I see you missed the brain on 2 or 3 occassions,what was the cause of that? Bet you would have did better with a scoped 458WinMag bolt rifle with a mauser type action!

Shootaway,
We've noticed you've missed your brain on just about every occasion. You're living proof... you can't fix stupid.

JPK ;;;;;;;;WOW ,,,,To me that is what this Forum is so great for.....That was better than Capstick ... { He didn,t have enough pictures. } And with a 458 Win Mag no less......Now you know this question will or perhaps has been asked.....How did your rifle function ... From the pile of dead elephants it would appear perfactly......With the cost of 470 Nitro ammo..$ 299.99 For Fedral w/ Trophy Bonded bullets before shipping in the most recent Cabela,s catalog.....The 458 win mag or Lott is very apealing....Thank you for all the work you did posting all this .....It gives a guy something to dream about...

Brainbo,

Thanks. You said all I would have liked to say.

Can you even imagine finding the charging elephant's head in even a low mag scope?

Never mind the fact that every approach was pushed until the elephant turned to look at us, never allowing time to line up a shot?

Or that at, say, 15yds, it ain't my shooting thats in question, but my estimation of where the brain lies three feet behind the point of impact of the bullet? Especially since I managed to kill a very nice trophy size 4"+ klipspringer, which is the size of a midlin' size dog at 75yds with that 'ol handicap open sighted anacronism.

Or the fact that not one PH I have ever hunted with, met, or even heard of, uses a scoped rifle for DG hunting?

Or that every PH I have ever hunted with or met either has a double rifle or lusts for one?

Or...?

BTW, my rifle IS a 458wm!

JPK

Gumboot,

My rifle has functioned perfectly, without any issues of any kind for 11 elephants, four cape buffalo, one zebra, one klipspringer and one baboon mercy killing, plus about 800 rounds.

But my rifle is of unussual quality. And I bought my rifle expecting to rechamber it to 450NE 3 1/4", which has prooved unessecary.

Most any 458wm double rifle can be rechambered to 450NE. The cost runs from about $700 if you are lucky and the rifle doesn't need reregulating or reblueing, to about $2000 if you end up having to do the extra work.

IMO, if you find a very nice rifle, and it is a 458wm, buy it at a price that will enable you to rechamber it if it gives even a hint of trouble. Shoot the heck out of it and see how it goes. Do the rechambering if nessecary but don't if it isn't.

The owner of any double rifle should learn how to reload or find a mentor who will help. No double rifle will reach its potential with factory ammunition. In many cases the performance available from reloading will be restricted to substantial accuracy improvements since the load needs to be adjusted to be capable of making two barrels shoot to the sights In some, fewer, cases velocity will improve too.

My own loads far exceed factory fodder and do it well under maximum pressures. Also, bullet selection is a huge benefit to reloading. For example, going from my 500gr Woodleigh solid load at 2135fps, which is a fine performer and better than most if not all factory 458wm fodder, to North Fork 450gr flat point solids raises the performance bar more than one or two notches.

If you are going to have to reload anyway, to get the most out of your rifle, the cost of 470 ammo plummets.

Hope this helps,

JPK

JPK,I was thinking of a low power scope,say a 2X.You don't have to worry about taking a broadside shot at something trying to get away behind the trees,your type of hunting is where the animal is standing still or comeing straight at you.Anyways,you look like you really enjoyed this hunt.

So far, of the eleven elephants that I have shot, not one was standing still. They could have been if I was interested in shooting at longer range, but I am not. As 500 Grains so aptly put it in a post on dangerous game on the African Hunting forum, dangerous game isn't (that) dangerous at 40yds.

Even the charging elephant is not coming straight at me. As can been seen in the photos, she is taking the path of least resistance literally, coming down an elephant path on the right side of the "clearing." She was focused on a fellow to my right, the right of the photo, coming at suprising speed. There was substantial relative motion. The camers was on a five shot burst setting - the distance she covers between frames gives a hint at her speed.

Even just head bobbing or swinging creates great relative motion of the point of aim and point of impact at 10 or 15yds

The other rifle pictured in the photos I posted on my hunt is a 375H&H and it has two scopes, a 1.5x5 Leupold and a 1.1x4 Swarovski. Even these minimal scopes "subtend" too much target for close use on elephants by cutting perspective and visibility. I have found that to make a good frontal brain shot requires seeing the whole of the elephant's head, from ear to ear, and from mouth to top to read the elevation andd attitude of the head.

