DB Bill,

Do you condone fraud?

Do you think folks should be prohibited from posting about experiences that are not 100% positive?

Undoubtedly anyone engaged in unethical conduct would want it kept private rather than discussed publicly.

WE HAVE VOTED.... NOW BACK TO TELLING STORIES,SELLING HUNTS AND SELLING DOUBLE RIFLES.




HAVE YOU SEEN THE SINGLE MALT?

quote:

Originally posted by urdubob:
WE HAVE VOTED.... NOW BACK TO TELLING STORIES,SELLING HUNTS AND SELLING DOUBLE RIFLES.



HAVE YOU SEEN THE SINGLE MALT?

Urdubob

All we can do is tell stories, and they can't be true.

We can't sell hunts because if they go bad we must accept it and not speak up. Wouldn't want to save anyone else any money or trouble. Don't tell the sheep as then they are too hard to fleece..

We can't sell rifles anymore either because if it is a bum rifle we can't talk about that either.

Why did you pick that particular picture?

Mickey that was the point.... Muppets are not real..they are fake....nothing but stuffing.. made to entertain.

I thought you were sending a subliminal message.

Those Muppets looked familiar.

Oh, the pic is of Ray & JudgeG, Saeed owns the theatre and gave his two good friends the box seats...they are laughing for obvious reasons.

500grains.....I have no problem with SheepHunter posting on the results of his hunt and I didn't have any problem with his questions before the hunt and if I were him I would have taken the refund and not gone but that's water under the bridge.

The only parts of this whole affair that I can't understand are the dozens and dozens of posts made that say the same thing over and over and over ..... a lot of heat and very little light .... have you counted the number of posts you've made?

The one "substantial" post you made, for me, was the results of your phone call with the mysterious "Licky".....but I wonder, with all the apparent intirgue with respect to who has what concession and who sub-leases to who and is it legal, what incentive does he have to tell you the whole truth about what happened?

My own personal take on the whole affair, and it could be wrong, is that more of an effort should have been made to talk to SheepHunter about any proposed change in area. If he didn't agree then an immediate refund should have been offered. The question of if SheepHunter was notifed and didn't respond will never be determined for sure. When SheepHunter went public with the change, after talking to Ray, it was unfortunate that Ray got defensive but I think he did the right thing by offering a refund at that time. I think the rest of the rhetoric was simply Ray, in the absensce of any other information, simply defending Pierre and the decisions he made in Africa....communicatons made have been a problem but he did offer a refund.

After the hunt, which was apparentely was a disaster, some type of compensation would be a nice PR gesture...not a 100% refund but something. Unfortunately with all the piling on and name calling it's doubtful if that will ever happen.

One final thought on my part.....in all the postings I don't think I ever saw anything substantial from SheepHunter with what Pierre told him when he got to Africa and how they parted after the hunt....or did I miss it in the blizzard of repetitive posts.

DB Bill

Ray has claimed that Pierre is hunting and won't be done until sometime in December. I think that you will see that after he has a suitable time to post his side that the rest of the story will come out.

Believe me when I tell you that you haven't heard it all yet.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
DB Bill,

Do you condone fraud?

Do you think folks should be prohibited from posting about experiences that are not 100% positive?

Undoubtedly anyone engaged in unethical conduct would want it kept private rather than discussed publicly.

Can you show us what fraud was committed?

And I don't mean the "he said she said" bit, but real, documented fraud?

Can you show us what fraud was committed?

And I don't mean the "he said she said" bit, but real, documented fraud?[/QUOTE]

Saeed,
That is not playing fair,if we need proof 99% of this thread is worthless.

Sean

It is fraudulent misrepresentation to induce someone to accept a business deal, or a change in a business deal, on the basis of one or more outright lies.

Such as the following:

"We think it would be a good idea to cancel Kigosi, where you were previously booked, and move you to Masailand, because the hunting in Kigosi is terrible right now, but the hunting in Masailand is much better."

Where:

1. Kigosi was not booked for the applicable period of time.
2. The intention on the booking party's part at all relevant times was to book Masailand.
3. The reason given for the change in location was a pretext, i.e., a lie.
4. The hunter relied on the misrepresentation to his detriment.

Do we have all the facts in this case? Perhaps not.

But we also don't have any answers from one side to some pretty simple questions.

DB Bill

As much as I find 500 Grains to be a pain in the neck at different times (and I am sure he finds me the same ) he is not resonsible for the thread running over a 1000 postings. Actually, it would probably be 2000 postings if it was on one of the other forums on this site.

Given Saeed's very outspoken positions on the Poltical Forum and his very mild defense of Atkinson/PvT I think 500 Grains is probably on the right track.

Saeed's defense postings of Atkinson/PvT would indicate that he is far from sure.

