I am looking for a 200-250 yard deer cartridge that will work well in a 10" Encore/Contender barrel. Does anyone have any experiences and data that they would like to share? What bullet have you used? What velocities have you been getting? I would like to find a cartridge that can cleanly take a deer from 200 to 250 yards, and yet does not have too big a muzzle flash, etc. Ideas I have had are the 7x30 Waters, .30-30, .300 Whisper and the 410 GNR, but I am open to any idea.

Thanks,

Jesse

ruger270 wrote: "I am looking for a 200-250 yard deer cartridge that will work well in a 10" Encore/Contender barrel...Ideas I have had are the 7x30 Waters, .30-30, .300 Whisper and the 410 GNR, but I am open to any idea."

Jesse-

The calibers listed along the the parameters simply are stretching things a good bit. If you want that type of performance, you really need to move up to a 14-15" barrel.

With that as the platform, a 7-30 can cover 250 yards under ideal conditions using the 120 grain Nosler BT.

Another good caliber for the Contender is the 6.5 JDJ, which drives a 120 grain bullet to 2400 fps and will do the trick to 250 yards given 14" of barrel length.

If you want the most oomph from the Contender for deer, then take a look at the 30-30 AI and the .309 JDJ -- but again, we are talking longer barrels.

If you move up to the Encore, then rounds such as the .260, 7mm-08 and .308 are certainly up to the task given proper bullet selection and a good job by the shooter. But again, the longer barrel is your best bet.

You can chamber one of the .308-based rounds in a 10" barrel. But if you go with, for instance, the 7-08, you won't gain any edge over the more efficient 7BR and will barely be ahead of the little 7 TCU -- but you will have a heck of a lot more muzzle blast and recoil to deal with.

In a 10" Encore, the 7BR will handle 200 yards but will be a bit lacking at longer distances.

There are lots of tradeoffs to consider, but after years of handgun hunting, I tend to look at things this way: If there's a deer I can't cleanly kill inside of 250 yards with a 6.5mm JDJ from a 14" Contender barrel, then I would not be able to kill it with anything more potent, either.

I should have added: from a 10" barrel, 2 old standbys for ranges out to 150 yards are the .357 Max and the .44 Magnum -- so I guess you could put the .41 Mag into that same vein.

For efficiency in a 10" Contender, the .30 Herrett is tough to beat, but it does limit your range to 150 or may 175 yards using the excellent 125 grain Ballistic Tip.

One of the forum's top handgunning experts is Larry from South Dakota, and I know he had good luck with a 10" 7-30 Waters out to ranges most folks shouldn't even consider.

Hopefully he will drop in and relate his experiences with the 10" 7-30 for you. If I remember correctly, he, too, used the 120 grain BT.

What kind of velocity could one expect from a 10" 7BR with a 120 gr. bullet?

From a 10" Encore in 7BR, you can expect 2250 to maybe 2300 fps on the top end with a 120 grain bullet.

30 & 357 Herrett were developed for 10 inch barrel. I am not sure about velocities and usable range but, if i were going to stay with a Contender in 10 inch barrel, one of these would be my choice. Just my opinion. I am sure with the higher pressures of an Encore there are a lot more choices. Good luck with whatever you choose. Do like the rest of us sick people and get several, one is bound to work.


Safe shooting
Doug

Doug-

The .30 Herrett is a solid 150-yard performer when teamed with the 125 grain BT. It can be stretched to maybe 175 yards under optimum conditions.

The .357 Herrett covers basically the same range, but with heavier projectiles, it has the ability to tackle larger critters.

Thanks for the kind words Bobby.

Yes I have hunted with a 10" Contender chambered for the 7-30 Waters Cartridge. I was shooting 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with W-748. Average group sizes from the bench at 100 yards were in the 1" to 1 1/4" range, and a little tighter when I was having a good day.

The first Whitetail harvested with my 10" 7-30 Waters was not buy me. My cousin's husband over in Minnesota had the opportunity to harvest a nice 4x4 Whitetail Buck at a little over 200 yards. Bob's season opened before our South Dakota season and he jumped at the chance to use the 10" 7-30 Waters. The shot was behind the shoulder taking out the lungs. At the shot the Buck took off, covered 30 yards or so and collapsed stone dead.

