We just returned yesterday from 28 days hunting and 3 days photo safari in Tanzania with TGTS.

TGTS in my opinion is on top of the heap as far as African hunting goes. Their hunting areas, staff, PH's, game available, trophy quality, and organisation are second to none.

We shot greater kudu, lichtenstein's hartebeest, zebra, eland and a beast of a leopard in Muhesi/Kesigo. At Lake Natron we took white bearded wildebeest, thompson's, (2)grant's, gerenuk, lesser kudu, dik-dik and bushbuck.

Lion alluded us because of company policy and my desire to only shoot the lion of a lifetime. A fully blond monster did show up but we just couldn't make it work. Buffalo also were a problem because the ones we had a drop on either had a huge spread but a soft boss or a completely hard head but a spread of 34-38".

The east African species really shone with some making top top 20 and perhaps a couple in the top 10.

The bushbuck on Mount Galli at 9000 foot+ elevation was a completely unique experience in itself.

Joe Coogan did our photo safari at Ngorongoro crater and Tarangire. Both Joe and the parks were a real pleasure. The crater needs to be seen to be believed.

I'll try to post a few pictures later.

[ 10-22-2003, 22:17: Message edited by: MARK H. YOUNG ]

Sounds like a great hunt! I'll be taking my son on a 21-day hunt with TGTS in July of 2005. I did talk extensively with them about their policy on lions and they convinced me that their restrictions on only shooting mature lions that were not with a pride was the way to go. That said, I've heard it will significantly reduce your chances of success with them. They indicated, however, that as the years go past and the lions are protected and trophy hunted in this way, the success rates may increase. Overall, after having been unsuccessful in getting your lion, do you still agree with their policy?

Sounds like a great time.....Congrats.

Wow, what a hunt. I can't wait for the pics.

Regards,

Terry

I hunted with TGTS in Tanzania (Maswa, Ugalla concessions) in September 2000 and while magnificent and first class throughout, we did not take any big lion, leopard or buffalo. I took a 30" impala and many other very fine plainsgame but the biggest, toughest buffs ended up being pretty elusive. We found a huge old bachelor bugger hiding out in the bush, unfortunately he had a set of broken horns, so we had to pass. Some of the largest buffalo in the world have been taken in Maswa but we didn't enjoy the same luck there.

Having hunted RSA (Limpopo) last year I would say that nothing captures the old Hemingway 1920's tented East Africa Safari better than TGTS in Tanzania, but be forewarned: this experience comes at a price. TGTS and their Legendary Adventures Tour Group offers 5-Star operations at the highest end of the cost spectrum in African Hunting, but even then, after all the anti-poaching work, game quality cannot be assured. Still, it is a beautfiul region with a lot of post-hunt options.

I do, however agree with their 7-year old minimum policy on lion.

Paul.

Mark,

Congrats on a great hunt. What I wouldn't give for 28 days of hunting in Tanzania....

Lets see those pictures.

Regards,
Dave

Am I missing something???

Two groups hunted Tanzania for over 20 days each and neither came home with a buffalo. Cats I can understand. Going on a 28 day hunt and not having a shot at a 40 inch buffalo is crazy.

Ski+3

Ski,

With regards the buff, perhaps thats why its called hunting??????

Peter

Duh!

How many 7 day buff hunts have guys returning without a shot? Zero. I have never heard of someone hunting 28 days without a buffalo. That includes conversations with hundreds of guys and gals, 6 years of reading these forums on a daily basis and 2 trips to Africa.

I'm not an expert. Aren't buffalo prey animals for lion? Could there be a connection between no lion and no buffalo? You play Perry Mason.

Cheers,
Ski+3

I tend to see this over and over again. Many people like a certain company, hunt with them a time or two, and automatically claim them as one of the best. I am not making any attacks here, but am curious if the people making these comments hunted with the other good companies in Tanzania to give a realistic comparison? What makes a company one of the best? Is it having nice camps, their own airplanes, and nice landcruisers, or is it producing quality game for their clients, and providing a great all around experience?

I know hunting is hunting, but I simply read too many reports about these huge companies stating they are the best, and in actuality their success is not very good at all. TGT is a huge company,owned by an American, with lots of money to spend on those luxurious items, and advertising. They are a good company and employ some very good PHs, but they also publicize it quite well.

