I have a gunsmith friend who is making his first trip to S.Africa and he has worked out a deal with his PH for some custom rifles in exchange for the hunt.Here is his question to me....

"My ph told me just to bring the guns like I am
bringing them back home and if we can sell them to his gun shop with
south african police approvel then I leave them if not I just take them
back. What i dont know is if I leave them and go back through the
airport is customs in africa and in the US going to say where are your
guns? or do you not need papers going back if you dont have any guns
just reciept saying I sold them? but when I land in the US are they
going to ask if I exported them or does it matter. Let me know if you
can what kind of questions or proof or paper work do you have to show
coming back from Johanasburg to USA any info would help me I have GRACY
TRAVEL booking me and they dont have a clue."

Any help is Appreciated guys!!

Friend of mine back in 2003 made a deal with a PH and sold him a rifle. They went by the South Africa police and filled out some paperwork and he left the rifle in Africa. He was carrying another rifle as well but was never questioned about the other rifle by anyone. But now the paperwork in SA has changed when you enter SA with rifles so there maybe some complications.

He will need to obtain a permanent export license authorizing the permanent exportation of each of the rifles.

The Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) Bureau of Political-Military Affairs of the U.S. State Department, in accordance with 22 U.S.C. 2778-2780 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) and the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (22 CFR Parts 120-130), controls such exports.

The process is complicated. It takes forever. But it can be done.

Best bet would be for him to use the services of an exporting firm that does this kind of thing regularly.

Read International Traffic in Arms Regulation (ITAR 22 CFR Parts 120-130) You'll be sorry you ever had this idea.

It's only a class one felony!

Under no circumstance should you attempt this without getting the requisite export permits, unless you wish to be roomates with Bernie Madoff!

When hunting crocodiles or hippos, sometimes rifles are lost in the river. Other times they are stolen from your camp.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
When hunting crocodiles or hippos, sometimes rifles are lost in the river. Other times they are stolen from your camp.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
When hunting crocodiles or hippos, sometimes rifles are lost in the river. Other times they are stolen from your camp.

So, the first time the PH has the numbers checked on his new rifle it pops up "stolen"...

In the past, I have taken rifles and left them in Africa.

Things have changed I am afraid.

Now it is a convoluted process, and one should really avoid it if at all possible.

Might as well give him the money to buy it himself.

makes life so much easier for all concerned.

Saeed - great idea and the PH gets to pick out the one he really wants.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
In the past, I have taken rifles and left them in Africa.

Things have changed I am afraid.

Now it is a convoluted process, and one should really avoid it if at all possible.

Might as well give him the money to buy it himself.

makes life so much easier for all concerned.

In SA in 2008, I wanted to give my PH a DG rifle as a tip. We went to his gunshop and he picked a 602 BRNO in 375 H&H. I paid for it on my credit card, and they started the paper work on that end. I sent him a Leuopold scope and mounts by another hunter who was going over a bit later, and the scope got there before the paper work on the rifle was done.

We discussed the options of getting a rifle to him, and as Saeed says, it was just easier to buy a rifle for him over there, and he had the bonus of getting exactly the rifle of his choice.

Thanks for all the Great Info Guys!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
When hunting crocodiles or hippos, sometimes rifles are lost in the river. Other times they are stolen from your camp.

So, the first time the PH has the numbers checked on his new rifle it pops up "stolen"...

Only if it was reported as stolen instead of "lost" while hunting crocks or hippos

Rifles fall out of overturned boats all the time, as stonecreek already pointed out...

AD

If you bring a firearm into SA on a temporary import licence and leave the country without it, you're breaking the law. You'd probably get away with it going out, but the next time you came in, the computer would pick it up on the passport number and/or address and you'd be arrested.............. and penalties are severe.

As Saeed has said, it's better to buy him something here. what suprises me is that the PH even considered the idea, because as soon as he tried to register the rifle, the CFR computer would pick it up as temporarily imported and left here illegally and then he'd be deep in the doo doos as well.

As for 'losing' the firearm. What you're considering there is tantamount to firearms smuggling across international borders and anyone who considers doing that in this post 9/11 world is soooooo ducking fumb he deserves everything he'll face when he gets caught.

Get real guys, all it'd take is a couple of examples of that kind of behaviour and they'd be trying to stop ALL hunters crossing ALL international boundaries with firearms....... It's difficult enough now, do we really want to make it any more difficult for ourselves by our own negligent, irresponsible and stupid behaviour.

What Mrlexma said.

