Crazy- I never intended that you made any type of personal attack against me. What I intended to ask, is that if you don't like the way myself and others handle the issue is what do you recomend? I do apologize for any confusion created. But I would be tickled for your answer.

My post in response to David Keith

quote:

quote:
David-I don't see any in fighting here, just discussion.[QUOTE]

Your response to my question to David Keith

[QUOTE] quote:

If you do not see the in-fighting, you are part of the problem.

While it does not directly name me it does have my questions in quotes above it and was in response to my question.

I don't see for a minute how you can draw this conclusion from what I have posted here. Exactly what problem do you think I am a part of?

quote:

J Tex, your just another example of a hunter that simply cannot set their personal feelings aside and think of the common good.

I don't have the least idea of what you are talking here.

quote:

You have some sort of personal problem toward me, and it is your problem, not mine. Put me on ignore or whatever is neccessary to not cause you so much mental anguish.

I have no idea what you are talking about here either. I find you mildly entertaining and very reactionary to those that disagree with you, but you cause me no mental anguish at all.....

quote:

I am not going to change my opinions because of you or the people like you.

I would never expect you to. You pay no attention to anyones opinion but your own. I wonder just what you are implying by "peop[le like you" though....

quote:

I am just as entitled to my opinion as you or anyone else.

Yes you are, I have never said otherwise. You have spoken strongly against mine though. I guess you think I'm not entitled to my opinion though???

quote:

I do not try to convince anyone that I am talking for the entire membership of this site.

I didn't realize I had claimed I was talking for the whole site, would you mind terribly pointing out where I did?

You have no idea of who I am or what I do for hunting and shooting sports in general. Your brush paints in awfully broad strokes though.

JTex, you Sir are reading way too much into what I am saying.

You are still calling me out, over something you are doing, and you do not seem to realize your doing it.

Instead of taking me to task over my opinions, why don't you come up with suggestions on how to make the "Discussions" between hunters on AR, less agressive.

quote:

I didn't realize I had claimed I was talking for the whole site, would you mind terribly pointing out where I did?

Here you go JTex.

quote:

In this thread you have criticcized myself and others who think the way I do. Let's hear your idea, you have told us we are wrong.

I respect everyone that has and gives an opinion, BUT, just like yourself and the other folks that seem to be having a problem with anything I write, I do not have to agree wioth those opinions. I do read them and evaluate them as to how they relate to my opinion, Just Like You Do, and if I do not agree with them, I say so, just like you do, No Difference.

Anti-Hunters can not be reasoned with, they do not listen to ANYTHING a hunter has to say, and until proven WRONG, I maintain that ANYONE that thinks they can say or do ANYTHING to change an Anti-Hunters opinion, they are living in a fantacy world.

And, Yes Sir JTex, regardless your protestations any time you respond to anything I write, it is in the form of an overt attack.

Since you cannot get the basics of what i stand for correct Crazyhorseconsulting there is no point in my furthering discussion with you.
For the record though I am against lion hunting full stop. Trophy hunting has been mentioned so often purely because thats what lion hunting is all about - who can get the best trophy!

On the subject of in house fighting, i as someone who does not hunt and does not particular like the practice but can see the value of it as a conservation tool in most situations would much rather see you disagree with each other than agree.

The disagreements i see here show that many who post here are ethical and conscientious in what they do. I would much rather see people question the age of animals being killed, the methods used, the practices of PH's, hunting outfitters than everyone just accept every hunt is ethical and goes well.

It is those who say things like you are allowed a year or so out mistake on age with a lion kill, i wouldnt wait for my PH to tell me its ok to shoot i'd just shoot etc etc that i worry about.

Disagreement is good so long as it does not result in personal attacks and name calling.

The antis are not winning because you bicker between yourselves, they are winning because very few of you stand up for your cause.

For ther Record Jolouburn you are an Anti-Hunter and your gloal is to get All hunting stopped and you are going to go about it anyway you feel will accomplih that objective.

Make all the protestations of innocense you wish too, the fact remains, if/when lion hunting is shut down I am highly skeptical that you and those that think like you will raise a single word of concern about the future of the species.

