I have no issue with an entrance fee to the show or meeting. I have no issue with selling booth space. I have an issue with an conservation organization draining the very resource it is there to promote. Why not have the membership of that organization pony up the cash to fund the operating expenses of the club?

Mickey,

This is not a personal attack, so please don't be pissed off with me, it's just how I (and an increasing number of outfitters) feel

The cost of a booth at SCI is pretty much the same as it is at the DSC yet the DSC don't ask for a hunt donation and still make money...... if they can do it then why can't SCI?

To say nothing of the difference in entrance costs to the two shows.

As to the costs of saving African hunting...... I'd say that the outfitters do a bloody sight more about the hard realities of protecting African hunting than SCI. If anyone wants to see where some of the SCI money is wasted they could do no better than to look at the SCI HQ. Talk about a monument to the self aggrandisment of the senior officials. If half the cost of that HQ had been spent on Africa, African hunting or in other poverty stricken countries elsewhere then SCI would still have a beautiful HQ.

You tell us that the show did $45 Million of business, but what was the value and number of donated hunts?...... for some reason that information seems to be rather difficult to uncover.... I'm not meaning to knock SCI (honestly) but I do feel that the hunt donation thing has gone far too far, and if that was dropped, the cost of African hunting would drop also and then more average guys could afford to come.

As you say, if you don't like it, you don't have to come....and I don't like it, so I don't go. Fortunately we have sufficient clients who appreciate good quality hunting & have either hunted with us before or have heard of our reputation that we don't have to sweat it too much.

Outfitters do pay SCI to help them market their product, they do so in the cost of the booth, but are then asked to pay again by donating a hunt....... and then (getting back to the origin of this thread) the purchasers have the front to criticise the outfitter as they feel the quality of the �20K hunt they paid considerably less for was not to their liking.

.......Talk about adding insult to injury!!!

I'm afraid that I won't be attending the SCI convention until they drop the donation requirement and I've gotta say that every time I go to the PHASA convention or meet up with other outfitters more and more people agree with me.

Steve
I hope I didn't come across with this as personnel to you either, it was not meant to be. But I have heard this forever it seems.

You can't even begin to compare the DSC and SCI in terms of volume or size. You cannot compare their budgets for Conservation or Political Activities either. This is not a criticism of DSC either but they are quite a bit smaller than SCI and I don't believe they are allowed to engage in Political activity under their tax status or Charter. I may be wrong and if I am I'm sure some one will point it out.

While ugly and poorly laid out, the SCI Headquarters was paid for by donations from Chapters and Members. Why should these members pay for Conservation in Africa when, according to your view, the African Outfitters shouldn't be asked to?

The auctions brought in around 3.5 million. I don't know what the value was stated to be but actual value would be less as Outfitters tend to exaggerate the value. I do know the auction booth sales and admission brought in around 5-6 million. I seriously doubt that the cost of hunts would drop without SCI's Auction. Things don't work that way. You say you don't donate, are your prices substantially lower in Tanzania or other places you hunt than your competitors?

I'm glad that you are not in need of conventions. It is always best to be busy from recomendations and repeat business, it is so much easier. I know a few Outfitters in Africa in your position. Most people have never heard of them but they are always booked up 2-3 years ahead of time.

I guess Outfitters need to add the cost of the Donation and the cost of the Booth to come up with the cost of attending the Convention. It is more than other venues but then again it pays off in a much bigger way. Donated hunts are one way for Outfitters to get people to see their operation that wouldn't normally do so. This is one way to build up the type of referral and repeat business you have. The question is, is it worth it to the Outfitter or not. That is his decision but it seems that plenty of Outfitters think so.

Don't forget that all of the exhibitors are asked to donate. It is not a requirement and plenty of Exhibitors don't. You can make a cash dontion instead of a hunt donation if you want to improve your points for a better location. I belive some sort of longevity points are now being considered to augment the monetary ones. I hope so anyway.

I agree with you on the bitching that goes on by buyers of donated hunts. This clearly needs to be addressed by supplying more information about the donations. A lot of people are impulse buyers on what they percieve as a good deal slipping away. They have no clue on what they are buying and are usually the ones who complain the most.

SCI has Conservation programs going on all Continents of the World. They are involved in Governmental Affairs in Africa, Europe and Asia. They sit on some of the Animal Welfare Committees of the UN as an accredited NGO and attend and influence the CITES Convention. Their influence is many many times greater than the size would dictate. It is because of the passionate efforts of the members and because of money that all this is possible.

I, for one, don't want to see this change. If the Outfitters no longer want to contribute to the fight than this will all be lost. So will Hunting and so will the Outfitters. Fortunately, most realize this as a possibility and continue to donate. They also reap the rewards and support of the SCI Membership

500grains

Trying to equate Thorasic Surgeons doing Heart Surgery to attend a convention (attendees/members) to outfitters selling a product (exhibitors/vendors) is the part that exhibits ignorance. They are not the same.

Plumbers attending an AGC Convention are not the same as Moen or Standard trying to sell toilets to them and Lawyers attending an ATL Convention are not the same as Private Security Services trying to sell them their services.