Meanwhile their are professional hunters out there like Boetie Bothma of Safari Royal who keeps a low profile, but has now produced 24 consecutive lions for his clients, a feat unmatched by anyone else living in this entire industry (including all the TGT PHs, in all honesty you could probably even combine any two of their success rates and still would not match Boetie's). Every client who has hunted with him has reported that he is hands down the best and most skilled professioinal hunter they have ever been hunting with. And I am willing to bet almost nobody out their has heard of Boetie or Safari Royal. Read the reports on Safari Royal and Boetie Bothma, everyone of them says "shot huge lion, huge leopard, and 3 huge buff (most over 42-44). Now in my opinion, actually producing great trophies for your clients is a lot more important than eating off fine china or riding around in brand new landcruisers.

I have also heard of this new policy about not shooting young cats. And while I agree with the policy of not shooting young cats, I disagree with what some of them are using to judge the age of a cat- PINK NOSES. I have spoken to several PHs from all over Africa and they said that judging lions age by the color of his nose is absolutely absurd.

Go through some of the hunting reports with SCI and with The Hunting Report. Read the reports from TGT and some of the other big names. You will see the same thing over and over again-
"had a great safari but did not take a lion"
"had a great safari but did not see a legal elephant"
These two phrases literally repeat themselves over and over again in the reports.

Just something to think about. If anyone wants to see some of these reports just send me an email and I will send them on to you.

Regards,
John Barth
Adventure Unlimited Inc.
safaris@trip.net
www.ausafaris.com

John,
Thanks for typing what I was trying to pontificate. I have learned that a client needs to work at having a bad TIME while in Africa. They all treat us like royalty. Producing chances at trophy animals is another story. And that doesn't mean you can't still have a wonderfull safari.

The opposite is true in North America. Here getting ripped off by an outfitter is almost standard. Finding one who is above and beyond is the exception rather than the rule.

I hope that TGTS as least offered you a highly discounted safari to come back. I know they have done this in the past. If you went through a booking agent, it is time for the booking agent to earn his commission with a "come to jesus meeting with TGTS". Just my opinion for what it is worth.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is amazing to me how much cache Tanzania has in the safari hunting world. If you look over the hunting reports in this forum, you will see a disproportianate number of reports where people have bad experiences in Tanazania. (I am one of them).

Not all outfitters are equal and not all concessions are equal (there is a great disparity in the quality of hunting blocks in the Selous). Many of the concessions are sub-leased (or sub-subleased) by outfitters from other countries who just show up for the season. Many PH's are from other countries and just show up and pay $5,000 for their Tanzania license and have little or no knowledge of the concession they are hunting.

It is my view that hunting in Tanzania requires an enormous amount of research before one can be assured of a successful hunt.

I know Mark is a very experienced hunter, but what he described is basically a very expensive plains game hunt. TGT is one of the most expensive operations in Tanzania and Mark has every right to spend his money as he sees fit. However, for others who will take a once in a lifetime safari to Tanzania and return without lion, leopard or buffalo trophies would, in my opinion, amount to a failed safari. I won't even mention elephant, as I have read numerous hunt reports and very few people ever take a trophy elephant in Tanzania.

Those short, 7 day buffalo hunts to the Selous are another matter entirely. Most outfitters can successfully carry off those type of hunts for their clients.

As with most major purchases, a great deal of research and due diligence is necessary in order to ensure one gets the best product for his money.

Regards,

Terry

[ 09-03-2003, 20:40: Message edited by: T.Carr ]

Gentlemen,

This was only a hunting report. I didn't mean to send you off on a rant.

Please just let me explain further. It seems that I didn't make myself clear or everyone would not have been thinking I got ripped off.

First in other concessions with other companies I could have shot either of 2 very acceptable lions.
One of which I will post a picture of. I would not have shot those lions anyway because I have shot lion and was only looking for a special lion.

Secondly I could have shot 3 hard headed buffalo with ease but since I have taken a few once again I was looking to better what I already had.

Thirdly I would hardly call a safari that yields a leopard of a lifetime and good representatives of some of the most sort after antelope in Africa an "Expensive plainsgame safari" as Mr. Carr has suggested.

Finally I'd like to make it clear that several other animals could have easily been taken but as in the case of the lion and buff I chose to only shoot better animals than I already had.

Guys lets not forget that this was a hunting trip. I didn't buy the animals just because it was an expensive safari.

Well stated Mark. I was just typing a reply to you when your message appeared.