When South Dakota's season opened I knew my 10" 7-30 Waters would perform. My chance came late on evening with about 5 minutes of shooting time left. In the dimming light I thought the 4x4 Buck was a long ways off, so I held high. As it turned out the buck was farther than I thought (let's just say it was lasered the next day and it was over 250 yards). I hit high on the near side shoulder, clipped the bottom of the spine and the bullet exited through the top of the off side shoulder leaving about a quarter sized exit hole. The buck dropped in it's tracks.

The very next afternoon driving in so I could laser the distance to the previous evenings Buck, I spotted a spike buck in a food plot. I snuck out of my vehicle and managed to sneak within 50 yards of the little spike and put a 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip between his eyes. Obviously bullet performance was not an issue.

My youngest daughter and I hunted for several more days without any opportunities for a shot. Then one evening about sunset (after about 6" of fresh snow) we spotted a few does down in a steep draw out 220 yards. I lined up on the largest doe, the crosshairs right behind the near side shoulder, centered top to bottom and touched the trigger. I heard the bullet hit, saw the doe jump and kick and she took off. She ran in about a 40 yard circle and as she completed the first lap fell over stone dead. I hit a rib going in and going out, the lungs were destroyed and she was dead at the shot, just had to run out of blood to convince herself.

I have since played with a buddies 10" 7mm T/CU, again shooting 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips but with H-322 Powder. Man was that thing accurate but the most I could squeak out of it was about 2050 FPS. To my knowledge my buddy never has hunted with it.

I also did some load testing / accuracy testing on a buddies 12" T/C Custom Shop 7mm-08 Remington T/C Encore. Yep 15" of barrel is a good idea with a '08 based case. Man that 12" 7mm-08 Bellered and Roared. In reality look at the specs on the T/C web site. That 12" Encore is only about an inch or so shorter than a Super 14 Contender.

The most accurate load I came up with for the 12" 7mm-08 Encore again used the 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip loaded with H-4895 Powder. Accuracy was good with most groups going into 3/4" at 100 yards. However the velocity was a little less than I am currently getting from the SST Super 14 7-30 Waters that I am shooting this year. The 12" 7mm-08 chruned up about 2390 FPS (I'd have to look it up to be exact). To my knowledge the owner of that Encore has never taken a Whitetail with it that I know of.

While I never found any load data for it I always wanted to try IMR or H 4198 powder in the 10" 7-30 Waters. Considering the results I obtained with a Super 14 .30-30 Ackley Improved with 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips using IMR & H 4198 Powders I think it just may have been the powder to try in the 10" 7-30 Waters.

Now that I have you thoroughly confused, I'll shut up.

Larry

PS I have always wanted to try the .30-30 Ackley Improved in a 10" Contender but never have. Just a guess but I am thinking a 10" .30-30 Ackley Improved will produce about the same velocity / ballistics with a 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip as is possible with a Super 14 .30-30 Winchester, albeit with more recoil and muzzle blast.

I have a buddy that is shooting 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips in a SST Super 14 .30-30 Winchester loaded with AA #2230 to a muzzle velocity of 2400 FPS. He has taken 3 or 4 Whitetails with it out to around the 200 yard mark with excellent results.

quote:

Originally posted by SDHandgunner:

PS I have always wanted to try the .30-30 Ackley Improved in a 10" Contender but never have. Just a guess but I am thinking a 10" .30-30 Ackley Improved will produce about the same velocity / ballistics with a 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip as is possible with a Super 14 .30-30 Winchester, albeit with more recoil and muzzle blast.

My Ackley Improved 10" Contender does just about exactly that. I was unhappy with it's abilities as it came from the factory in standard .30-30 chambering. Ack Improving it helped a lot. A few fps is a few fps...It is not braked or ported in any form and recoil is entirely manageable.

Might consider this option, as it was just in the inbox from my T/C barrel guru:

Check out the bit on the .300 Whisp-R Improved 12" Contender barrel & dies available for sale here.

