Dino32HR -
I thought it better to create a whole new thread than chase you around each topic. I just noticed a message from a couple of weeks ago that I didn't see and therefore didn't reply to.

What I hoped we could do here is share some 7TCU loads with the specific purpose of silhouettes in mind. I've been working with both the 7 & 6.5 TCU for a year now and feel like I'm getting pretty close to my end goal, but it never hurts to share information.

I like the idea of 1)higher velocities to minimize grip inconsistencies, 2)lighter bullets to minimize recoil and 3)high BC's which make for a more efficient bullet flight. Simple right? Not really, because it means that I have to make compromises in order to come up with "the perfect" silhouette load. General consensus says that heavier bullets knock over the tough targets and that goes against goal #2 for me.

As a result I've targeted 1600 fps as my goal for everything except my ram load. This allows me to use a lighter bullet and still be reliable on knockdown of the targets. When it comes to the ram line I've started using 162gr Hornady AMAX because of their .625 BC (never mind the fact that I've got a bunch of them in my reloading room). This allows me to start them off around 1450fps which keeps recoil and blast down, yet still packs plenty of wallop at the ram line. As for my lighter bullets I prefer the high BC of Nosler's Ballistic Tip 120gr (.417). I could use them on rams if I wanted to push them around 1700-1750 but I arbitrarily decided that would mean too much muzzle blast.

I also prefer faster powders to the slower ones. Figuring the recoil equations means that recoil can be lowered 5-10% just by switching to lower amounts of faster powders. I started out with WW748 and that was much too "blasty" and then went to H4895 (still not much better). I then bought some H322 used some old IMR-4227 that I had laying around. I haven't had a chance to shoot the H322 because I liked the 4227 loads so much.

I would be very interested to hear others loads (as well as the reasoning for such loads) on this public forum. NEXT!

I have been shooting silhouette for five years now and my 7TCU load is 24grs. of H322 behind a Sierra 140 gr. Spitzer lit buy a Rem 7 1/2. End of story. Recoil is no problem. I shot a 80x80 with it on Sat. at the Internationals and a 60x60 a month ago at our Region 3 Match. I shoot in the UAS class with a Burris 4X scope and I'm going to go with a 2x7 or 3x9 scope after the Internationals since I'm getting my butt kicked in the shoot offs. 4 power is not enough scope for chickens set at 200 meters.

I've been shooting IHMSA off and on since '85' and my load for both my ten and fourteen inch off the rack TC Contender barrels, from chickens through rams, is;

A Sierra #1910 140gr bullet...26.0grs of IMR4895...Winch. brass...Winch. WSR primers...OAL 2.693.

I've not yet had the opportunity to shoot in a 60 or 80 round match but the above load has accounted for many 40x40's and won several shoot offs.

While I am not sure I have put all the reasoning into my 7mmTCU loads as you have, I have come to rely on two basic loadings.

For shooting in Production or Conventional class (read that as Creedmore) I use a CCI 400 primer, 26 grains of H 4895, and a Hornady 154 spire point. This load gives about 1750 fps out of my 10 inch barrel and I do not feel the muzzle blast or recoil is excessive.

Having said that, when shooting standing I found that load to be a little much. At a friend's suggestion (and after checking the load in several reloading manuals), I am now shooting 18.5 grains of IMR 4198 for standing with the other components remaining the same. This load produces about 1450 from my pistol and is much milder to shoot.

Sure, I could just shoot the IMR 4198 load for everything, but like the extra velocity of the H 4895 for windy conditions or tough rams (Or maybe I am just stubborn, I have been shooting that load for about 10 years now!)

R F

I have been in the IHMSA game off and on since about 1980. I started out as a junior shooter, and have had a 7TCU since about 1984. I have tried numerous loads over the years, but I always end up at the same place:

26.0 grains of IMR 4895
RP Case
Rem 7.5 BR Primer
Hornady 139 gr SP (#2820)

This load will outshoot me most days. It has accounted for more 40s than I can remember, and will do well on the shootoffs if I do my part. I am not currently shooting well, but that is due to one thing only - lack of practice and committment on my part. The gun and load will still shoot the scores any day.

