You forgot one and it is the most important one!

Choices
1.
2.
3.
4.
5. who gives a shit!

You need to reword the poll (you really need three polls, the way it is worded, as you can only select one choice as now written).

First Poll:

SH victim?

Ray/PVT victim?

Second Poll:

Ray/PVT owe SH repayment?

Ray/PVT don't owe SH repayment?

Third Poll:

Ray/PVT pulled a bait and switch.

Ray/PVT did not pull a bait and switch.

Regards,

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by 323:
You forgot one and it is the most important one!

Choices
1.
2.
3.
4.
5. who gives a shit!

Well....not exactly.....it's close though.
the 5th option should be: It's really a matter for the courts and only after that should we be allowed to know what happened.

Eyedoc,

Good atempt, but You are removing any subtilty from the debate.
Nonetheless I voted "SH is a victim" , does he "need a recompense" is another story.

No doubt Ray and Pierre are great people and have proven it most of the time. It remains they have committed a FRAUD and as they are using the internet for their benefits, internet might be detrimental to their interests as well.
I am not in their place............but for God sake why didn't they reimburse SH (just like we do in poker, put on the table the money just to have the right to play on) not because they feel guilty, but just to prove they never want to cheat SH. Later I'd be up to SH to accept or reinvest this very sumn in another safari with them.
No witch hunt intended. Just puzzling me that the problem is congealed on 30000$ plus with an absent Ph and a packing up Ray.
I suggest this PLAY BE PLAYED AGAIN but whith everybody playing conscientiously his role.

How about things didn't go as planned due to poor or nonexistent communication by both sides.

I read bits and pieces and my whole general impression was that it does not matter "who was right" and "who was wrong"-- the whole thread was akin to having a fight with your spouse and letting it play out while the internet world watched and commented. No one is ever going to know but Ray, Pierre and SH.

It is entirely laughable that some people's idea of justice (no matter whose side you are on) could ever possibly be meted out by an internet forum.

Do we sometimes take forums a little bit too seriously? I know if I had a situation that I felt I had gotten an unfair shake on as badly as the two parties involved seem to think, I would certainly seek remedies through other means and not waste my time doing what was done.

It was entertaining for a few minutes though!

IV

guys-I am sorry if my poll is flawed.This is my first attempt at setting one up.

I think it will however demonstrate the general line of thought on the matter.

I have no qualms if someone can improve the design of the poll to make it better.Otherwise,please vote your gut feeling>Do not expect resolution,as I said earlier.We have no authority.

90% one way so far.

the poll is worded wrong, I believe 1 is true, so with that said 3 and 4 would be true also. lets reword the poll to say PVT/ray guilty or not guilty!!!!

OK -so the poll was flawed in it's methodology but the first 100 to participate are 90% in SH's corner.

I think that says that the majority of AR posters (Knowledgeable African hunters) feel that SH got a bad hunt.Whether by fraud ,bad luck, or incompetence,it was a bad deal.

I have seen nowhere that SH threatened litigation or asked for a refund.But from Ray's past posts,I would think he would want to "do something to make things right" as he put it.

I'm left with the impression that Ray and PVT thought that they could still produce with the relocation(why the relocation? don't know).

I also think though that after all the lion scouting comments by Ray on how a good PH knows exactly where a shootable lion is because he sends scouts blah blah blah, that Ray should have a choice, admit those statements were full of shit or refund SH some money since it seems obvious that no prescouting happened.

All the stuff that Ray has stated over the years that a good PH would do, seem's to have been forgotten by him in this situation. When it was time to talk the talk, Ray got pissed, took his toys and went home. I would have expected more.

Gmax-I feel the same way-I do not think Ray meant to screw SH,I think he just got complacent in his work,and failed to keep up with the details.When his laziness caused the hunt to go to hell,he got defensive and rude.

Now ,if he is the man of his word that he claims to be, I expect more from him than we have seen thus far.

It's not worded wrong. It has enough choices that you could vote for either party. Doesnt take a genius to vote either way.

This poll is like asking "which Democrat would you vote for?"
The only sensible answer is to bitchslap the pollster.

I did not vote one way or the other but I can tell you one thing for certain. From what I know of Ray and from talking to him and an associate of his, if I ever did meet him and happened to shake his hand, I would count my fingers when I was done. And that has nothing to do with this hunt, but the hunt does verify my opinion.

Too true Chic.

Regardless, Swamp will, no doubt, take him back at huntamerica...

btt

Up to 120 of the AR faithful have weighed in and by 10-1 they favor Sheephunter.