Thank you for filing the hunt report. You provided information on an outfitter in Africa and any of us can contact you for details if we are looking to book a trip. It is not our job to determine if you received value because value is relative. I re-read the posts and concluded you should tell us to "bugger" off. Each of us measures "success" differently and communicates in the written world differently. Please don't think I was slamming you, I just wanted some clarification on the lack of buffalo.

Now dammit.... Lets see some pics of dead animals and smiling hunters.

Ski+3

Just received an email from my agent, who books for TGTS, among others in TZ. Attached were three photos of 3 very good lions, which I understand were taken this year. I know they have put some restrictions on their lion hunting, in order to build up their numbers of adult males. If these pic's are any indication I'd say it is working. But, as with any hunting, you have to be in the right place at the right time. Maybe more so with lions. I know I spent two 21 day safaris in search of one to better the one I already have...and I came home empty handed both times. Same for buffalo, lots of good buffalo to shoot but none approaching what I was after. All of this doesn't make the outfitter or areas bad!

John S,

I think we are talking about two different things. There is an obvious difference between a hunter who has the opportunity to take an animal, but passes because that animal isn't better than a previous trophy versus a hunter who never has the opportunity to take a trophy because of the absence of trophy animals on his outfitter's concession.

Regards,

Terry

[ 09-04-2003, 01:29: Message edited by: T.Carr ]

Gentleman,

Just a couple of more thoughts after reading your comments.

I was not giving my expert opinion on TGTS as opposed to other Tanzanian operators. First a half dozen even lengthy safaris in southern Africa does not make me or anyone an expert. I do know that TGTS is the best operation I have hunted with. Are they the best in Tanzania? I guess that would be up to someone's own opinion that had hunted extensively in Tanzania. I do know that a lot of the problems that people have had in Tanzania would not have been a problem with TGTS.

One other point I'd like to make is as I hunt more I tend to shoot less. The hunting itself
is the reward as long as the trophy quality I want is available in the hunting area. If I score it is sweet if not just knowing that I hunted legally, ethically and kept my standards up is satisfaction enough.

I can tell you this with absolute confidence. To back off from a mature buffalo at 25 yards because he lacks a couple of inches of horn or to not pull the trigger when your cross hairs rest rock steady on the shoulder of a mature lion because his hair is a little thin on top is by no means a failure. This is hunting.

[ 09-04-2003, 21:48: Message edited by: John S ]

I am far from an expert on Tanzania having never been there, however I have several friends that I consider extreme experts on the country.

As it has been explained to me there are several problems with many areas in Tanzania. One, most areas have been subdivided into much smaller "sub-areas" with a great increase in hunts conducted on them. Two, many areas have conducted too many lion hunts and have shot out the trophy males. There are several areas that only take a good male every 3 to 4 years but sell 10 to 15 lion hunts during that period.

I have been told that taking a good male lion is now the hardest trophy in Africa.

Mike

John,

Yes, we do seem to be talking about different issues. My comments were directed at the hunter who is only able to hunt Tanzania once in a lifetime. In which case, failure to return with lion, leopard and buffalo trophies would be an expensive plains game hunt.

You make very valid points. As someone said, "the best concessions are held by the best outfitters and their hunts are expensive. Only the very rich can afford to book cheap trophy hunts."

The latest brochure I have from Ramoni's company, Tanzania Big Game Safaris, is from the 2000 season. Of the eight lions pictured in that brochure, I would judge only two of them as exceptional. As MLindasy just posted, finding an exceptional lion appears to be the hardest trophy in Africa.

The pictures of the leopards in the brochure are amazing. There are 14 leopards pictured and 12 of them are the largest leopards I have ever seen.

I don't know how I have missed picking up their brochure the last two Dallas Safari Shows, but it would have been interesting to compare 3 years' worth of trophy pictures from one outfitter.

Regards,

Terry

[ 09-04-2003, 06:10: Message edited by: T.Carr ]

**

[ 09-04-2003, 06:26: Message edited by: John S ]

darned PC! sorry for the triple post.

[ 09-04-2003, 06:28: Message edited by: John S ]

[ 09-04-2003, 21:47: Message edited by: John S ]

John,

I didn't know he bought Angelides' concessions. A PH in Tanzania told me that he thought Angelides had some of the best concessions in Tanzania. I heard that George Angelides had turned the business over to his son, Michael, and that George was trying to open up a hunting operation in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

That might explain why Angelides' website doesn't work anymore. I wish Ramoni had a website. Do you know if he has a booking agent in the US?