Many people seem to forget that Atkinson made use of free advertising on the forum and that free advertising is not really free...as the long thread has shown.

Do you think 500 Grains should have not posted?

You have asked if 500 Grains should get a life. Perhaps you need to ask yourself the same question since you have started a thread about the thread.

Your opening line in your post....Does SH really stand for SheepHunter or for Shit-Happens? would indicate the thread did not unfold the way you would like.....welcome to internet forums!!!!

Mike

378....500grains can certainly post all he wants but after awhile the constant repetition of the same guesses/suppositions/theories/accusations/etc does get a bit repetitous...son't you think?

Also, I wouldn't read too much in to what Saeed posts or doesn't post on this forum as I think he is too much of a gentleman (and good host) to get involved in mud-slinging. The Political Forun is, of course, another matter as even the best of friends argue about insignificant things like politics.

Saeed,

I think you questioned my use of the word 'fraud' in a post above. To avoid confusion, I have copied the defintion of fraud from http://www.dictionary.com:

quote:

fraud (frôd) n.

A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

A piece of trickery; a trick.

It seemed to me that was the correct word to use. But please let me know if you still do not agree.

quote:

378....500grains can certainly post all he wants but after awhile the constant repetition of the same guesses/suppositions/theories/accusations/etc does get a bit repetitous...son't you think?

DB Bill,

I think most of 500 Grain's postings will have been responses.

I beg to differ with you on Saeed's postings on the thread. He does not need to sling mud to make a strong defence of Atkinson/PvT. In a nutshell he won't come out with a Yes or No to the simple question of should Atkinson/PvT be checked out before booking a dafari with them. Saeed saying he has had a couple of good hunts with them is a soft approach.

If Saeed comes out with a simple No that Atkinson/PvT do not need to be checked out before booking a hunt then that would put it all to rest.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 475/480:
Can you show us what fraud was committed?

And I don't mean the "he said she said" bit, but real, documented fraud?

Saeed,
That is not playing fair,if we need proof 99% of this thread is worthless.

Sean[/QUOTE]

You are dead right my friend. 99% of all the silly accusations here are absolutely worthelss. Especially to us who have dealt with Ray and Pierre, and know them well enough.

Of course, those who have appointed themselves judge, jury and executioners, don't count.

Nor those who make a shopping list, and then want to pretend to be "hunters".

Saeed,

Surely you agree that there is a difference between good and bad concessions, and good and bad times of year to hunt a particular concession.

And that a booking agent is supposed to help the client find the good concessions at the right time of year.

500grains.....correct me if this is wrong but as I understand it, SheepHunter didn't use Ray as a "booking agent" but dealt directly with Pierre and so Ray's expertise wasn't consulted about which concession to hunt in or what time of the year it might be "best".

The "deal" in all of it's ramifications had been struck between Pierre and SheepHunter. Given this, I simply don't understand the intense vilification of Ray on this point.

I will stipulate that he "might" have handled SheepHunter's posting after he had talked to him a little better but who among us might not take strong offense when our honesty is questioned......it takes so little to tarnish a reputation and once stained almost impossible to make whoe again.

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
500grains.....correct me if this is wrong but as I understand it, SheepHunter didn't use Ray as a "booking agent" but dealt directly with Pierre and so Ray's expertise wasn't consulted about which concession to hunt in or what time of the year it might be "best".

I really think you ought to read Ray's posts and emails again, as Ray exerted all of his effort to convince Sheephunter that Kigosi was a crap area and that the only chance for success was to be found in "changing" the hunt to Masailand. SH relied on Ray's representations in accepting the change.

Yet after the fact we learn Kigosi produced excellent lion, elephant and hard bossed buffalo, but Masailand/Ishikubur was nearly devoid of game. So the situation on the ground was EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of how Ray represented it.

If you re-read the first few pages of the SH thread, you will see that is the case.

(I am omitting any discussion of the fact that there was no "change" at all since PVT did not book Kigosi as he was required to do by his agreement with SH, even though it was represented to SH as a "change" necessitated by poor hunting in Kigosi.)

But after all of that....Ray offered a full and complete refund as I recall.....and I can't fault Ray for standing by what his PH told him.

But what Ray said was FALSE. And it was the false statements which convinced SH to accept the "change" and go on the hunt. I would like to think that Ray is only incompetent rather than dishonest, but Ray's own posts and emails contradict each other. Since both cannot be true, one must be false which means...

quote:

Can you show us what fraud was committed?

And I don't mean the "he said she said" bit, but real, documented fraud?

Be careful what you ask for, I can show anybody that wants to see it PROOF of Rays fraudulent advertising.

My number is posted on the other thread so call me if you would like, I am tired of posting. I doubt I will receive any calls but again, I have proof of Rays lies and bullshit (FRAUD) that can be verified through various state agencies as it pertains to hunts he has tried to sell on this very website. That son of a bitch has told a ton of lies about me, I can GUARANTEE that he cannot substantiate any one of them.