You download a four page form. The instructions for filling out the form is ten pages. Once you get the form filled out you submit it to Dtrade along with your copy of the import license from South Africa.

That's right. Your guy in South Africa does not have an import license and probably can't get one. So you can't submit your application to export the rifles.

Under the current U.S. law you can't even sell a rifle scope or one shotgun shell to someone in Canada without going through the export process with Dtrade.

I am in the process of doing this right now. I have everything on the U.S. end finished and am waiting for the guy in South Africa to obtain an official document stating that he can import the rifle. I need his import document to submit with my application to the State Department. Who knows how long it will take for him to get this documentation.

quote:

As for 'losing' the firearm. What you're considering there is tantamount to firearms smuggling across international borders and anyone who considers doing that in this post 9/11 world is soooooo ducking fumb he deserves everything he'll face when he gets caught.

Get real guys, all it'd take is a couple of examples of that kind of behaviour and they'd be trying to stop ALL hunters crossing ALL international boundaries with firearms....... It's difficult enough now, do we really want to make it any more difficult for ourselves by our own negligent, irresponsible and stupid behaviour.

Well said!

Probably best not to do any funny business with guns.

What about the age old dream of finding a great rifle in Africa and bringing it home?

Red

Here's a question somewhat related to the topic in question. Now say I went on a South African safari, but planned on returning the next year.

Would it be possible to bring my rifle this year, then leave it behind with the outfitter for when I return? This way there's less chance for the airlines to wreck or lose!

How would I go about doing that?

I'm sure all who post on here obey all speed limits, pay all their taxes, declare all their cuban cigars, etc.......laws are made to be broken.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I'm sure all who post on here obey all speed limits, pay all their taxes, declare all their cuban cigars, etc.......laws are made to be broken.

True. It is also true that criminal courts are made for felony trials and prisons for convicts.

No problem. Just fill out an import permit and send it to the ATF. They will approve it and send it back to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
What about the age old dream of finding a great rifle in Africa and bringing it home?

Red

Dago Red,

Africa is a continent not a country. The various countries that comprise the continent each have their own firearms laws.

If you mean can you buy a firearm in South Africa and take it home with you, the short answer is, no you can't. The seller needs to get a permanent export licence from the CFR and ship it to you using a licenced firearms dealer both in country of export and country of import.

Shof,

No you can't. If you bring a firearm into RSA on a temporary firearms import permit and leave the country without it, you're breaking the law and whoever retains custody of that firearm in RSA is also doing the same.......... and penalties are very severe.

Hope that helps

Several years ago I wanted to give rifles to two PH friends in Zimbabwe. I went thru all the necessary export permissions requiring State Department approval as well as Department of Defense approval. At this time you were permitted to do this once as a private citizen without an export license. This took numerous phone calls as well as a letter froom the Zimbabwe Ambasssdor to the US for his explicit permission then the recipients in Zimbabwe had to have the requisite license in Zimbabwe to posess the rifles. I was successful in this venture but believe you me it WAS involved and time consuming. Several years later i chose to again give a PH friend a rifle but this time we ordered one custom made by Sabi in South Africa and I paid for it which was perfectly legal. It then took over 18 months to get the necessary export permits from South Africa to export the rifle to Zimbabwe. I finally on my last Safari got to see him use the rifle. I can highly reccommend just presenting the PH with the dollars and let him work out the logistics. It can be done legally but it sure is a bitch to do.

Shakari,

Thanks for the information. I certainly don't want to break any laws, I just thought it would be easier than risking two more airline flights.

Always a pleasure to be of help........ and sorry to be the bearer of bad news!

Steve,
What about going to RSA and then going to Namibia for a few days non hunting. Then returning to RSA before going back to states.
Could I legally leave my rifle in the care of lets say the Afton House ?

Ej

No, you're not. There's actually two separate issues. Firstly if you bring a firearm into RSA on a temporary import permit, you're not allowed to leave the country without that firearm.

The second issue is that private citizens are no longer permitted to take custody of any firearm that doesn't belong to them or isn't licenced to them. I believe hotels and guest houses can keep your firearm in their strongroom if you'e a guest but if you check out, you have to take it with you.

It should be noted that one is no longer permitted to leave a firearm in a gunshop for storage...... you can leave it there for service or repair but not storage. The only place you can leave a firearm for safe storage is the police station and I'm not sure I'd consider that very safe.

So by the law I must take the rifle to Namibia and then re-import to Rsa for my flight home ?
Crap !

Ej

You get issued a Multiple Import/Export Permit first time round, so you only have to do the application once. Not that bad.