Just returned from a great hunt at Wiets Safari's,
but had a problem with the police at the airport.
I had all the docs, but was told that the letter
from the PH did not have his PH and outfitter's
numbers. Without those #s, my guns would be seized. They said this requirement was in effect
for the last 3 months. Fortunatly for me, I had his cell #, and he answered, and I was cleared.
I expect this crap changes from day to day, but
it served to raise my bp, and cost me an hour
(end of the line). So---if you are going through Jo'burg, you might get those numbers
from your PH, and save some grief.

This is not clear to me. Did you hunt in South Africa? I'll be overnighting and passing through to Zim but I know I have to get a temporary permit. I would have no idea if my PH has a number or not. Thanks for the heads up and any info on this.

Pathfinder: Yes, I hunted near Kimberly S.A.
I think, if you are "in transit", you do not have
to have a S.A. permit, which by the way, is now
8 pages long, and prepared on a computer by
someone who types as slow as a snail!

577

Don't blame the cops at JIA.....if anyone was at fault it was the outfitter......that requirement has ben in force for some months and PHASA has told all it's members more than once.......your outfitter should have got ALL that stuff arranged well in advance of your arrival.

Pathfinder

If you're importing your firearms into SA even overnight the same rules apply. I suggest you contact your outfitter and ask why they haven't told you about this before........

If

Thanks Guys...very helpful. I'm usually up to snuff on this stuff but didn't know that an outfitter number was now required. I have contacted my outfitter on this.

Whe you guys are taking about an "Outfitters Number" are you taking about telephone numbers or something else?

I ask because you must have the landline telephone number for the Outfitter rather than a mobile/cell number. Apparently the cops at the airport know the different dialing codes and just won't accept a mobile number on the paperwork..

Regards,

Pete

Good question, I guess I just assumed that it was a license number and when I emailed my Outfitter he immediately emailed me a copy of his license and it has a number on it. If it's telephone numbers I already had all that. Maybe I'll actually get the overnight permit! Oh, I do have a service helping me out at Jo'burg airport per the recommendation of Steve @ Gracy travel.

The numbers we are speaking of are license numbers, not phone #'s. My ph had a ph
number and an outfitter's license number.
He had sent me an invitation letter, which
gave the location of the ranch, dates, etc.
Not on the letter were his license #'s. I
also had a letter of intent which I had
written-To Whom it May Concern"-saying I
intended to hunt at xxx safaris, dates, etc.
The police took both letters as well as the
4457, passport, return airline ticket and
xerox'ed them. They checked guns for sr.#'s
and looked at/counted ammo. I had filled out the sap form in advance, and thought we were
OK. Alas, no ph license numbers!!
I just hope this helps others avoid the
problem we had. Regards, 577ne

Pathfinder, &577ne,

I am hunting with JJHack towards the end of next month, so I have been going through all this too.

As a Brit I thought I was pretty used to red tape and firearms, but this process is long winded to say the least. Plus it seems the the cops keep changing their minds how they read the legisation..

In the end on the advice and gentle prompting from Jim, I decided to use Air2000 instead and get things fixed up a head of time..

We had a couple of hiccups in the communication between us down to misunderstanding, but now everything seems to be going to plan...Hopefully my permit will be waiting for me at the airport.

Still I intend taking all the required documentaion as well just incase anything goes wrong at the last minute!

577ne, what was the score on the serial numbers on your rifles? I take it the SAPs are not asking for the serial number to be on the barrel and the action, as per an earlier scare when the legislation was changed?

Regards,

Pete

Pete E: Correct on the rifle sr. # We simply
slipped the rifles out of the cloth sleeve
enough to see the sr.#, pointed it out to them,
and they compared it to the 4457, and back it went
into the sleeve/case. Nothing was said or offered
concerning sr. #'s anywhere else.

577ne,

Thanks for that; thats one less worry! Out of curiousity,from getting off the plane to getting your permit, how long did it take? Were there many other hunters queueing? did you see any other problems?

Regards,

Pete

Last June I was unfourtune enough to be the very last person in line to clear firearms.It took 3 hours to get to me.One of the biggest problems was all the people who did not have any clue as to what was needed.Of the guys that did the most bitching apon exiting S.A.P.they all where the ones that where not ready.I'm talking bringing in shotgun shells,ammo for guns they did not have,more ammo the allowed,not knowing the name of the outfitter/P.H.,contact numbers.There was guys who's wife took off with their gun case keys, passports and return tickets because the wanted to go to get something to drink.I was really expecting the run-around when I entered from all the bitchers ahead of me.The officers that I dealt with where very happy to that my shit was in order.They appolagized for the time it took,but also stated that most people ahead of me did not have a clue as to what was needed.