Mike is currently doing a .375 H&H magnum 15.5" out of a .375JDJ barrel for my Encore, so this is not a paid advertisement...Just a suggestion.

Thanks for chiming in on the 10" .30-30 Ackley Improved. I still may have to get one of them someday as I do like the 10" T/C Contenders.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by SDHandgunner:
Thanks for chiming in on the 10" .30-30 Ackley Improved. I still may have to get one of them someday as I do like the 10" T/C Contenders.

Larry

It does bark enough that I had a woman the lane over at the indoor 100 yard range complain this last Sunday that I was making her all jittery and she couldn't shoot with me on the range, but it's no worse than my 15.5" barrel non-braked .223 AckImp and less of a flamethrower. If she can't handle the sound of gunshots she shouldn't go to shooting ranges...That said, I'm off to the range with it again this morn.

Thanks for all of the input guys! I think that I will use all of this information to my advantage...I will just have to tell my wife that I need few barrels. When I am hunting someplace where I know the shots will be longer I will carry a 15" barrel, but otherwise I will find a nice sub 200 yard 10" barrel caliber. I really love the 41 caliber, so I am leaning toward a 41 GNR or 410 GNR. But, the original barrel will be a .41 mag., and maybe I will like it so much that I won't want to have it rechambered.

Thanks again,

Jesse

quote:

Originally posted by ruger270:
Thanks for all of the input guys!

Standardish (though improved) 10" 30-30 T/C hog shooting barrel, this morning's results.

Iron sights, one handed bullseye style (no rests involved), 25 yards. Standard Lever gun loads. 150 Grain flat points for wad-cutting porpoises...easier to see with my old eyes without use of a spotter scope.



Easily gets one in the boiler room with irons in close and either it or the AckleyImp barrel with a scope on it reaches out and touches things mostly reliably to two-fifty with a rest and good ammo.

I was getting in 200 rounds of hog shooting practice this morning, hence the one-handing. Gun shoots about 1.33-2 MOA, depending on ammo/loadings, without operator errors.

Oh, and for bobby tomek, who lambasted me for shooting a Zebra at range with a .223 rifle head shot last fall on these forums...I wouldn't shoot at anything other than paper or steels with the 10" barrel standard 30-30 Contender outside of 125 yards even with a good scope mounted and a very solid rest. Rainbow trajectories aren't my favorite thing at longer ranges in field usage.

tom wrote: "Oh, and for bobby tomek, who lambasted me for shooting a Zebra at range with a .223 rifle head shot last fall on these forums...I wouldn't shoot at anything other than paper or steels with the 10" barrel standard 30-30 Contender outside of 125 yards even with a good scope mounted and a very solid rest. Rainbow trajectories aren't my favorite thing at longer ranges in field usage."
---


tom- I take offense to your post, which is an OUTRIGHT LIE. I never lambasted you. That's not my style as I was raised better. Want a refresher course on that thread??? This is what YOU wrote.
"May your next heart-lung shot be an accidental gut shot that crawls off and dies in a very inconvenient place for you to recover it"

This was MY response: "That statement speaks volumes about your character -- or lack thereof. Hoping an animal suffers simply because you disagree with another poster is the height or immaturity and selfishness.

As to the topic of the thread, I don't head-shoot deer but don't chastise those who do. However, I must add that many shooters I come in contact with do not have the discipline or skill to successfully pull off a head or neck shot at anything beyond point blank range. (Many simply over-estimate their abilities.)

tom wrote:

quote:

I was getting in 200 rounds of hog shooting practice this morning, hence the one-handing.

Hmmm...I don't know of any serious handgun hunters who would purposefully take a less-than-stable shot at a game animal. Why don't you either use a rest ot at least a 2-handed hold?

From a cursory glance at your target, that appears to be around 14 MOA (3.5" group at 25 yards).

Just curious...

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
tom wrote:

quote:

I was getting in 200 rounds of hog shooting practice this morning, hence the one-handing.

Hmmm...I don't know of any serious handgun hunters who would purposefully take a less-than-stable shot at a game animal. Why don't you either use a rest ot at least a 2-handed hold?