Yes, I am quite sure you like seeing hunters disagree, as from experience, few people like seeing an enemy unite to fight a common foe.

You had your 15 minutes in the spotlight, and you showed yuour true attentions.

As for this little tid bit:

quote:

It is those who say things like you are allowed a year or so out mistake on age with a lion kill, i wouldnt wait for my PH to tell me its ok to shoot i'd just shoot etc etc that i worry about.

If you will look back on My comments concerning huntng African Lions, you will notice two things:

1. I stated that were I too ever decide to shoot an African Lion, As Long As It Was A LEGAL Animal, in the country I was hunting in, that is all that is neccersary for me and I would shoot it. That is why as LEDVM and Aaron Neilson have pointed out what should be considered as LEGAL needs to be modified to help conserve the speices.

2. I have stated more than once, that I have no Damn Desire to Ever shoot an African Lion of any Age/Sex/Color.

Also, anyone with ANY actual knowledge of wild free ranging animals regardles of the species, knows without a doubt, judging the age of such animals, is a guessing game at its best.

It is one thing to know the age of a pet or a head of domestic livestock or animals born in a zoo, and something 180 degrees different in trying to determine the age of a wild-free ranging animal.

quote:

The antis are not winning because you bicker between yourselves, they are winning because very few of you stand up for your cause.

First "Antis" are not winning.

Second Shutting down hunting in Kenya worked out really well didn't it? Yeah...not so much...

Enlightenment must be welcomed. It cannot be force fed.

Unfortunately.

Jeff

Crazyhorseconsulting,

Unfortunately you are one of these people who only see's what suits his agenda in what people say.

If you would prefer all hunters to be complacent and agree on everything that is your perogative. Just as it is mine that it gives me hope to see disagreement amongst you as it means that some people still care that hunting is kept legal and ethical.

As for the 'last tidbit' you chose to reply to it wasn't even aimed at you. I can't say i've seen you state any of the points i raised.

May i suggest you are being a little on the touchy side.

Bwana,

The Kenyan situation is one i could go into and i think you would be surprised at what i would say, however this thread is about disagreement between hunters and i won't derail it.

As to whether the antis are winning or not i guess it depends on where you're standing to how you see it.

Hunters won't get anywhere though without standing up for what they believe in before it's too late. Winning or losing has nothing to do with you (generic) bickering amongst yourselves its about standing up and being counted.

I am often asked why i do advocate hunting, why i don't get your message out there! Is it up to me to protect the 'sport' YOU (generic) love so much or is it up to those who participate in it.

I'll continue to do my bit with regards to hunting in general as a conservation tool but i won't fight your battle for you.

quote:

Unfortunately you are one of these people who only see's what suits his agenda in what people say.

I see besides being an anti-hunter you are a pyschatrist also, good for you.

My only agenda, is to try and see that HUNTING, Period, is not lost to future generations.

quote:

I'll continue to do my bit with regards to hunting in general as a conservation tool but i won't fight your battle for you.

From what I see, your fighting your own battle and that is to get Lion hunting stopped, to clear the way for getting hunting for other soecies stopped.

Hunters having REASONABLE disagreements does not bother, my goal is to try to get HUNTERS to stop ripping each other apart.

If hunters, as a group, will start discussing issues in a reasonable manner, sans the name calling, the accusations, the attacks on each others character or experience level, and if nothing else, agree to disagree on any particular issue, then my goal will have been achieved.

See, your playing it real cool right now, you have seen a few individuals attacking me and my stance on the issue, and you are posting acting like you are the injured party and your sole purpose is in the best interest of the lions.

First off that is a lie, you care nothing about the future of the lions, you just want to get hunting for lions in any manner, stopped, so you can move along to the next species on your list.

Second, due to some of the comments made by fellow AR members directed toward me, you have taken the opportunity to insert yourself into the conversation taking their side to try and show them that you haave nothing but noble intentions, again a lie.

If other AR members feel that the best they can do is attack me, my credability, my motives, my experience or knowledge, that is their perogative. I just give my opinion on issues, and do not ask anyone to agree with them, buy into them or anything else.