They are currently asking for outfitters & PH's licence numbers and outfitters (landline) phone number and address as well as other things.

Regarding serial numbers the best thing you can do is either ask your outfitter or Ann at Air 2000 to confirm current requirements.

These new laws might be a pain in the ass but when they're worked in conjunction with the hunting ordinances they are actually a good thing for SA tourism in general as they will go a long way towards eradicating the con merchants and fly by nights......and that has to be to everyone's benefit.

quote:

These new laws might be a pain in the ass but when they're worked in conjunction with the hunting ordinances they are actually a good thing for SA tourism in general as they will go a long way towards eradicating the con merchants and fly by nights......and that has to be to everyone's benefit

Sorry Steve but if you think this is a good thing for SA or anywhere else I say you're wrong. I appreciate your advice on this issue but making things this difficult is Bullshit and if I didn't have to overnight in Jo'burg you can bet I'd stay away from SA as far as I could get.

I am ready to take off tomorrow morning and when I started to read this thread I had a panic attack. I checked the letter from my PH/Outfitter and he is on top of things with everything I need. I am impressed.

Pete E: The process took a little under 2 hours.
There were about 7 other groups, not as many as I've seen before. There were 3 very depressed
looking Belgians from an earlier flight who didn't have export permits for their guns, and were told
the guns would be impounded.
Steve: I do not agree that this is a good thing.
After 20 hours in an Airbus, this is the last thing anyone needs. These rules serve to deter
people from coming to S.A., which will hurt
PH's and outfitters. I've hunted in several other countries in Africa, and NONE have these
convoluted ever changing rules.

Gents,

Thanks again for the input. It seems the cause of the problems are far from one sided. It sounds as if folks are being held up by badly prepared hunters arriving in country with out the first idea of what is required.

Apart from the serial number cock-up, the SAPs website is very clear what paperwork is required and so is the PHASA website. Half the problem seems that some outfitters either don't tell their clients or are sloppy and have a "that'll do attitude"..

As an example the new regulations state you must have proof of permission to temporary export your firearm...

I have been told by some sources: "Your British firearms certificate will do" but thats is not what the letter of the RSA law says!

From the British Governments perspective, I don't need such an export permit, but after reading the SAPS web page I have made sure I have one; I just don't see the point of taking the risk!

Again the requirements of the Letter of Invitation with regards its content is laid out clearly on one of the web pages...Why don't outfitters/PH simply follow it's requirements to the letter? Once they have the correct template for the letter stored on a PC, it really could not be easier...

I tend to agree with Steve as to some of the reasoning for this...it should tie in with other regulations and stop hunters being ripped off by cowboys in the industry..

And as an aside, currently the worst country in the world for a non American to transit with firearms is America itself..After 9/11 and the various Homeland Security bills, it was virtually impossible for me to take a firearm into Canada via the States..I think it can be done today, but the paperwork is more horrendus than we are taking about here!

Regards,

Pete

quote:

virtually impossible for me to take a firearm into Canada via the States..I think it can be done today, but the paperwork is more horrendus than we are taking about here!

Unless something has changed very recently, I think it is still virtually impossible.

Cheers,
Canuck

Gents,

I think it's great we've got this forum to communicate with to keep everyone posted in a timely manner on current situations/topics.



I'd like to thank 577ne for taking the time to inform us hunters who will follow him this hunting season of any potential pitfalls.

I've read all the pertinent web pages, made phone calls, discussed with my outfitter and will ensure mine and the guests who are traveling with me have our document's in order. If they are not in order, I do not expect to be given preferential treatment.

My current take-away from reading this thread is that like everyone else; I don't appreciate making things more difficult than they should be but comply with local laws & customs and do it politely and curteously when abroad.

To further qualify that last statement; as an American Ex-Pat residing abroad I have to ensure that my paperwork is in order for the country I reside in, for countries where I spend my hunting vacations and ALSO to get my firearms back into my own home country, the good ole U.S. of A. The requirements today for an Ex-Pat to bring guns into the States for hunting, shooting & maintenance is every bit as time consuming and exaspirating as taking them to South Africa, so don't think for a nano-second that Americans have it easy or equal when traveling with firearms.

Like Pete E, I had to go German Customs and ask them to stamp & sign a document for me in "English" (according to the SAPS webpage) stating I could temporarily export my guns to SA. Initially they thought I was bonkers but after explaining what & why I needed - they politely complied. In all seriousness, they cold have insisted I obtain a certified translation of the document.

Like baboon, I have also stood at the SAP window in J-Burg (outwardly patient but inwardly screaming to-get-on-with-it!) while, usually Americans (remember - it's my experience) didn't have the correct paperwork, the wrong stuff (just count the ways.....) or couldn't find the serial number on the firearm they had (gee.....what's wrong with that picture.....?)