Regards,

Terry

P.S.
I interpreted that quote as meaning "you get what you pay for" and that there is a reason cheap trophy hunts are cheap, at least that is what I meant by it.

[ 09-04-2003, 22:24: Message edited by: T.Carr ]

[ 09-04-2003, 21:47: Message edited by: John S ]

John,

I know a guy who hunted last season on Angelides' concession, Inyonga West near the Ugalla Game Reserve. He hunted with Hunters & Guides Africa. He took a respectable lion, great leopard, roan, sable, croc and other plains game. Because he was there in July and the grass was tall and green, he never had a chance at buffalo. I remember George Hoffman making a comment about early season hunting in Tanzania could present problems with the tall grass.

I talked to Beverly a few years back when I was shopping for my Tanzania hunt. She is a very knowledgeable person and she represents an outstanding list of operators. Do you know if she still represents Miombo Safaris?

I will be interested in seeing what kind of cats come of Zambia. So far, the reports seem to be pretty good. I have read one report where the hunter said the concession was hit pretty hard by poaching. Everyone else seems to have had good hunts.

I agree with you on Botswana. I'm afraid when Ian Khama becomes president in 2005, the hunting will be stopped completely.

Regards,

Terry

P.S.

For those interested, here is a link to Beverly's website.

J/B Safaris

[ 09-04-2003, 21:46: Message edited by: John S ]

Nice hijack attempt on the hunt report, guys. This discussion is interesting, but how about opening a new topic!?

Mark, if you're not convinced by now that it will be anticlimactic, many of us still want details and pictures!!!!

mrlexma,

Actually I'm getting some help on posting the pics now that I have picked out a few from the hundreds on the memory stick. I think I'll make a seperate post though since this one seems to have taken on a life of its own that is only vaguely related to my hunt report.

So sorry. I'll try to remember why so many don't care to post here any longer.

[ 09-04-2003, 21:49: Message edited by: John S ]

Mark,

Sorry things got diverted.

Regards,

Terry

TGT is as good a Safari Company as there is, it has a long and established record that should be envied....The fact that Mark saw a nice blond maned Lion speaks well for TGT...TGT has some very famous PH on the payroll, old guys from SAfarilanda, Mark Selby is still there along with Hugo Seia (maybe)...They are well backed and yes they are the most expensive Safari Company in the world I suspect, maybe they earned it, somebody has to be on top.

As to PH's from other countries in Tanzania, some of them are the very best Tanzania has to offer, some are not, some of the resident PH's are the biggest crooks on this earth and some are not. Yes, I know all of them and their reputation and learned much of it the hard way..It has nothing at all to do with where a person lives or hunts. there are no better PHs than those that were trained in Zimbabwe and come from Zimbabwe to hunt Tanzania and many of the RSA PH's do there first years in Tanzania as apprentices and learn and continue to hunt there..what counts is the individual and his integrity...

When it comes to Tanzania, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. There are no rules to go by, you had best go by word of mouth and listen to those who have been there many many times and someone you trust..A fancy brochure and lot of high dollar advertisement is just that...

Tanzania is a tough playground for booking agents and clients, the talk is wild and promises are abundant. I call it the Tanzania Tap Dance, it has ruined many a hunt and many a good man. But it has the best to offer and the best PH's in the world hunt there, some of the best hunts you will experience come out of Tanzania, just be cautious, it is dangerous out there.

I also believe that to say if one books a Lion or elephant hunt anywhere, it can and does fail with every Safari company..Sometimes things just don't come together...If anyone out there would like to give me a 100 percent guarentee on a good Lion then I will make him a rich man. Make that 70 percent. I doubt that there are 75 full maned lions in Tanzania and all of those are in the Masai, Mayowasi and perhaps the Rungra and maybe a half dozen with some black hair in the mane. Correct me if I'm wrong thats just a guess on my part. I also suspect the average success rate for LIons in Zimbabwe is around 35 percent with a few PH in the 60 to 65% catagory, same with Tanzania...

The upside is if the Govt. issues a permit then there is probably a lion to be had, but his quality may be questionable...Lions are impossible to manage simply because every time you kill an alpha male the following Alpha male will kill all the cubs in the pride...

Just a little realistic thought for your evaluation to do with as you please.