10 yrs ago. I shot 3 rounds in 3/8 in. and then I cleaned the bore for some reason. The next shots didn't get to the target, so I quit shooting this rifle and went home to look things over. I could not see a barrel knot on the outside, but when I used a brush I found a swell inside about 6 inches from the muzzle end, I did not look inside the barrel to make sure it was clear. The barrel was a cut rifled bore and shot very well before. The only thing I can believe happened was a part of the patch was left inside and the high pressure of the 204 cal. caused a very shallow knot. I replaced the barrel with a Shilen buttom rifled barrel and it would shoot the groups of .312 now. I have seen other barrels with flaws in the steel and would cause the rifling to come out. I have the old section of the barrel that ruined and some time I will take it to Shilens to find out if the steel was the problem. I LEARNED TO LOOK INSIDE THE BORE BEFORE SHOOTING A FRESH CLEANED BARREL. | |||
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I messed up a great barrel once with a caustic cleaning solvent (sweets) Since then, I use the foam type cleaner, and the traditional solvent (hoppes). ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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When all else fails, read the instructions. #5 Do not leave solvent in barrel for periods longer than 15 minutes. | |||
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IMO there are three things, sure to ruin a gun: sectioned steel cleaning rod aluminium cleaning rod, whether sectioned or one piece Lubricants containing Graphite Special care to the muzzle should be given, and no metal bore brush should ever reversed in the bore. I like my cleaning gear to be made of brass. Hermann formerly, before software update, known as "aHunter", lost 1000 posts in a minute | |||
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In my opinion there is only one thing that will ruin a barrel by cleaning, and that is the moron doing the cleaning. Come on guys, this is not rocket science just cleaning steel. And I'm not sure that perfection is necessary or even desired. (repeating: my opinion) NRA Benefactor Member US Navy Veteran | |||
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In so far as steel shot goes, most all shotgun manufacturers state that choke constriction when using steel shot cartridges should be no more than half or modified. Steel shot in factory loads is contained completely inside the thick walled plastic wads that are used in steel shot cartridges so the shot does not touch the barrel. If reloading steel shot this is an important consideration unlike lead shot which even in many factory loadings is not always contained within the shot cup portion of the wad. Lead shot is softer than barrel steel so does no harm to the barrels if it is in contact with the bore. Your Mag 10, if as you say it was a tight patterning gun with lead shot, likely had a choke constriction of three quarter to full so steel shot loads will open the tight choke or in some cases with real tight chokes will bulge the barrel just before the choke. Not all shotguns have to have the steel proof symbol (the Fleur-de-Lys) to be safe to use with steel shot, for example all Miroku, Browning and Winchester O/U and semi auto guns fitted with interchangeable chokes can use high performance steel cartridges, again provided chokes used are no more than half/modified. I use steel shot in my 1984 manufactured Miroku O/U with skeet and quarter choke respectively and in my semi I use a Patternmaster Black Duck choke which provides for longer range short string dense patterns with steel shot despite a constriction measuring just over a quarter choke. It is the wad detent feature of these chokes that creates the dense patterns and not so much the constriction. Nobody should be ruining shotguns with steel shot if they follow manufacturers instructions or guidance obtainable off the web. | |||
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Agree.. I went to SAAM school and they gave very good instructions on cleaning - how to, what to use and a prescribed method. Further, they said barrel break in is a myth. A Gunsite, we had a lesson in pistol cleaning. Summary - get the crud off, and go shoot. No extensive scrubbing needed. As a an engineer with some knowledge of steel and steel properties - it is not possible to mark up steel ( the steel used in modern barrels) with materials not as hard (Rockwell hardness) as the barrel. Common sense says that aluminum or some ridig plastic on rods is a good idea. Brass brushes make perfect sense. Be careful with solvents. Follow instructions to the detail. Solvents can damage steel but usually needs prolonged exposure. I cannot address the crown issues other than most crowns (if not all) are damaged due to bad handling, not due to cleaning. Shotguns are a bit different but don't need the cleaning rifles do. A swab of the barrel is fine. A baby butt smooth bore is not needed for a shotgun to shoot well. It is nice, but no big deal. ON shotguns, if you use steel, be sure the hardness of your barrel will handle steel. Older guns may not. In all cleaning issues - less is more. Get the visible stuff off, but don't sweat it. | |||
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On my rifles I only use Hoppes' No. 9. No lubricants or anything else. I have a one piece stainless steel cleaning rod and make sure the brass brush and hoop for cleaning pads fit seamlessly on the cleaning rod where the joint is. That's it. I have a 270 that's been cleaned many many times and still shoots nickel sized groups at 100 yards. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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That´s WRONG. As an Engeneer you should know, there NEVER is pure Alu on Alu outside. Aluminium oxidizes instantly, but in contrast to steel builds a tight barrier of Aluminiumoxide, which prevents further oxidation. Therefore Alu is considered "rustless". So far so good. The problem is, that Aluminiumoxide is, in my experience, TERRIBLY abrasive! Jointed steel rods and Aluminium rods are BAD! Brass or one piece steel rods are ok. Plastic coated rods also, if you regularly clean the residue off, which can embed. Hermann formerly, before software update, known as "aHunter", lost 1000 posts in a minute | |||
