quote:

Africa isn't Tanzania and you need to stop trying to enforce your simple rules on others.

Dave,

Not trying to enforce rules on anyone and while Tanzania is not Africa, South Africa & Zim are also only part of Africa and the only 2/3 that conduct these type of hunts.

The Game Laws of Tanzania which are based on ex-colonial legislation and subsequently modified over the years, still prohibit the use of "dogs or any other domesticated animal" and there has to be a reason for this; could it be related to traditional fair chase values?

I suppose therefore that the remaining African states that make up the rest of sub-Saharan Africa are wrong not to hunt cats with hounds.

P.S. How many of these so-called vermin Caracal do you estimate reside on your hunting concession to make it commercially viable, or do you extend the hunts to include Leopard among others?

so you can't buy a goat or cow to use for cat bait?? after all, they are domesticated animals and they would definitely be used for hunting. interesting fact.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
P.S. How many of these so-called vermin Caracal do you estimate reside on your hunting concession to make it commercially viable, or do you extend the hunts to include Leopard among others?

What a clown u are. You don't have a clue do you.
Well I'm not going to hold your hand and explain my areas to you as you obviously know everything.
Made me laugh though
" SUSTAINABLE VERMIN HUNTING " an expose by Fujo

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
so you can't buy a goat or cow to use for cat bait?? after all, they are domesticated animals and they would definitely be used for hunting. interesting fact.

Read the TZ Game Laws big spender!

What the hell has hunting with dogs got to do with cows and goats for bait?
Ever heard of Falconry? or Ferreting?

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
P.S. How many of these so-called vermin Caracal do you estimate reside on your hunting concession to make it commercially viable, or do you extend the hunts to include Leopard among others?

What a clown u are. You don't have a clue do you.
Well I'm not going to hold your hand and explain my areas to you as you obviously know everything.
Made me laugh though
" SUSTAINABLE VERMIN HUNTING " an expose by Fujo

Look in the mirror and you will see who the clown is

If you have vermin on your land causing you financial loss (wouldn't be vermin otherwise) are you trying to tell me you are going accept these losses until you are able to peddle hunts to cull these so-called vermin?

YOU are the friggin joker - nothing more than a money-seeking opportunist!

Sad. Crap on another persons hunt posting/hunt offer which is legal, justifiable, and posted in good faith. Sadder is continuing to fling muck based on your own limited experience/position. Saddest is not being big enough to climb down when it's time to do so.
JCHB

This is really getting to be quite silly.

Regardless of what type of hunting method you use, in this case on cats, you can find something that is going to be offensive to some. I know from personal experience that there are certain situations where the use of dogs is the only way that there is a chance of success.

While I will be the first one to say that I can totally appreciate the work and experience that are necessary to bait leopard, for example, it is pretty easy for others........... including non-hunters to find fault. How about the practice of killing game animals strictly to use for baiting cats in meat starved Africa? In many other countries that would land you in the slammer in no time and is considered wasting game meat. Non-hunters would question how the hell you can justify using the meat from the trophy eland your hunter just shot, or a zebra, or buffalo, or hippo, or the non-trophy impala shot specifically for the purpose......... to hang in trees for leopard or lion bait. Many baits just rot at times, we have all heard about it and read about it or experienced it.

My point is......... it is real easy to find fault with any method.

When it comes to cats I think we as hunters need to shut up and quit drawing attention to ourselves. If we don't it won't be long until we are all like California, where mountain lions are not allowed to be hunted and the ONLY lions legally taken are problem animals......... and they are killed by the game department staff, not licensed hunters.

quote:

How about the practice of killing game animals strictly to use for baiting cats in meat starved Africa?

Please spare us this sentimental jargon!

Not all African hunting concessions are communal land and nowhere is it written that hunted game is to be allocated to the "starving multitudes". It might be the case for Elephant or Hippo in the communal land but not as a general rule.

When a client buys and pays for an animal or more, they are HIS/HER property once killed, to basically dispose of as they please.
However, I have never seen excess meat going to waste and neither does it all get utilized as bait as not all hunters are necessarily interested in cats.