I have helped several other guys work out loads for their 7TCUs, and the results for them are usually similar. Try any 135 - 145 bullet. Try IMR 4895, H4895, or H322. Pick the primer of your choice. Load up test rounds in .5 grain powder increments with your chosen powder and bullet combination. One of the three powders above will eventually give you the "sweet" spot.

I tend to test my loads at 50 yards with open sights, but you may want to use a scope. Its up to you. I use open sights, because that is the way that I am going to shoot in the end.

If your results are similar to what I have seen, your groups will be large with the lightest loads. They will start to decrease in size as the powder charge increases. Your smallest groups will occur between 25 and 27 grains of IMR 4895, and then the groups will begin to open up again as the powder charge increases. I have yet to see a 7TCU barrel that wont shoot. I am sure there are some out there, but they must be few and far between.

I started in 75 and all the powders you all have listed woek well my greatest accuacy has been from 3031, I also change bullet wt at rams found that bullet impact was higher due to recoil and did not have to change sights position from 150 to 200m

I see that 4895 is more common that I thought. Then again, most of you using it are shooting freestyle where I don't consider muzzle blast to be near as much of an issue. Recoil really isn't a big issue, but I find it does become a factor as I try to shoot my first standing INT score. This seems to be much more of an issue from the 10" barrel because I've had no problem loading up my 14" 6.5TCU will a bunch of WW748.

Maybe another factor is how close you hold the gun to your face. How many of you shoot Taco style with the 7TCU?

Are there opinions out there regarding a comparison between 4227 & 4759? I've used some 4759 in my Hornet and it seems to be a really bulky powder...just the kind of thing that I like for reduced loads. Another one that I would like to try is XMR-5744.

Gents -

To all who have contributed to this discussion - thank you !

In an effort to add some light to this discussion of powders and hot loads Vs. lighter loads, I have supplied some pictures of the muzzle flash (day & night shots) and the 139gr. bullet in flight using 25 gr. of H4895 for the 7mm TCU.

Is this what it feels like to the rest of you using 25 gr. of H4895 in a standing, hand-held shooting stance with the 10" 7mm TCU ?

It does me !

The pictures are here:

Firing of the H4895-powered 7mm TCU

[ 08-30-2002, 02:31: Message edited by: Dino32HR ]

Come on Dino, it can't be that bad. I have been fooling with the 7TCU for a long time and always thought it was pretty mild?

I don't like recoil either & even with the problems That I'm having I don't think it's that bad. Of course I'm shooting it as a carbine.

I think my worst recoil comes from my 45 Colt barrel with 300 Grain bullets going 1350 at the muzzle. It is something to hold onto.

Rich Jake

No, it's not really that bad. I ran across these pictures yesterday and couldn't resist connecting the two !

I shoot a .45 ACP Colt Commander with decent loads and 230 gr. bullets and the 7TC makes that feel wimpy.

The 10" barrel seems to really accentuate the recoil. I'm told the 14" barrel really helps to the reduce recoil - as well as add velocity. Probably should have gone that way but wanted to stay Production-class.

I just obtained some H4227 and will be working-up some loads with that. From the many posting on this load, it sounds like that will solve my problem. As also suggested in this post - I may even consider going to a 120 gr. bullet for the chickens, pigs and turkeys, further adding more level of control to my BB shooting. I'll just use the 139 gr. bullets for the rams.

Thanks, sorry to all for the ruse , but again, I felt it TOO funny to resist !

Excellent! I'm glad to see that you've joined me on "the dark side". I think that I'm going to drop a grain on my loads and try that as it seems to have plenty of power (my 120gr loads). Next reloading session I'll put 17gr of 4227 under my Nosler 120gr Ballistic Tips.

My only problem at the moment is that my 150 & 200m sight settings aren't quite dialed in. My last match saw mixed results as I decided not to take my sighter shots and proceeded to miss the first 4 chickens!(remember that this is standing and I didn't have a spotter) I got myself squared away and hit the next 15 targets as I missed my very last pig (I'm going to blame that on the fact that my glasses fogged over so bad that I could hardly see my sights...I hate hot humid days!). I thought that I could salvage a decent score but it was not to be as my sight settings seemed to be off and I only took down 4 of the last 20 targets. Oh well, another year to make INT class.

