Okay, this is second or third hand.



My friend PH'ed this last season in Tan for everything from elephant and buff to croc and hippo, to plainsgame and baits. He carried his mighty 577 nitro searcy and had some interesting observations. I'll call them observations, as they are, in his viewpoint, personally observed facts, but not a scientific study and are being intrepetted by me.. so it's 2nd or 3rd hand data



First and foremost

It's a select few that shoot well under pressure



Second,

the ONLY client rifle that he did not see break were the ruger mags. "cheap" doubles, CZ, winchester, remington and browning all had issues, from minor to bad. This raises interesting questions on bedding systems, doesn't it?



third

416 should be the ABSOLUTE minimum for dangerous game... 458 lott and up are better choices... 1/2" bore is a good boat gun.



forth

the stuff just won't die... the ONLY way to put african game DOWN on the first shot it to spine it, which is a difficult shot at best, see 1 above.



fifth

the 458 lott is a penetrating MONSTER. with solids, only hippos tend to stop it.



sixth

the 338-378, with barnes bullets, is the definition of devastation.



seventh...

check your scope rings... then check them again.. and then just before you get in the truck... a sci top 10 lion was MISSED due to bad rings



eigth

hippo tend to be both sneaky and grumpy... and seem to be able to hide in a tea cup or bootprint full of water.



ninth

stuff happens fast... nearly like flying.. hours of boredom followed by seconds of sheer terror



Tenth

NOTHING, but NOTHING stops dangerous game like a well placed 577 750gr barnes solid... Nothing.....



and shoulder/chest shot buffalo CAN runoff with a 750 grain woodleigh soft in them.. wont run far, but can run...



11th...

africans can track ANYTHING... i think they can track a marble rolling over a cement parking lot



12th

nothing goes to waste...



Jeffe

Some great stuff, got me smiling. I have a dream of owning a 577-100-750 (I think that is the nomenclature, maybe it is 150 for the powder weight) ever since reading one of those posts of old articles that talked about big bore doubles.

My stepfather told me that about people reacting differently under pressure, one of his brothers actually yanked the bolt handle off the bolt he yanked it so hard shooting at a deer one year.

The one that raises question with me (not over the accuracy of the statement) was the one about all but the rugers failing. Was this "modern" rifles that he was speaking of? I wonder how many traditional mausers he had experience a breakage? And most importantly, I would think that these clients has not spent enough time with their guns aforehand. Fors instance, if you had shot 200 rounds through your big bore without any stock problems, you probably would be in the clear as far as that goes.

If I lost a Lion due to scope issues I would be so far beyond pissed, that is one more argument in favor of the detachable rings setup with iron sights there for backup.

Red

hmmm, interesting observations, I'm surprised mose with #6... I can't imagige that many people actually shooting that monster, much less shooting it well... then again, with a good rest even I can shoot the uber magnums.

most of whay I've read had PHs preferring lighter chamberings, especially for plains game... again, wierd.

As stated above. (and without wishing to be controversial) Hmmmmmmm interesting observations. I guess I'd agree with #7 and the comment about shoulder shot Buffalo..........

I find No. 2 interesting but wonder if it more a function of improper rifle preparation than one of design or brand. An out of the box and bore sighted Winchester safari express and one that has been bedded, had the trigger surfaces worked, bases properly mounted, rings lapped in, feeding perfected and has been shot a few hundred times is a different rifle altogether. Reports from the field are always appreciatted.

Sounds like a sell job for the new Ruger RSM in 458 Lott to me. Any rifle can have problems at anytime, but if you take that rifle and do some extra work on it like bedding, action truing and lug lapping and then shoot it extensively before you go, you should minimze the chance for error. I do agree that the .416's are just about perfect for buff. The extra frontal diameter and adding 100 grains of bullet over the .375 DO make a difference IMO. I'll also state this as my observation after 8 safaris in 4 countries, give me an African PH over an American PH on their home turf every time. Just my humble opinion.

Nothing new here. just one mans opinnion. some I agree with some I don't....I don't think the 416 is the absolute minimum, not by a long shot, I think it and the 404 are perfect Buff guns however...I would argue the 9.3x62 or the 338 would be minumum. Why is a neck shot a hard shot to make?..I can put a buff down every time by shooting them center where the shoulder and neck come together and the spine there is very large and it has some long tines coming of of it an if you miss and hit one of those spines he will hit the dirt, not dead, but he will not get up 99% of the time. This pretty much tells me he has not used the shot and is surmising. I personally have seen less failures from Mausers than any other make of rifle, followed by the pre 64 M-70, reckon thats why I shoot them..I think the Ruger and CZ are both fine rifles, and any DGR should be tweeked by a knowledgable gunsmith, few are however.