That is the beauty and greatness of being an American, I have the Right to my opinion, regardles what anyone else, including a Brit anti-hunter trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes, thinks.

Many Thanks to Saeed for providing all of us, INCLUDING YOU jolouburn, this platform to express such opinions.

My goal is to see that future generations do not lose the ability to hunt. If fellow AR members or hunters in general do not share that goal, and are unwilling to work for the future of the sport and recognise people like you for the enemy they are, then pity the sport and what will be lost.

quote:

quote:
I didn't realize I had claimed I was talking for the whole site, would you mind terribly pointing out where I did?


Here you go JTex.


quote:
In this thread you have criticcized myself and others who think the way I do. Let's hear your idea, you have told us we are wrong.

"others" crazy, not "all", huge difference.

Crazy, there is a huge difference in respect for opinions between us, huge.

You response to what was a reasonable question to David Keith.

quote:

If you do not see the in-fighting, you are part of the problem.

I did ask you a reasonable question that you still have not even attempted to answer.

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Crazy- What do you suggest just sitting back and saying nothing? I don't think that would help anything either.

Maybe you don't have an answer, if not that is fine, just say so.

David did give an answer, a very good answer.

quote:

Discussions are fine, I'm speaking of the battering of others just because one doesn't agree with someones view. That's when discussion is no longer about learning but rather Internet head hunting, and for some, just for entertainment. We are under worldwide attack from those who hate us; would love to murder us and our families and stop the very way of life we love. When discussion goes out the door and the Trolls take over...I have no time or patience for that. Now, to make my simple point clear: I'm 100% behind discussion and sharing ideas, experiences and thoughts. But attacks against a person because one might not like baiting deer; hunting from a blind; using dogs to hunt game; this cartridge vs that cartridge, all in the name of bullying or fun at anothers expense, is just plain bullshit and in no way should be associated with sportsmanship. That my friends is just my humble two cents worth. If I'm now a target over that, fire away. LDK

I don't think I have ever done this myself, the battering of others, that is. If you can show where I did I would appreciate it.

My personal belief is that the attitude you espouse is more hurtful than mine. But there again that is just my opinion. It might even be the opinion of "others" also. Notice that again, I didn't say "all".

But hey, we all know what opinions are worth don't we?

quote:

But hey, we all know what opinions are worth don't we?

There is the only statement out of your entire post that is reasonable.

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Crazy- What do you suggest just sitting back and saying nothing? I don't think that would help anything either.

What I have been suggesting all along, which is exactly the same as others have been suggesting:

Thes is from the OP by Fritz Rabe:

quote:

I have never seen any of the Anti-hunters fight amongst them selves for their cause. They might be completely wrong about most things but they are winning because they fight as a team.
Not us. No. We call each other liars and bull shitters etc.

And this is from the post L.David Kieth made:

quote:

Two minutes later and the in-fighting begins. Point proven Mr Rabe. I belong to a group that battles anti-hunting, ranching, wildlife and human haters each day. I see this exact action only much more vile 24/7 and yes, they unite while we that love the outdoors, wildlife, hunting, guns and the way of our forefathers can't keep from slitting each others throats.

And this is where I disagreed with you:

quote:

David-I don't see any in fighting here, just discussion.

Calling each other names, using profanity, attacking each other because of our opinions, making accusations in regards to a persons knowledge or experience, is what Mr. Rabe and Mr. Keith were talking about. I see what is happening/what the two gentleman mentioned, as more than just discussion, evidently you don't.

That is your perogative and priveledge, but when you say others, or for that matter anyone feels exactly the way you do, you are going a step beyond any of my responses, because I am just giving my own personal opinion.

You take offence at that, and that is the problem in a nut shell. it does not matter whether it is me and you or whoever else. I am saying no more than what Mr. Rabe and Mr. Keith stated in their posts, until hunters stop attacking each other the anti' are going to win.

If you or anyone else believes that continueing the attacks/accuations/innuendos on each other is the way for hunters to defeat the anti hunting forces, go right ahead with your game plan, and we will all be the poorer in the end.