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I was in Victoria, Texas looking for a bargain. I found one, it was a Rock Island 1911 03 , the dealer made me am offer and I accepted with one condition. He had to convince me the barrel had good rifling's And then he started cleaning, scrubbing, scraping etc. He used up a lot of supplies, time and sweat, and then the rifling appeared. For years and years this rifle had been shot with 308" bullets without being cleaned, ; in the perfect world a .299" bullet should freely slide down and out the barrel, not so. I had to get serous with some recipe. I did call a few friends for help, they went straight to 'lost cause'. The barrel looks brand new from the inside. They know all they are ever going to know about methods and techniques. of cleaning. F. Guffey | |||
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Early on the old timers cut the crown back when the gun quit shooting and it was a fix, Ive seen a number of old guns with circumcision..Ive seen that work...what ruined the crown I had no way of knowing other than what the owner said..I have one that my granddad cut off about a 1/4 of an inch.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I have cleaning rods that are similar to cleaning rods that look just like the cleaning rods others use. Reloaders blame cleaning rods for causing the taper of the barrel. Some cleaning rods were one piece3, others came in sections, I taped the joints to prevent the joint from hanging on the edges. And then there is hot, metal cutting gas that escapes between the end of the barrel and bullet when the bullet clears the barrel. And they used lead weights and twine, some used chains and weights, not easy to push a cord and or a linked chain through the barrel, meaning both have to be pulled. Bad habits can have an effect on the barrel, I have tried to change methods, techniques, and equipment. Again, I found dumpsters full of material that was headed for the dump, I felt the material solved most of the perceived problems when cleaning the bore. Once this stuff is gone I could be out of luck, I asked my wife about replacing this material, she suggested washing it and or making it on a sewing machine. F. Guffey | |||
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On lever action rifles like the 348 and 45-90--M-71 and 1886: A pull through cleaning brush/patch attachment works wonders. Very easy on chamber, bore and crown. Will work on bolt actions, like the German issue Army pull thru kit. Smart-eliminates the rod. Avatar | |||
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Aluminum oxide makes for great sandpaper. | |||
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I have had exactly 2 Browning A5 barrels, with fixed chokes, come through my shop with 'ribs' om the outside from shooting steel shotshells. Could not tell the owner anything,,,,, Hell! Its Browning, Ya' can't hurt um with steel shot!". Later, found on Brownings web site in the "instructions", where it stated that only 'modern' barrels with factory interchangeable choke systems were to be used with steel shot, and to not use a choke tube tighter than "modified". | |||
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I got this from the late Din Collings, NZ's own legendary gunsmith. He said that he has seen many .22 barrels ruined by over cleaning where the rod bends inside the barrel and the steel rubs down the rifling in the middle of the barrel. He used to sleeve .22 RF barrels. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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This is another of those "truths" that someone once said and it's been repeated forever (especially since the internet by shooting experts whose only knowledge comes from the internet), and never personal experience. Just my opinion. NRA Benefactor Member US Navy Veteran | |||
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This is 100% true, Sir. I know, you know, but people seem to never "save" this. Aluminium rods and attachments are NOT GOOD. They grind on your barrel steel. Aluminium loop patch holders are ESPECIALLY bad! -> Use brass. It´s still possible to buy brass rods. Dewey brass rods are very good, and, as opposed to their coated rods, use STANDARD 8-32 thread. No adapters needed! Hoppe´s, Avid, Outers, and even some chinese makers ( Amazon ) make brass rods and attachments. Hermann formerly, before software update, known as "aHunter", lost 1000 posts in a minute | |||
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The German "Bundeswehr" cleaning kit is an especially bad item. The Alu "pearls" on the German kit will harm the bore, the system as a whole with numerous "threads" used on a loop is totally ridiculous ( = ineffective, and uses much too much cotton material ). Austrian Army ( "Bundesheer" )cleaning kits are much better, also pull through. But, as the German version, they use metric threads. The Otis system was the first improvement, but the Pro Shot "Tactical" jags are the REAL THING! The best there is! Jags, which can be pulled! And as jags they really bring the cotton patches 100% in contact with the bore. Hermann formerly, before software update, known as "aHunter", lost 1000 posts in a minute | |||
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This same many post have haunted these blogs for years with the same pros and cons..I believe the borre snake is the answer, but always a knuckle head to condemn the bore snake!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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