I would like to know what experience he bases all these gems of wisdom on, his first hunt or is he a 40 year veteran of the bush, either can be very opinnionated...Some folks can learn a bunch on one hunt and others can spend a lifetime hunting dangerous game and never learn squat...

I don't find it an amazment that the 577 is effective, what else could it be other than to damn heavy to carry all day and that makes me suspecious of those who praise its use..It is also slow to get into action at the end of a 15 mile trek in the sun...10 lbs is about the max a strong man can handle under those hard conditions or so it seems to me.

Ray, here's a report from the field, presented as an observation, NOT as a huge statement of fact, take it as that, please

He walks my arse into the dirt, with him carrrying a 14.5# searcy, and me carrying my 10# mauser. So, yeah, he can carry the thing, day in and day out.


Btw, I'll answer this part.

"Why is the neck shot so hard to make"

aint about a salty hunter like RAy... it's about observation #1... Most folks can't shoot well under pressure. This is something Ray, that we agree upon.


cheers
jeffe

Ray,
Not normally one to disagree with you but once a upon a time ago I could hump a 100lb. basic load and do it it for 50 miles in 26hrs. documented! But now I'm a just a has been and couldn't do shit! Rangers Lead The Way!!!!
Sorry I've had too much Scotch if that could possibly be!

What did you shoot with the 338-378 weatherby and with what bullets?I shoot this alot in Alaska dying to go use it and my 416 rem mag in Africa.

I just watched a special on Daniel Boone, he once did 160 miles in 4 days, sans pack or other weight, but still impressive.

sorry to get off track guys

the trick to carrying a heavy rifle in my opinion (and limited experience) is to never carry a light one! I never thought my rifle was heavy (the 06 springfield I started with in fajen stock) until I switched with my stepbrother one day, his 06 is a Win70 featherweight. So now I just make sure I carry my standard heavier rifles. :-)

Red

Gentlemen,

I suppose to each is his own.

1. I would go even further here. Many good shots on the range are not so good in teh field.

2. I have hunted, and been on hunts, where people have used practicall all the rifles he mentioned, and the only one I have witnessed problems with was a Blaser R-93.

3. Rubbish. It si where you hit them, not what you hit them with.

4. Rubbish. When he says African game, and he means all game, this is certainly not true.

5. I don't agree with this one either. Isit magic that makes the 458 Lott better?

6. Again, I don't agree with him on this one. I have used a Lazzeroni 338, with Barnes bullets, and it did not kill any better than my 270 Ackley.

7. I would add check everything on your rifle, not just teh scope.

10. Rubbish again. Hit any animal in the brain with anything and he will drop dead.

11. They are good, but not that good.

12. Except hyenas and large crocs.

Saeed,

with all due respect, I ask you to read this, as we disagree, but merely in details. one's mileage may vary.

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Gentlemen,



I suppose to each is his own.



1. I would go even further here. Many good shots on the range are not so good in teh field.



2. I have hunted, and been on hunts, where people have used practicall all the rifles he mentioned, and the only one I have witnessed problems with was a Blaser R-93.

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and my friend saw other guns fails. This only means guns fail.

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3. Rubbish. It si where you hit them, not what you hit them with.

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then why do states have minimum calibers, and why do PH's not carry 243's for backup or a 308 for a stopping rifle? Because caliber DOES matter, right?

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4. Rubbish. When he says African game, and he means all game, this is certainly not true.

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Saeed, we all have seen your videos and how tough and tenacious african game is. The man stated african game, which is not all game

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5. I don't agree with this one either. Isit magic that makes the 458 Lott better?

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hmm, i dunno, the correct velocity , which we have all dicussed should be 2100-2400 for maximum penetration, and nobert has done research on. Oh, perhaps the high SD of the bullet, and then again it could be the extreme construction of the bullet. yes, it could be all these things. This is a field report, Saeed, and this is kinda like telling Bell that a 6.5 MS wouldn't kill a elephant

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6. Again, I don't agree with him on this one. I have used a Lazzeroni 338, with Barnes bullets, and it did not kill any better than my 270 Ackley.

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Then what you are stating is that there is no betterment in a 277 bullet vs a 338 bullet, regardless of weight? No, I don't think is this what you meant to state. I think you meant to state that your 270, in your EXPERT hands, will kill just as well as your 338, in your hands. Agreed. You are an expert shot, and do not meet condition 1: above.



I can't believe that anywould would believe a 270 kills as good as a 338, in most circumstances.

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7. I would add check everything on your rifle, not just teh scope.

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Fantastic idea

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10. Rubbish again. Hit any animal in the brain with anything and he will drop dead.