Net, thanks guys for sharing your experiences & opinions, let's hope by using this communicnations tool we can expidite our "can't wait to get hunting time at J-Burg airport".

I'll be bypassing RSA on my next trip to Africa. I don't have time for the crap. I'm not going to pay a Company to "help me through" the stupid regulations. I'm sure they won't miss my few measley thousands of dollars I would have contributed to the economy. Thats ok, I'll spend it somewhere else.
There are other options.

TJ my thoughts exactly! I'm even planning on flying from Frankfurt to Windhoek direct to skip Jo'burg.

Wynwodd, would you mind checking back in and letting us know how the flight went?

I would rather "just stick pins in my eyes" as soon as put up with the crap in J'burg. Oh, it took nearly 3 hours for two of us to get through the paperwork and we both had everything in order and there were no "problems" that we caused. The cops were surly and moved at the speed of honey in Jan. The airline personel were helpful, they at least realise that this crap is going to cost them money in the long run.

We just recently returned from Africa, where we had to deal with the rifle permit problem in Jo-Burg. We were over-nighting there on our way to and from Zimbabwe, and were required to have the proper paperwork upon entering South Africa both ways. We used to aid of Johan Coetzer with Optima Services to take care of the paperwork. His company took care of getting the paperwork to us prior to our departure from the states, met us at the airport and helped us through the procedure upon entering and leaving SA. I highly recommend their services, and the fee for their help was approximately $50.00 per hunter. It is money well spent. You can reach Johan at johan.optima@worldonline.co.za

Easy solution: Don't hunt in RSA.

I'm not hunting RSA but still couldn't avoid an overnight in Jo'berg unfortunately.

I don't like the regulations either....in fact they're a pain in the ass and we're also advising clients to avoid RSA if possible, but there is no doubt in my mind it will help stamp out the crooks and amateurs in the business here and that can only be a good thing.

I've just seen a Brit client off today and when he came into JIA he met another Brit hunter who had no paperwork and no knowledge of the new regulations.....which have now been in force for 11 months..........who's to blame for the cock up - the new act or the ineffecient outfitter he booked with?. My client was through the airport in about 20 minutes the other guy probably waited hours at least......

I get e-mails from hunters every week telling me they're coming to RSA to hunt but their outfitter isn't being helpful and asking me what they should do........Some people deserve help and I'll readily offer what advice I can - but others I just tell them that what they should have done was to book with a good company in the first place. After all, why should I help my competitors to do what they have already been paid to do but don't know how to do it.

After reading this thread, I think I'll go from Frankfurt to Windhoek when I go to Namibia.

I feel for the honest companies in RSA, between thieves on the streets of Jo'burg, in the safari business and in political offices,coupled with regulations that make traveling hunters change their minds as to which country to hunt, they are up against a wall.
Like I mentioned earlier I'll not spend another cent in RSA. There are just too many other options for the hunters thruout the world these days.

Steve, are you offering advice to overseas hunters or are you “head hunting†Nice adds for your business!THE NEW SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!!

hannesk,

I think that's a bit unfair on Steve...

I am hunting in RSA in less than a couple of weeks but for one reason or another, I am hunting with another outfitter rather than Steve.

However as he is a fellow Brit, I have chatted with Steve about African hunting in general and the hunting in RSA and he has been more than helpful with my questions even though I am not his client.

I know he has given other people advice too when he feels that he is not treading on the toes of other outfitters.

If Steve says he can see some good in the change of laws, I firmly believe thats his honest opinion.. As he books hunts in other African countries besides RSA, I don't see that he has anything to gain by saying this just for the sake of it...

Regards,

Pete

Hannesk,

I don't need to head hunt clients.......This year with the exception of 1 cancellation we are fully booked for myself & 2 other PH's in Tanzania and about half booked for 2006. Our Botswana DG seasons are fully booked (2 PHs) until 2008 our Mozambican season for 2005 is sold out and we have limited bookings left for 2006.

Something like 70% of our clients re-book within 12 months and we have clients who have hunted with us 15 times and are still re-booking......we ask every client to complete a questionaire after their hunt and have never had so much as a single criticism about anything.

We achieve all this without advertising or attending conventions. Instead we simply offer fantastic customer service, hunting and staff....and of course standing by our word.

So why would I need to head hunt clients?......

However I do feel incredibly strongly about the multitude of fly by nights, crooks and amateurs that occur in the safari industry. These people who have bad business and/or hunting ethics are screwing not only the African hunting industry but also the entire sport and anyone that doesn't realise that is a fool......if we don't get rid of these characters then the antis will get rid of us.

Despite that, you'll never see one of my posts criticising any one particular person or company (actually perhaps one!)......