From a cursory glance at your target, that appears to be around 14 MOA (3.5" group at 25 yards).

Just curious...

Running pigs, unexpected, thick brush. I don't hunt over feeders like most Texans. How do you set up a stable rest on a running animal? Pintle Mount? I'd think a "serious handgunner" would "practice for ALL possibilities." We've already had our battle over hunting "ethics" and I'm not going around the mulberry bush with you again about such things. If they were further out than at a range where I'd think I had a high odds of getting one in the boiler room, I wouldn't take the shot. Hence the 25 yards practice...Given the choice of a probable successful snap shot one handed or watching the pig run away while carefully setting things up two handed inside of 25 yards, I'll shoot with one hand. Think of it as IDPA/IPSC with feral hogs. Most of the hogs I see on MY personal acreage appear and rapidly disappear into the thick cedars and tall grass in a stream of 1 to 5 pigs inside of 15 yards range. Is that a good enough answer? Sitting in a blind by a feeder is boring as f*ck. I'd rather watch people play tournament bridge on tv. It's called "hunting" not "sitting in a box being bored."

Contender shoots much better from a machine rest than I do practicing snap shots. Shocking! I'm glad you informed me of this, as I was entirely unaware that the operation of the firearm affects the accuracy...after you are done schooling me, you can go down to your local cop shop and explain to them why they might think of putting bipods on their sidearms or perhaps carry shooting sticks while on patrol...

quote:

Originally posted by ruger270:
I really love the 41 caliber, so I am leaning toward a 41 GNR or 410 GNR. But, the original barrel will be a .41 mag., and maybe I will like it so much that I won't want to have it rechambered.

Don't forget the 414 SuperMag, it is excellent out of a Contender, and qualifies for most straightwall restrictions if ever necessary. The 30-30 AI or 7-30 Waters would be the deal in the 14" or longer barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
tom wrote:

quote:

I was getting in 200 rounds of hog shooting practice this morning, hence the one-handing.

Hmmm...I don't know of any serious handgun hunters who would purposefully take a less-than-stable shot at a game animal. Why don't you either use a rest ot at least a 2-handed hold?

From a cursory glance at your target, that appears to be around 14 MOA (3.5" group at 25 yards).

Just curious...

Running pigs, unexpected, thick brush. I don't hunt over feeders like most Texans. How do you set up a stable rest on a running animal? Pintle Mount? I'd think a "serious handgunner" would "practice for ALL possibilities." We've already had our battle over hunting "ethics" and I'm not going around the mulberry bush with you again about such things. If they were further out than at a range where I'd think I had a high odds of getting one in the boiler room, I wouldn't take the shot. Hence the 25 yards practice...Given the choice of a probable successful snap shot one handed or watching the pig run away while carefully setting things up two handed inside of 25 yards, I'll shoot with one hand. Think of it as IDPA/IPSC with feral hogs. Most of the hogs I see on MY personal acreage appear and rapidly disappear into the thick cedars and tall grass in a stream of 1 to 5 pigs inside of 15 yards range. Is that a good enough answer? Sitting in a blind by a feeder is boring as f*ck. I'd rather watch people play tournament bridge on tv. It's called "hunting" not "sitting in a box being bored."

Contender shoots much better from a machine rest than I do practicing snap shots. Shocking! I'm glad you informed me of this, as I was entirely unaware that the operation of the firearm affects the accuracy...after you are done schooling me, you can go down to your local cop shop and explain to them why they might think of putting bipods on their sidearms or perhaps carry shooting sticks while on patrol...

One more thought to add:
I've been a musician all my life: string things, guitar more particularly, being my forte, although I dabble in others.
Smartest guitar guru I ever had said "you aren't a classical guitarist, you aren't a country guitarist, you aren't a rock or pop guitarist, you aren't a folk guitarist, you aren't a jazz guitarist...if you tell people you are a guitarist you should be well rounded and capable in all disciplines of your instrument, not just a favorite one or two." Should be the same with shooting IMHO.