Dino, a friend of mine is selling a Wichita 7 Int-R. I suggest that you touch one of those off as it makes the 7 TCU look like a pussy cat. (It's basically a 7-30 Waters if you're not familiar.) You'd have to get pictures of the "Guns of Navarone" to find an equivalent to that one!

Brett, when you are light loading the 7 TCU, is the brass sealing the chamber off? I guess what I mean is, I started out as always with a start load, but there was some soot behind the shoulder. After a few rounds of this my brass started sticking pretty bad. I have had this happen with both military brass and commercial brass. The 6 TCU will do the same thing??
I worked both rounds up to around a mediuum load and the sooting went away. I just figured that there was not enough pressure to make the brass seal the chamber.
Jeff

for all you who shoot the 7TCU..how do you feel in compares with the .357 MAx?? recoil wise.... Accuracy.....and Deer killing Abilitues.
Always wanted one

Fireball

Brett, the only reason I brought this up was that if there was a residue behid the shoulder, the brass wasn't expanding enough to grip the chamber. Thus you would have more rearward bolt thrust than normal. I don't know if this would be a concern with the small case head though.
I would think that your velocities would be on consistant as well? You do a HELL of a job in the standing! But I think every bit of accuracy helps in this catagory.
Jeff

Jeff - Thanks for the compliment. Hopefully tomorrow I will have a good day with the Hornet in Field Pistol as I've got a couple of goals in mind for my last shoot of the season.

Regarding case head thrust, I figure if the load doesn't have enough pressure to expand the brass then it surely doesn't have enough pressure to be stretching frames. As for the brass growing in length, I haven't seen it after two loadings and I've tested it with the calipers and by dropping them back into the chambers to see if they still allow the gun to close easily. All seems well so I'm sticking with it for now until I learn something to the contrary.

Next year when I start shooting silhouettes again, I'll have to make a point to sit down and chat with you. I just haven't had the luxury of lingering very long at either Tri-Co or Higginsville after I finish shooting my couple of events.

A friend I shoot with sent me this article. I don't know who the author was, but thought I'd share it with you all. Makes one ponder now, don't it ??

"Let us take the 7 TCU, which is about as average a silhouette cartridge as there is. We'll assume that we're going to launch a 140-grain Sierra flat base bullet out of a 14" TC. We'll be using a load of 28.4 grains of Winchester's 748 powder.

Velocity is a very respectable 1900 fps. On the other hand, our 300 Whisper is going to be using a 220 grain 30 caliber Sierra bullet moving along at a very leisurely 1050 fps - almost half the speed of the 140 grain bullet. Let's see what happens at 200 meters.

When the 7 TCU's 140 grain bullet hits the ram, it'll be going 1349 fps. In other words, it'll have lost a whopping 551 fps, or nearly 29% of its original velocity. In a very gentle 5 mile an hour side wind, it will have also drifted over nearly 6 inches. Additionally, recoil will be 15.3 foot pounds, which is considered moderate. Striking momentum on the ram will be .83 pound seconds - safely adequate to push the ram over.

The 300 Whisper will be a very different story. When its 220 gr bullet hits the ram, it'll still be going 983 fps. Amazingly, it will have only lost a miserly 67 fps over the 200 meter course! Compare that to the 7 TCU loosing 551 fps at the same distance. Well, you might say, there's bound to be a lot more wind drift because the bullet is moving so slow. Wrong. That’s not how it works. Wind drift will be only 3.8 inches or 36% less than the 7mm bullet.

How about recoil? That big 220 has got to produce a lot more recoil than the 140, right? Wrong again. Recoil comes out to only 6.6 foot pounds - 56% less than the faster, but smaller 140 gr bullet. Momentum knockdown for the Whisper will be .96 pound seconds or 13.5% more push on the target. So here we have a case where you have less velocity loss,

Oh, by the way, the Whisper can do all that while delivering a half MOA in accuracy at 200 meters."

Hmmmmm.