Killing an animal simply for bait may or may not be justifiable to some; fact being that whatever is on license is part of a quota allocated to be killed and as long as method of capture conforms with the hunting regulations, it matters not.

BTW any self-respecting hunter is NOT going to hang an Eland in a tree even though this practice seems quite normal in RSA.

You might like to know that a large number of the "starving" Africans will not eat Zebra, Hippo or Elephant, especially if they are Muslims; some won't even eat Eland, for crying out loud!

I would however find fault at buying a cow or a goat to be used as bait as these two domestic animals are indeed the main source of protein for human consumption and to purchase either or a donkey, would really be a kick in the crotch to the waif with an empty belly.

So yes, if you are going to hunt vermin, the RSA law allows any means at one's disposal, including dogs; but it aint fair chase, as in jack-lighting, shooting off a vehicle, at water, sniping, chasing with a vehicle, etc. all methods that have been unceremoniously condemned here on AR at one time or another but popping a treed cat is absolutely fine.

Fujo....... I am not your enemy here. I know how it works. I said it can be taken that way by those who do not and it is illegal in other places to use game meat in this fashion. You are the one NOT getting the point now. So the other countries that do not allow edible game meat to be used for baiting are also wrong because they do not see it your way?

And actually not long ago right here on AR I read about eland getting used for bait. Surprised the heck out of me as I thought most were reluctant to use eland as it was premium table fair.

Muslims........ ya, ya, spare me. Then of course there are the hunt reports opposites to this where ele hunting is justified by the tons of meat provided to starving Africans. They stream in from villages far away to get a chunk of protein. You seem to have a knack for only picking out the situations that work for your chosen position.

I am all for leopard over bait and it would be my preferred method to hunt them myself. That said you need to suck back and reload because you are starting to really come across as not using a whole lot of grey matter in this discussion.

You are now attacking me as if I do not understand. I actually do. Many others will not and just like you seem to think the use of dogs will be offensive and unsporting to the masses...... well hopefully you are starting to get the point. Although watching your posts suggests you are completely off on a tangent and so I will not bother to post on this any further as it is obviously a complete waste of my time. Rest assured I have better things to do.

Skyline:

My apologies if you took it as a personal attack - it was not intended that way.

I misunderstood certain comments you made, i.e the starved Africans, Eland for bait and the use of bait which would have been better utilized to feed the starving multitudes.

For the benefit of those that don't know, the Africans that stream in from nearby villages are usually those who live in those much talked about "Campfire" or "Communal Land" concessions, mainly Zim and possibly Zambia. This is not SOP for all African countries and I did point this out.
I also have reservations that game meat, other than offal, taken on ranches or private concessions in RSA in particular, gets distributed to the local communities as one would like to believe.
One might also have noticed how clinical most of the "skinning sheds" are with their white tiles, stainless steel trays and drainage systems for flushing the work-zone.
The butchered animal whose trophy fee has been paid for by the client continues to get revenue as it will end up in the butcher's shop or turned into biltong for resale; some people know this, the naive ones don't.

You are right about some PHs using Eland for bait which for most would be considered sacrilege - those that do are very unlikely to be East African PHs and that too was covered.

With regards to the Muslim issue you and others may have have noticed the odd tracker in the group "probing" the bullet hole of a downed animal with his knife (a convenient way of "Halal" which will more than likely be frowned upon by the Imam) so that the meat can be consumed by his mates; the same bunch however will not eat the meat of certain animals, inclusive of those I had mentioned.

A question for those clients who want or would like the meat go to the nearby protein-starved villages:

Would they be prepared to forfeit the loss of hunting time in "dressing" the animal and shouldering the costs of transportation of the carcass to the nearest community as I honestly cannot see the outfitter paying for this home delivery service?

Quote:"Some people just don't get it !

Hunters are in the middle of the biggest shit storm ever yet some of individuals still classify hunting as fun, a blast, etc."Quote:

So tell us please, why do you you hunt