I shall also add that I have not yet come up with a rapidly acquired two handed grip/stance for this particular frame/barrel/forend combination that I'm comfortable with. I know the many ways and I haven't decided which one works for me. Modified Chapman more or less works but my weak hand doesn't seem to naturally go to the right place like it does with a 1911 or a properly fit rifle or shotgun in a snap-shooting situation. My African Outfitter friend said to me once "Why do you waste your time on this? The rifle is best. No question." But I want to figure out how to do it.

Practice, reading, and experimentation are all I've got to go on in this regard. Changing around of grips and forends...BUT at this particular point in time, with that particular Contender setup, I feel more comfortable one-handing it under said circumstances. 3.5" at 25 yards is good enough to likely get the lungs at the very worst. It's not like I'm going to get a chance at a rapid follow up shot where I hunt pigs so getting sights back on target rapidly in a single shot pistol isn't a very useful thing to worry about. Muzzle flip is a non-issue with a single shot as long as you can hold onto it.

With practice and testing maybe I'll find something grip/stance-wise that suits me better and with practice my "personal MOA ability" does improve. I've shot about 1500 rounds pistol in the past three days alone. I reckon it'll get better. No sense in paying 400/year for a range membership if you don't use it.

So, Tom, after all of this bandwidth, I still must ask: "exactly WHERE were you lambasted???"

I await your succint reply.

tom wrote:

quote:

you can go down to your local cop shop and explain to them why they might think of putting bipods on their sidearms or perhaps carry shooting sticks while on patrol...

Hmmm...do cops never practice a two-handed hold? Maybe I am senile in my recollection, but much of the range time of officers I know involves a two-handed stance.

Also, comparing your hog hunting excursions to someone's lifetime commitment of serving to protect fellow man is simply ludicrous.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
tom wrote:

quote:

you can go down to your local cop shop and explain to them why they might think of putting bipods on their sidearms or perhaps carry shooting sticks while on patrol...

Hmmm...do cops never practice a two-handed hold? Maybe I am senile in my recollection, but much of the range time of officers I know involves a two-handed stance.

Also, comparing your hog hunting excursions to someone's lifetime commitment of serving to protect fellow man is simply ludicrous.

Bobby: I noticed I still had your postings blocked when I looked at this post so as to avoid arguing with you and reckoned you to be one of the lambasters. Sorry if I was slightly off target on that one. I didn't feel like wading back through that forum of last fall one more time just like I don't pick at scabs. I've been on a bit of an internet holiday because I had other things to do besides stare at a monitor too many hours of the day. Consider that an apology.

I never ever said I didn't practice two handed holds. I'm actually rather good at them and practice them a lot, which is how I got to be good at them. I said I've been trying a lot of variations and I haven't found one that comes up as quickly for snap shooting porpoises yet, though I've been trying, if you read my "waste of bandwidth". Experiment and modify until I find a happy medium while being capable of either is my goal. I was making no suggestion that Contenders et al should only be shot one-handed, I was explaining the largish grouping in the photo.

I said you should be able to do both one and two hands, both strong and weak side if one is to call oneself a handgunner. If one is to choose to to only "hunt" one way, that's also your call, but I'd find it limiting and I don't like blind hunting as stated above, I'd do it for survival and know how, but it's not my druthers to do so, given the chance at a chase or stalk. Would you want to miss a trophy of a lifetime because you didn't have a skill set you could have acquired but didn't?

After wasting all of the bandwidth of a handful of posts since last fall...The LEO comment...It was intentionally ludicrous, but also funny, and it made a point. Cops and tactical people of various sorts practice all of the above methods of firing handguns if they are worthy of being anything other than desk cops. Hunting is no more an ideal world than a street beat and expecting to always be able to choose exactly when/how one took shots on game animals would be quite limiting in real world performance. Hyperbole has it's place in a dispute at times.

Bird hunters know they are going to miss and wound a certain percentage, however low that is depending on the particular fellow's skill, but nobody cries foul about bird hunting with scatterguns being "unethical or stupid."

Regards and I don't really wish you ever to wound and lose an animal, unintentionally or intentionally just because we disagree on things, but I'm not gonna go walk around the thick brush of my back acres and friend's ranches around here with a pintle-mounted contender. May as well carry a rifle at that point. 125-150 yards on a deer I'd find a rest, be scoped, and be prone; but that's a whole different thing than running hogs up close.