Is their anyone else out there besides you that doesn't understand your analogys are irrelevant and misrepresented?

Why should Vendors be able to pay their booth expenses and attend any Convention for free? Why do you think that they have this right? If there is not money to be made from them why should they be there at all? What right do Outfitters, or any Vendors, have to sell their product for free at any Convention? Do you sell your firearms for your cost with no mark up?

The Convention is SCI's 'store'. The access to it's members is what they sell. The access to the outfitters for the members is what they sell. No outfitters are forced to donate a hunt or anything else. Like most stores though, they charge a premium for premium locations. If you want one than you have to sweeten the pot for the store (donate) Do you think that those Coca Cola displays in the front of Safeway are their because the manager likes to drink Coke?

If you still don't understand, send me an email and I will try again on a more elementary level.

Hi Mickey,

I guess you do hear the same complaints repeatedly, but like this post, it's not a personal thing it's just how two people from different sides of the fence see it.

I appreciate that the DSC show is much smaller than the SCI one, but that should mean that it is easier for SCI to make a profit on the larger show.

I didn't say that African outfiters shouldn't pay for conservation efforts in Africa. We should and we do, I just pointed out that in my view the SCI HQ is a hugely expensive waste of money and that the cost of building (and maintaining) such a monument to bad taste could have been much better spent......frankly I've hunted Africa for almost 25 years and have never ever seen a single example of how SCI has conserved anything whatsoever on a basic level......they talk a lot and I guess they lobby a lot and achieve things on a governmental level but they don't seem to do a hell of a lot in the way of practical conservation. What for example has SCI actually done for the conservation efforts in Zimbabwe over recent times? Both the people and animals are being slaughtered at an ever increasing rate. The bush of a once beautiful country is rapidly being turned into a desert unable to support even the odd goat let alone the human population and once it's goe it will probably never recover it's former glory...... yet I haven't exactly seen SCI getting in there to try to improve matters. I'm not suggesting it's their job to do so, but if they claim they do then they should.

you say that the hunt donations brought in $3.5 Million last year, but why is it such a secret how namy hunts were donated and what their total retail value was? Don't forget that every time an outfitter donates a hunt, he is actually (potentially)losing two hunts. The one he donated and the one that the purchaser might have bought had the donation not been there. As you know, most donated hunts actually sell for a very small percentage of their true worth. Let's say that the true value of those donated hunts was actually $20 Million. (and I would guess its more) If you add on the cost of the other hunt that might have been sold otherwise that would mean that $40 Million has been taken out of the industry. ... how many industries can afford that type of annual loss, and if not financed by increasing the cost of other hunts I wonder how it is sustained. The total cost of an African outfitter attending the conventions is now around US$25-50K depending on donation value and that obviously has to be reflected in the retail price of the hunts.

As to my own prices, well I guess I'm not the most expensive operator out there by a long chalk, neither am I the cheapest..... but I reckon we offer a far higher level of service & quality than most of the competition. For example we only use the best areas and camps available, we offer a full safari plan to each client that includes any and all help and advice that may be required for every aspect of the safari from flight planning to taxidermy, we give each client a copy of our book which again is aimed at answering the clients questions before he knows what he needs to ask and we also keep track of all that is going on until his trophies are hanging on his walls...... hell, even if a client has had problems with trophies he's shot on a previous hunt with other outfitters who are nothing to do with us, we'll even solve those problems if we can.

We also give each client a safari contract, partly based on Terry Carr's posts (thanks Terry ) and that also covers all eventualities..... these things all add to the final cost.....so as I said, we're not the cheapest..... but I honestly believe we give some of the best value for money of anyone in the industry.....at the end of the day, cheap is cheap and quality always comes at a price. Proof of quality can be found in how often a client hunts with the same outfitter, and some of our clients have been kind enought to hunt with us for 15+ safaris and are still re-booking.

Outfitters really need to attend at least 3 conventions before they begin to make money as the buyers will usually wait that long before making a commitment to a company they don't know so this really means that the outfitter needs to be prepared to make a commitment of something like $100,000 before he starts to make any real money out of attending...again another reason that Africa is becoming increasingly expensive. As you say, it's up to the outfitter to decide if it's worth his while to go or not, but as I said previously there are an increasing amount of outfitters who are deciding not. Also as you say, the hunt donation is not compulsory..... but let's face it, if you don't make a hunt donation, then your booth is going to be right at the back of the show where you won't sell anything.

As a matter of interest, would you know how much profit SCI made last year and what was done with it? I used to really like SCI, but sadly I now feel that it is losing sight of it's roots and is changing from a worldwide hunters club & organisation with real power and willingness to use hunting as a way to improve things to nothing more than a money making machine

I don't know the valuation of the hunts donated. I think though that the figure of 70-75% of listed value has been given before.

SCI didn't make a profit last year because of numerous bad business decisions and employment hires by the old Executive Director. It appears to be woking on a positive cash flow now that the severance packages and bad marketing decisions are mostly in the rear.