Dino - You have discovered the benefits of high BC bullets in subsonic flight. The only drawback to this approach is the fact that I belive shooting a round like this makes the gun more "grip sensitive" because the bullets spends a bit more time in the barrel while the pistol is recoiling. All pistols begin recoiling before the bullet leaves the barrel so the actual point of impact is affected by how tight or loose you grip the gun. Obviously the goal is to keep your grip the same to you can have the same POI. I haven't been able to test this out to find out if it even makes a difference...maybe my theory is just bunk! ...or maybe it makes a difference. Either way, I would really like to have a .300 Whisper to try it out. I suppose that maybe I will pick one up this off season so I can give it a try.

I've shot a friend's Whisper who was shooting a 190gr bullet about 1100fps. It really was very mild shooting. I've seen two rams rung with it at a shoot I go to, but it has often been a "problem" ram. I've rung the same one with my .357 Max, and another "cowboy" shooter hit it with his .30-30 rifle and failed to knock it over. Bottom line is that occasionally it can be marginal, but it is certainly adequate especially when you get to shoot such a mild round.

Stick with high BC bullets either in the 7TCU or the 300 Whisper. They will only help your trajectories and wind drift numbers. Personally, I'm not giving up on my 7 TCU just yet as I have one and I don't think that I'm really handicapped by it. Heck, Hal Simpkins turns in mid 30's scores year-after-year in the standing category by shooting a .357 Magnum. If it were really THAT much of an issue I don't think he would be able to do something like that with such a ballistically challenged round like the old .357 Mag!

Bret, et al -

Well, I did it - got me some 4227, loaded up a few differant drops and went a-shootin'.

The best load I found:
16.5 grains of H4227
Fed Case
CCI SR Primer
Hornady 139 gr SP (#2820)
1490 fps avg. (10" barrel)
OAL: 2.625
0.75" group @ 50 yds.

Decent recoil (but LOUD). Definitely able to "taco" this load. Need to play with OAL and powder weight yet, but a good start.

Primers looked fine, no cratering, no push-out, no flow. I have the brass fit very well to the chamber. I DID NOTICE that the neck was not sealing too well as cited in this forum previously. The burn marks traveled down about 80% of the neck. Nothing past there or on the shoulder. Have not seen this with the H4895. This is another reason I want to increase the load a tad.

This load is right from the Hodgdon manual. I usually use 2.685 for OAL, but tried this too for the heck of it. It was more accurate than the 2.685" OAL. I started at 16.0 grains of 4227 and got about a 1.25" group @ 50 yds. with that. I think I will do some more tests and sneak up to 17 gr. of H4227 by going up in .2 gr. intervals to see if the group tightens and how much it affects the velocity.

Bottom line is group size. If I get the best group @ 16.5, so be it. If I need to go to 17, and all indications point toward a safe load, that's where I'll be.

Next is to test some loads with a 120 gr. bullet. Will be ordering those this week.

Stay tuned !

I like IMR4895 for rifles, so after reading about 26gr in the 7TCU with 140gr bullets, I gave it a try. I loaded 20 with 22 gr, 15 with 23gr, and 15 with 24gr of IMR4895 with RP 6 1/2 primers and RP 140 gr bullets. I shot them yesterday at 100 yd. in a 14" contender with Tasco 4-16 scope, 5 shot groups. The 22gr loads went into 1 7/16", 2 1/4", 1 5/8" and 1 5/8" for 4 shots, lost one over the top of the target. 23gr were 3 3/8", 3 3/4", 4 1/8". 24 gr were 4 9/16", 2", 1 1/2".
Other shooters were packing up and leaving and complaining and rolling on the ground holding their ears. Fortunately I'm pretty well deaf, so it didn't bother me too much under my plugs n' muffs. The headache is almost gone now. I'll send the scope out for repair, and get the copper out of the bore in a month and a quart of Sweets or so. And I'll go back to IMR227, 14gr shoots around 1 1/4" average without making my arm tingle for 24 hours. Thanks for the advice.
joe b.

Brett, do you have any way to get a hold of Mark Clevenger? Have him contact me here or send a P M to me about the mil surplus powder. Are you interested in any for yourself? E mail me if you are.
Jeff