Although I'm always willing to try to help individual hunters and/or forum members I'm not willing to make my experience available to help the previously mentioned fly by nights etc.

Pete,

Thanks for your support.

Shakari:There have been times when I may have taken a few of your posts in the wrong "air" of things, but this last post of yours has shown me a soild man of honor operating in a cut throat business an doing his best to keep it honest while distaining those whom would rather make a quick buck off of traveling hunters.
Well done man, well done!

I have just come back from Botswana after hunting with Steve and the service was excellent on top of two Rowland Ward Trophies. Lets face it African hunting is an expensive business and if you are worried about spending a few dollars on getting assistance through the import/export abministration then you deserve the hassel you get.If your outfitter failed to give you the option of Air 2000 you may have to ask how competent their administration is. Both entering and exiting SA firearms control took about 20 minutes using Air2000 who provided all the admin and local support. They know where to collect everything and it all gets fast tracked through the right offices. For a few dollars I want peace of mind knowing my firearm is correctly documented and escorted through the airport, I dont want to end up in a SA jail overnight or miss my flight.
Steve and Susan were spot on with all the hunt administration and I wont have a bad word said against them. I need a guy I can trust especially if he is standing behind me with a 500 Jeffries when I hunt that Buff in Selous.

Regards

Mark

I have started using these guys and so far there it is all positive feedback. He is a meet and greet and pre- clearing for rifles at the airport.

Optima Handeling

Folks,

Like Steve said the safari operators, booking agents and even travel agents should be making people aware of the regs. in RSA. If a hunter ends up at JIA this year being completely ignorant of the new regs. somebody severely screwed up.

Just by directing a client to Air 2000 or Optima all the hassle is avoided and process of entering the country is no more complicated than anywhere else. In fact I think it might be simpler.

Regards,

Mark

This may be a stupid question but what about coming through with bow hunting gear? I used Air 2000 last year at Joburg and went through with no problems at all and in about 20 minutes.I haven't heard much about how archery equipment is handled though.

your question is not stupid, it is only stupid not to ask the question for fear someone will try making a dick out of you for it!
I suggest you use Optima's VIP Assist service even though you do not need to register your bow with RSA,why? To have peace of mind that your bow/luggage makes the connecting flight out of Jo'burg, provided you're making one of course.
You'll be met at the gate and lead thru the maze quickly both coming and departing.

In theory you don't need to visit the firearms office unless you have a firearm with you......but for the cost of using Air 2000 or one of the other similar services you might thnk it's worth it......hell, I'd pay that much just to dodge the queue at passport control!

Mark H,

Susan & I both thank you for the compliment......it was a pleasure to hunt with you and we look forward to the next time!

I just returned from South Africa, and have a few observations. First, the sign outside the SAP office that says "no tipping" means nothing. When I presented my rifle and my permit, they nice officers told me that a tip was expected. I pointed out the sign to them and was told that if I didn't tip, I might not see my rifle again. Can you say, "extortion?"

Second, I know this is in reverse order, but here it is anyway. When we arrived, there were half a dozen of us hunters, two of which were going to Namibia on connecting flights. They had been told that no transit permit was required. Guess what? They had to go through the same riggamarole the rest of us did. One guy missed his flight, but do you think that mattered to the idiots in the police office? Not a bit.

Third, the process of issuing a permit should take approximately 15 minutes. It took almost three hours because of the inefficiency of the way they handle it. First, one officer takes your paperwork and checks it against your rifle. He then makes a few notations and then hands the paperwork to a second officer who laboriously hand copies it into a leger book which is not designed for the process. He even has to use a ruler to make lines in the book. This part takes about half an hour or so. Then the second officer passes the paperwork on to someone else who places it on a stack on top of a computer monitor. Next, someone types the information into the computer, not necessarily in the order in which the forms were received. An hour or so later, you get your completed permit. The information contained could easily be condensed onto one half a page, but is a five page printout.

Apparently, the system is designed to produce frustration in those who must navigate it. I did not use the services of any of the expiditing services. Those who did didn't make it through one tiny bit faster than I did, so I am at a loss to figure out what they were paying for.

The above are just my thoughts about a system that any competent time and motion study person would have nightmares about. I did email the ministry of tourism and also the SAP about this with my thoughts, but do not expect to hear anything from them.

This was my last South Africa hunt. My next African hunt will be in Namibia. I will take great pains to avoid having to go through Johannesburg at any time in the future.

Parkyhunter: I'm curious as to your problem of having to obtain a firearms permit even though you were just transiting through.This is the first I've heard of it and my travel agent, Debbie at Gracy Travel said subject paperwork in RSA is not required. I'm still going to engage the services of OPTIMA to get me through, but my bags and guns are checked all the way through to Bulawayo. Anybody else that was in a transit mode have problems in RSA lately?