Showing you guys the documented proof is the easy part, getting you to believe it would probably be impossible.

I wont hold my breath,

DTH

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

It sucks that SH had a shitty hunt but HE CHOSE TO SPEND HIS MONEY.... no one forced him. He got bad advice from someone HE CHOSE.

We all know (or I hope we all know) the only guarantees in life are death, taxes and that Nosler Ballistic Tips suck.

This and that whole other thread sound eerily similar to Hillary Clintons "It takes a village" speech.........

I guess it takes a village to book a succesful hunt in Africa???

If I could get every person who viewed that worthless thread to take 50 cents each time they viewed it and toss it my way for mule deer research.....something positive may come out of it after all!

$30000 dollars would fund almost 2 years!


Idaho "Shamelessly trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip" Vandal

quote:

If I could get every person who viewed that worthless thread to take 50 cents each time they viewed it and toss it my way for mule deer research.....something positive may come out of it after all!

Where do I send my money? That would be money well spent!

DTH

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Yet after the fact we learn Kigosi produced excellent lion, elephant and hard bossed buffalo, but Masailand/Ishikubur was nearly devoid of game. So the situation on the ground was EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of how Ray represented it.

500GR.
could you point me in the right direction where these reports on excellent Kigosi hunts are found please?

And also a link to the other negative reports on Irkishibor before or right after SH hunt?

thanks

BM,

Ray gave negative reports on Kigosi [edited to delete Ishikbuor and change to Kigosi - typo] right before the SH hunt. These are found in the main SH thread that he posted after the hunt, and in SH's question thread posted just before the hunt (linked through the main SH thread). Licky provided an oral description of the successful lion and ele hunts in Kigosi, and I summarized that post in the main SH thread. There is a lot in those 2 threads to be waded through, but you will find both if you look.

quote:

Originally posted by urdubob:
Mickey that was the point.... Muppets are not real..they are fake....nothing but stuffing.. made to entertain.

That sounds like the girl I was trying to meet in the bar last night... From now on they're not barflys! They're MUPPETS!

500g,

i tried to start re-reading the posts but just too many to wade through.

Am i correct to assume from your last post that the positive reports on kigosi were verbal ones made by the concession holder to you/someone else on this forum? If so, I would read these reports with a "pinch of salt" don't you think?

And secondly, are you saying Ray posted a negative report on Irkishibor after SH stated he had been re-scheduled to hunt there?

I am trying to find out whether or not there exists several negative reports on Irkishibor just before or just after SH's hunt. and if these reports are public!

BM

Ray provided negative info about Kigosi. Other forumites provided negative info about Ishikubur. Ray insisted he was right. So SH went on the hunt and found out Ray was not right.

Go get `um Dan. The lights are on and the roaches are fleeing (or have fled).
I am not taking sides, but is is is.
Who was it that said this is an uncensored, public forum? 500 has done nothing wrong except post, post, post, and that is his perogative...

btt

Fraud? Impossible for a cowboy like Ray!
Just not the cowboy way! It would have to be just a good old fashioned hornswoggling.

The new cowboy way, I reckon, the kind of hornswoggle they do on Broke Back Mountain.

Is that where Ray is hiding out these days?

Shameful! Judge too? Pierre too?

I'll stay tuned to see if any of these "good buddies" come clean.

quote:

Fraud? Impossible for a cowboy like Ray!
Just not the cowboy way! It would have to be just a good old fashioned hornswoggling.

The new cowboy way, I reckon, the kind of hornswoggle they do on Broke Back Mountain.

Is that where Ray is hiding out these days?

Shameful! Judge too? Pierre too?

I'll stay tuned to see if any of these "good buddies" come clean.

Thats Funny! Its also funny that all of people that were looking for documented proof of Rays fraud have not called. Could it be that they dont want to see and hear the proof that Ray Atkinson is a fraudulent SOB? Good thing I wasn't holding my breath.

DTH

Db Bill,

Better watch the use of those ellipses...You could be mistaken for Ray. Yeah, thats it...Db Bill is Ray Atkinson! God, this place kills me. Don't any of ya'll ever work?

Here is my question. What happened between Ray and .500 grains to set off this much rancor? 500 grains seems to have made it his lifes'work..at least lately...in smearing the guy.

Oh my god...Why I'm using ellipses also. Aaaagh...I..I must be Ray too...

Randy Weaver
Houston, Tx

I have had kind of the same feeling....that thread made me wonder less about Atkinson, Pierre (or Sheephunter for that matter) and more about what in the heck did Ray do TO THE PEOPLE POSTING SO NEGATIVELY rather than what may have transpired with the hunt itself......funny how the truth always comes out in the end...

IV