Did it do you any good to see that Jolouburn was taking your side in this?????

You Sir, have a reading comprehension issue. I am done with you.

YOU have blown this into much more than it was ever intended to be.

Second point. The anti's ain't winning.

The only one with a problem is you. The antis are winning because of attitudes like yours, that you can not see that is beyond me.

I am not your enemy, never have been. My goal is to stop situations like this one.

I enjoy hunting and evidently you enjoy hunting, but you simply can not set aside your personal attitude toward me, long enough to realize that the problem is just such an attitude.

The antis are winning and by the time individuals like yourself realize that making personal attacks against fellow hunters, simply because they did not/do not believe the exact same way you do, all of us that like to hunt will be the losers and you will still not comprehend the role you played.

Times have changed, and people in general do not view hunting as they once did. I do not have a reading comprehension problem Sir! You have taken a PERSONAL problem you have with me, someone you have NEVER ACTUALLY met or spoken to, and blown it way out of proportion. And you can not give a valid reason why, other than I simply do not agree with you. That is pathetic!

You claim to talk for others that feel the way you do, I do not claim to talk for anyone but myself.

The antis are winning, simply due to discussions like this one, and I am sorry that I did not resort to profanity like you were hoping I would, but you Sir aresimply not worth the effort.

I will continue to voice my opinion that hunters have to start acting civily toward each other if we hope to have a chance of putting up a decent fight against the antis. You can continue to stick your head in the sand and prertend npothing is wrong as long as you wish, I actually hope yopu are right, but I have my doubts.

Hey Crazy. Don't forget me. I don't agree either.

Are you kin to Dave Fulson?

No relation to Mr. Fulson, which I am sure he is grateful!

Disagreeing with me is fine. I actually prefer it when people disagree with me, because it let's me know that they have the ability to think for themselves and form their own opinions, that is the best sign of "Free Thought" in action. That is one of the corner stones, in my opinion, that helped America become America. I hate Sheeple, people that just go along with the hive mentality.

However, trying to get hunters, as a GROUP, to have discussions/disagreements/arguements and do so on a Civil Level. No profanity/accusations/innuendos etc. etc. etc..

They do not have to reach a concensus, a compromise, or anything more than just agreeing to disagree, just do it in a reasonable/civil manner.

That is not a really outrageous concept. Even heated discusssions can be conducted, as long as each person remembers that everyone involved is entitled to their own opinion on the issue at hand.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Second point. The anti's ain't winning.

I agree 100%.

To each his own, I hope you folks are right.

I see differently and that they are winning and unless I am mistaken, and I truly hope I am, especially on this one, everyone else is going to going to see one of their victories if Lion hunting in Africa is shut down.

i sincerely hope that the efforts put forth by LEDVM and Aaron Neilson and the folks they have been dealing with are listened to and the decisions that are made are based on fact not emotion.

I for one am a doubting Thomas, therefore I am rarely shocked or caught offguard when bad decisions are made by politicians and goverment operatives.

If lion hunting is closed down, that will be a major victory for the anti's, and make it that much easier for them to move on to at least 3 other members of the Big 5, leopard/elephant/rhino. as eager as USF&WS seems to be to work with the anti's and not hunters, the hand writing is on the wall.

If you or anyone else can not see it, jut wait, I am afraid it is going to get a lot clearer as time goes along.

For those of you who truly believe that the anti's are not winning, drop down to the American Big Game hunting forum and see what California is trying to do to someone that made a LEGAL hunt out of state.

Folks, I hate that things are the eway they are, but ignoring the facts is not helping any of us.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Let me see if I have this straight:

Some people took issue with a post you made on a thread (I have not read it) and now anti hunters are winning?

Exhibit A-1.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
For those of you who truly believe that the anti's are not winning, drop down to the American Big Game hunting forum and see what California is trying to do to someone that made a LEGAL hunt out of state.

Folks, I hate that things are the eway they are, but ignoring the facts is not helping any of us.

CA is not "the world" regardless of what most californians think.