The poster Andy tried to use a 2x scope on elephant and it didn't work for him at close range for the same reasons I've given - too limited a view of the target.

Again, find me a PH who is carrying a scoped rifle for use on dangerous game - there isn't one, for the smae reasons I wouldn't use one. Some moron will probably add that their rifles are for very close use to stop an animal and not so the hunter's rifle. The photos show that that answer is a load of bull. Though it would be less bull, maybe, if you're shooting at any distance, but not if you push the approach until the elephant turns to you.

JPK

Shootaway-

Did you use a scope on your rifle when you shot your tiger? Seems to me that the size of the animal would make a scoped shot pretty difficult.

Would love to see some pictures (you did promise them before) and get more detail - where did you hunt it? What rifle did you use? How far was the shot? Details!

Tiger pics are comeing soon.I shot him from the top of an elephant, standing on one leg, while he leaped at me!

JPK........ Thank you for the reply.. ,I agree the brass and bullets cost of the 470 is much less than the factory ammo..... This past spring I was talking to a guy about opening up a 458 win mag . Austrian built double to the Lott chamber ..To get the affordable brass and bullets of the standard belted case with the lower pressure when loaded to win mag ish velocities.....He pretty well squashed the idea ,, but I still think it viable....His admonishon ,sp, was to convert to 450 nitro.....I,ve got 3, 458,s at the moment .. and I shoot them all....I just think it is so cool that you shot them all with [short and stubby] ......and that you didn,t have to use { heavy for caliber bullets } ....................................I think most people who are too addicted to scopes for large game don,t have a rifle that fits them well enough to shoot accurately with iron sights......Or where they hunt tends to be much darker than African big game condition .......Again thanks for the reply ....

Both of you can call me an idiot but when both PH and hunter have to shoot at a small elephant to take it down,that says something.I find nothing wrong with hunting with a double but only if you have learned how to shoot.

Shootaway

So we don't clog up JPK's thread, why don't you start a thread on the tiger hunt on this forum? Sounds like a hell of a hunt and a story that just about everyone would be interested in. You can add the pics later.

Heck, I just might start the thread for you! I really would like to get the story!

Jim Manion, it OK with me to keep Shootaway's inability to post photos he "promised" here on this thread. I think it adds to his "credibility.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Tiger pics are comeing soon.I shot him from the top of an elephant standing on one leg while he leaped at me!

But hey, since I obviously can't shoot with a particularly fine double rifle then I must be able to shoot the tits off a knatt with a scoped, run of the mill bolt rifle, eh?

JPK

It will make it easier,yes.

I wouldn't say inability because with the snap of my finger I could be off tommorow two months in the masailand for a full bag hunt or India on a tiger hunt even if it would land me in jail.But,instead I might be off in 2008 to shoot a buffalo and if I do I'll post the pics.

Well, you're still going to post the tiger pics from your prior hunt, right?

And just so I am not confused, when you shot the leaping tiger were you on one leg or was the elephant on one leg? Couldn't be sure from your post.

will post pics soon and I shot it standing on one leg.Will also dedidicate picture to Jim Manion and Splinterhands(I believe it was he who asked me before).

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
JPK........ Thank you for the reply.. ,I agree the brass and bullets cost of the 470 is much less than the factory ammo..... This past spring I was talking to a guy about opening up a 458 win mag . Austrian built double to the Lott chamber ..To get the affordable brass and bullets of the standard belted case with the lower pressure when loaded to win mag ish velocities.....He pretty well squashed the idea ,, but I still think it viable....His admonishon ,sp, was to convert to 450 nitro.....I,ve got 3, 458,s at the moment .. and I shoot them all....I just think it is so cool that you shot them all with [short and stubby] ......and that you didn,t have to use { heavy for caliber bullets } ....................................I think most people who are too addicted to scopes for large game don,t have a rifle that fits them well enough to shoot accurately with iron sights......Or where they hunt tends to be much darker than African big game condition .......Again thanks for the reply ....

Gumboot,

I wouldn't go to the trouble or risk (of needing to reregulate and maybe then needing to reblue) rechambering a double to 458Lott from 458wm. The 458wm will do all that ever needs to be done with proper loads. But if the rifle can't function 100% as a 458wm then it is time to rechamber and to 450NE.