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Oh, certainly with the best bullet, etc... yet, with condition 1: above, we both agree than most people can't shoot well. Ah, yes, I remember reading Ross Sigfried's article on 577's than he stated, paraphrased "the 577 allowed me to take chances and shot angles that I would never take with a lesser caliber"



I know you don't mean to say that a 270 ackley kills as well as a 577, for dangerous game, I hope not

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11. They are good, but not that good.

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sorry, that was just my observation, and as a texan, prone to eggareation... meant to be hurmor.

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12. Except hyenas and large crocs.

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that i didn't know... can they be used for bait?



jeffe

jeffeosso,



I thought we are expressing opinions



Lets us do that all over again.



1. All guns will break down. Some more often than others. Some break downs are caused by the users, rather than a design flow from manufacturer - except the Blaser R-93 of course - but, we cannot classify that piece of machinery as a rifle any way



3. There are minimum calibers for certainl game animals, and they were set according to what rifle/bullet combination was availabe at the time. That does not mean animals cannot be hunted and killed by smaller calibers. Even today, I can assure you that many dangerous animals are hunted and killed by smaller calibers. It is just people don't like to talk about them, because of the preconceived idea that it should not be done.



4. I have seen several hundred African game animals being killed - including well over a 100 dangerous game. With rifles ranging from the 243 Winchester all the way up to the 460 Weatherby. And I can assure you, not a single one of them kiills any better than the other.



The one animal that always sticks in my mind is the impala, as I have seen so many of them being killed, by several calibers. And the best caliber that seems to put them down is the 25-06 Remington. It is even better than the 460 Weatherby. Every single impala I have seen shot with the 25-06 died within 20 yards of its being hit - most just drop dead in their tracks. I have seen a few shot with a 460 Weatherby, none have died as quickly.



I have personally shot impala with several rifles. And two in particular, have taken a very long time to die. Both were shot with a 375. One was hit in the chest, the bullet going completely through him, and one was hit at the neck-shoulder junction, the bulet penetrating all his body, and was found under the skin next to his tail!



I have seen impalas hit so marginaly, and they ran off a few yards and dropped dead.



Hence my not believing any statement that African animals are tough to kill.



5. Bullets do NOT penetrate the same distance in all animals. They do not penetrate the same distance in the SAME ANIMAL!



I have shot buffalo, with the same load and bullet, from the same angle and distance, and some bullets penetrated a lot further than others.



6. Yes, I don't believe a 338 bullet will kill any better than a 277 caliber bullet. One might be suited better for the larger game animals than the other, but it does NOT mean they kill any better.



I have killed eland with several calibers, from a 270 to a 375. The ones shot with the 375 did not die quicker than the ones shot with the 270!?



10. The largest animal we can hunt is the elephant, and I am prepared to shoot one from any angle with a 375.



11. I have seen some great trackers, and have seen a few who ran in circles, tracking themselves.



12. No, hyenas and crocs seem to just rot. Even the scavengers seem to dislike them.



Now all the jokes are over.



We all tend to form opinions, mostly from what we have heard or read, and some from our own experiences.



Some of these opiniuons get re-inforced by what we see ourselves, and some are disregarded.



I have read every book on African that I can find - I have several hundreds of them. Mostly old ones which are not in print right now.



Some of those writers made some statements that are so different from my own experience, as to be diametrically opposite.



Were they telling lies?



I suspect not. But they are not telling us the whole story, hence my understanding that what they have written is wrong.



One of my great favorite writers - Elmer Keith - made some statements which are so far removed from being true, I have no idea why he wrote it.



For instance, in one article I remember, he stated that the 30-06 is so useless as a deer caliber. He used an example of him shooting one and spining it. But the bullet was not good enough to break the spine, so the deer ran off.

If I listed all my observations as this man did, knowing full well it was only my opinnion, I would expect a lot of disagreement from my peers...

With experienced hunters you will definatly gets some prejudices, as this group basis all opinnions on personal experience and as a matter of fact these experiences differ...however we all respect each others opinnion.

As to your gentleman, I wasn't suggesting anything, I simply wanted to varify his authinticity to make such judgements, as you did not qualify him, but I am satisfied with your answer and will afford him all respect if he can pack that monster that far on a daily basis, I suspect most PHs can do that well enough, but few hunters can.

I know one thing for sure we are all guilty of changing our minds on most subjects from time to time, I hope that never changes.

I don't know that African trackers are always so superb. I lung shot an impala and the tracker declared it as lost. I personally located blood another 75 yards out and we found the animal. The problem was that big bore dangerous game slugs do not open up on light game, so there was not much of a hole and almost no blood.

African trackers vary enormously in skills (as do any group of people anywhere) Some are good and some are bad. Having said that, I've never come across a Tanzanian tracker that can hold a light to a good Zulu, Tswana or Bushman tracker.