Regards,
Tom
Hill Country of Texas where the pigs are many as the deer, if not more so, and the underbrush and cedars are quite thick at times.


Addendum: My friend who lent me the scoped monkey rifle to make the mid-probability shot on the Zebra (because it would have been entirely un-probable with the .375 sans scope, using only express sights at that range, the bead covering the whole animals head at that range) with a well dialed in and familiar .223 BRNO has stated after the fact (about 6 months later) in a conversation we had: "I wouldn't have tried it but I LIVE here in Africa and you only had 6 weeks on your quest for this mare and you were 4 days from going home. Therefore I understood your headshot and I knew your abilities so I was reasonably comfortable with letting you try. As for myself, I'd just go back until I got her, however long it took, because I live here (RSA) and can."

Pardon the minor thread-jacking, Ruger.

All that settled, I'm off to run some errands and go to the range intent on once again practicing both one and two handed holds from multiple positions with handguns with open sights, some of which will be single shot pistols. Maybe I'll find a fast two handed Contender hold I like today?

@ bobby:

Mostly did .22-45 and Mk II speed drills today at the range.

Took same 10" barrel 30-30 Contender to prove a point. All one handed practice from low rest to on target except one final shot before I packed up to come home.


Here is your result from low rest, hammer down to hammer back, thumbed safety, and firing a "parting shot" for my range day at 25. Proper slowly acquired, iron sighted, 2-handed, no rest hold (which I estimate takes me about 3-4 times as long to get on target, though I didn't have anybody clock me). Rest of holes are .22LR 25 yard speed drills. Wasn't gonna buy another target just to make a point and didn't want to confuse .30 holes in my 30-30 target paper with my one handed practice earlier with the 30-30:



You can consider that my "parting shot" both literally and figuratively on this issue. End of File.

Regards and happy hunting your animals as you see fit,
Tom

tom wrote:

quote:

Bobby: I noticed I still had your postings blocked when I looked at this post so as to avoid arguing with you and reckoned you to be one of the lambasters. Sorry if I was slightly off target on that one. I didn't feel like wading back through that forum of last fall one more time just like I don't pick at scabs. I've been on a bit of an internet holiday because I had other things to do besides stare at a monitor too many hours of the day. Consider that an apology.

--
Apology accepted...

quote:

--
Apology accepted...

Would you concede my druthers to snap-shoot one handed at running pigs at ten to fifteen an acceptable way to hunt if I can keep them in 3-4" at 25 and under? Not saying you should do it or advocating it for anyone, but I don't find myself unethical in doing so. The 30-30 and .223 AckImp barrels are scoped and used in an entirely different fashion in the field.

Cheers,
Tom

tom wrote:

quote:

Would you concede my druthers to snap-shoot one handed at running pigs at ten to fifteen an acceptable way to hunt if I can keep them in 3-4" at 25 and under?

If that's what you feel you should be doing, then I guess it's your decision -- and not for me to judge. (I never questioned your mode of hunting but simply wanted to know why you were practicing in that fashion. Now I know... )

I hunt hogs quite a bit and have 4 walls of my gun room full of "hog" pictures, even though I stopped putting them up there a couple years ago. And while I have had a few close encounters, most of the hogs I bag are taken at ranges outside of 50 yards -- and quite often, 150-200 yards is the norm.

Then again, I often hunt where there are openings and clear cuts and steer clear of the impenetrable brush that hogs are often found in.

quote:

Under those circumstances, absolutely. (I never questioned your mode of hunting but simply wanted to know why you were practicing in that fashion. Now I know... )

...

Then again, I often hunt where there are openings and clear cuts and steer clear of the impenetrable brush that hogs are often found in.

Keep in mind I'm the nutjob guy fashioning a .375H&H Encore so I can walk in the tall grass looking for a leopard instead of sitting around in a blind waiting for one to come to bait...Makes it more interesting if I might get maimed or killed. Gave up racing cars and drinking, gotta get some adrenaline somewhere sometimes...