Most double rifles are very limited in what they will shoot to POA. For the most part, they do not shoot light loads well. But there is a sweet spot that can be reached using forum member 450 NE No2's "75% Rule". This rule basically calles for loading a bullet of about 75% of the bullet wieght the rifle was regultaed for over the same charge under the heavier bullet. Might need to tweek but the load should be close to shooting with rreasonable regulation and to the sights. Works in my rifle. Recoil is still stout.

For a 458wm (500gr standard weight bullet) this would mean loading a 350gr bullet. Same for a 450NE (480gr standard weight bullet). Like I said, the rule works for my rifle, and apparently most others too.

Good luck!

JPK

Excellent JPK and thank you for the dialog as well as the outstanding pictures.

Shootaway

If you have shot a tiger in India I will kiss your pimply little ass. Remember you posted your road kill yearling caribou in the canadian forum. Don't let your big mouth over load your humming bird ass. Thought you learned to play nice after everyone kicked your ass on the Trophy room forum. F#$%ing

Great report, JPK!
The pics with the elephant-charge is quite intense! Nice footage..

Here is another pretty cool picture from John Kirlin's mammoth safari. It is of PH Richard Tabor standing down an obstreperous elephant bull. I have captioned it 'You flap your ears at me, and I'll flap mine right back.'

[URL= ][IMG]

Great Thread Guys !!!!
Awsome hunt!!!

as a humble South African ...... i ask ???

was it just me or did that Shootaway bloke just have NO F@$%!ng Clue ..... a scoped DG rifle ...?????

Hey BaldMummy,there lucky they did not end up like those lady tourists that got killed recently when the ele decided to play for keeps.You got to put it down with one shot no excuses.The only hunters who should do without a scope are the honour students.The shooting ballerinas!

Shootaway

You REALLY need to post those tiger pics. Maybe it's just me, but I sense that your credibility is suffering. Post those pics with a detailed report to show 'em how it's done.

By the way, on the elephant picture a couple posts above, where would you advise to aim? Looking forward to your expertise here.

On the forhead,between the eyes and a couple of inches high.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
On the forhead,between the eyes and a couple of inches high.

...oh dear...

I was wondering what DG are in Montreal anyways ?

Here in Africa ..... we tend to try stay alive .... and improve our chances by not overcomplicating things ...!

BaldMummy,"Die Young" Your a clown in the circus!

quote:

...oh dear...

Certainly better said than what I was thinking....

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
On the forhead,between the eyes and a couple of inches high.

How I'd love to witness that from a safe distance. Actually, how I'd love to film it from a safe distance. Could make a lot of money with footage like that - really great action sequence!

200yds between the eyes offhand on one foot.No problem.

I agree with Shootaway...


but only if I was using

With regards the cow charge sequence:
Considering what was written in another thread about distinguishing between a mock and a real charge, we see on the 2nd frame that the PH fires a warning shot which was quickly followed by an "attempted" killing shot by JPK and so forth. My question to you JPK is the following:

When Richard shot, did you think he was shooting to warn or shooting to kill and therefore you shot to kill?

Bwanamitch,

I knew Richard was shooting to warn. He may have told me, I don't recall, but the shot was at about 12 yards which is outside the self defense zone in Zim and outside of Rich's or my "Oh, shit" zone since we could clearly see her and there was room for her to change her mind. But she was moving fast.

After the warning shot, I knew that I was next up since I still had two in the rifle while Rich had only one, which might best be held in reserve. I asked Rich to "Tell me when!" and when she rounded and cleared the two trees and was still moving, head down and full speed, he told me "SHOOT HER, JOHN!" While the time interval between Rich's shot and mine may have only been a second or two, there was no feeling of rushing, rather the opposite, where time seemed to slow.

(Note that the previous day we had to retreat from an agressive bull that followed us for sixty yards in a mock charge and took two warning shots to first stop and then motivate to depart. A photo by Dave Hulme of the stand off is included - at least I think its the same stand off, the elephant has the notable hole in his right ear. Also I had elephant hunted with Rich for thirty eight days total over a couple of trips at the time of this incident and backing out and even warning shots were not new.)

JPK

Thanks, that makes sense.

Nice shot shootaway! You just missed the brain by at least 6 inches.

465H&H

JPK

As I have told you before WELL DONE.

There is nothing like elephant hunting up close with a good double rifle.

When I saw your double I tried to talk JJ into breaking a window and reporting a burglary.

450 NE No2,

Thanks. Also thanks for the tips regarding the AWSOME 450gr North Forks.

JPK

That was one Awesome Safari,the way I like it,Lots of shooting! Congrats on a Great hunt!