SCI's programs in Africa and most of the rest of the world are on the governmental level as you suggested. I am not familar with all of there programs but you can get very good information from the Washington DC office.

Don't forget that 10 years ago there was no importation of sport hunted Ivory into the US or most of Europe. It was SCI, and John Jackson in particular, that made it happen.

As for Zim, I'm afraid that nobody can do much there. What would you have SCI do? If the governments of the world can't help a group of 35,000 hunters can't either.

The question on your prices was in answer to your statement that prices would come down if there were no donations. Prices are set by what people will pay and the demand for the product. If the demand and the price is profitable than you win, if it is not you lose. Prices and costs have little in common, it is demand and willing buyers that set the price.

I agree with you on the attendance at numerous conventions. I personally think that Outfitters are money ahead in attending a Few Chapter events on a regualr basis rather than getting lost at the Convention. Unfortunately a lot of the African 'donations' to Chapters are worse than crap. They donate nothing and expect much. Many clients think that Outfitters view them as pigeons waiting to be clipped. I am glad that you appear to not fit that mold and instead represent the other end of the spectrum.

Sadly, I agree with your assesment of the current SCI leadership. The direction is more towards the American hunter in America and SCI is losing it's focus as an International organization. Too many of the current leaders are more concerned with what's good for them and not what's good for SCI. But SCI has been around a long time and weathered worse. It will be better in the long run and stronger for the lessons being learned.

Spot on and, I might add, quite eloquent!

Thanks.

For the conventions or shows, why not just charge for booth space based on location and size of the booth? If that is not enough money, then raise the dues to the members and the entry price to come to the conventions.

In my professional organzation ( Society of Petroleum Engineers) dues are about $110 per year, cost to attend annual meetings or conventions range from $125 to $500 per person, booth for exhibitors range from $1000 to $20,000 depending on size and location. We have 50,000 members and hold several meetings a year.

Why would that not work for an org like DU, SCI or RMEF?

dogcat

Of course it would. A booth at SCI cost around $2500. Space is allocated on a points system that allows the smaller exhibitors to build up credit over the years for a better location by donating their time and labour instead of hard dollars. The different pricing of prime space would freeze out the smaller guys as a $20,000 cash price per year would be prohibitive. With the points system even a Mom and Pop Outfit can end up in a prime spot in a few years with a lot less dollars invested.

There is some validity to both methods and as Steve has pointed out a donated Safari may be lost profit. It also may not be. That is why a cash donation is also accepted. The aim is to make it easy for both parties to get what they want with as little pain as possible. I said as little pain not no pain.

The cost of going is $250/for the 4 days. This is quite cheap in relation to other Conventions I attend, some of which are $250/day. As long as people feel that they are getting value for their dollars than they will continue to go. If that stops they will stop going. Pretty simple.

Buying hunts on auction is a risky business.The price might be attractive, but there is usually a lot of fine prints attached at the bottom of the contract. Secondly, if you do not know this particular donor/outfitter well, you are buying a cat in the bag ! There is no time to check on a particular outfitter credentials - you act quickly without an opportunity of checking on all things when you raise your hand !

Les Kosek
Australia < !--color-->

Nitrox,
Your post of 10/24 (#47494); Thanks for calling 'Whoa' on this one. After your note, things started migrating back to dead center, the lights were turned on and it became a little easier to pick the oat seed out of the horse shit.

Where did the 2 original complainers go off to, you reckon?
Dungbeetle

I feel I must throw in from a different angle here (we have the PH/outfitters side and what sounds like must be SCI administrations side), so how about a word from the membership. Incidently, Mr. Micky, I surmise you were referring to Bogner as the problem? You have my vote. I, as a member, feel that $100 a day--or did it go to $110 a day this year--is quite rediculous. Why in gods name would I pay to go to a place to spend? I don't pay to go into any other store to buy. Maybeso to see the taxidermy? Granted, it's good, but 1 day 1 time covers it. I live close, in fact was in Reno during the convention, but I'll be damned if I'll spend that kind of money to go into a place where all that transpires is selling. Those that do the selling need to foot the bill, entirely. They are the ones making the money. I know that is exactly the opposite of what the PH/outfitters want, but that's how I and many other people feel. I see nothing in there worth $100 more than 1 time. That for me is one time in 12 years, and the years part will keep rising; the 1 will stay the same. Make it $25, I might consider. $100, rediculous. Then throw in $2.50 or so for a beer in there. Out of control!

Arts

I stumbled on this again while looking for something else. I do not work for SCI nor am I involved on the Board in any position. I am a Life Member of SCI, a Life Member of the IPHA and an interested observer. I do know and see both sides. My statements and opinions should not be construed as an opinion or position of the management of SCI. This is a discussion that needs to be had every so often to clear the air a bit.

I think our mutual disdain for the current President and his self serving policies are shared by most people who actually pay attention.

700 nitro is currently hunting ellie with safari bots bound, so when he gets back he should be able to clean up any damage to the reputation of SBB with a post describing his hunting experience.