Does anybody have a 358. Norma Magnum chambered in an Encore or Competiter? I have a
358.Winchester in a 14" Competiter that I was considering rechambering to 358. Norma. What
velocities could I expect from a 250gr. bullet? I would of course add a muzzle brake. The 358
Norma is much the same as a 338 Winchester necked up to 35 cal. Thanks for any help.

check your e-mail

Personally,
I would prefer a center-grip design with an action design that would handle the upper end of the 358 Norma Mag. when loading. I am convinced that the cannon breech, falling block, and bolt actions will handle this specific case (and ones like it) better than a break-open action design when being pushed at the upper end. If run of the mill loads are used it comes down to preference over actions, cost, etc.
I have never owned a Competitor, but one day I will have one. As far as I know, the trigger on the current Competitors are really good. Accuracy and ease unloading I am unsure. Gonhuntin and one or two others on this forum have Competitors. They will be better at answering the other questions.
xphunter

Pioneer Outfitters,

That is a hell of a round but I would say flat out NOT to chamber it in the Encore handgun. From the experiences I have had with the Encore, stick with case heads the size of the '06 if your looking at pressures in the 65,000 psi range.

Also the belt is just a bother in the Encore.

In the Competitor, it would be a different animal indeed. It would handle the full potential of the round.

If I may make a comment on your case of choice though. This is kind of a technical response so bare with me please.

The 358 Norma is a relatively long case at just over 2.5". A loaded round would have an oal in the neighborhood of 3.3" or so.

Take your barrel lenght and subtract 3.3" from it. I assume that you will have a 15" pipe on this handgun. This give us 11.7" of bullet travel down the barrel from ignition to exiting the muzzle.

Now lets take a case such as the WSM case, neck it to .358" and see how this measures up. Necked to that diameter, the case length will be about 2.075" or to make things simple, about a half inch shorter then the Norma case. Seat the bullet out about the same as the Norma case and you have an oal of about 2.8".

This is again about 1/2" shorter then the Norma round and give 12.2" of bullet travel in the barrel.

The period of time that pressure acts on a bullet base is what increases velocity. If the pressures are equal, the bullet from the WSM round take longer to travel the barrel then the same bullet driven by the same pressure out of the Norma case.

Now we know that the WSM case will very nearly equal a standard belted magnum round in performance, some say they will beat them(I do not believe this).

Given the very close performance level of each case, I would suspect that because the WSM has more usible barrel length, it will at least match the Norma case in velocity.

So now you ask, how cares, I like the Norma, well lets look at the pros and cons here.

First off, the Belted Magnum case is a pain, nothing serious but totally unneeded with a couple drawbacks for the non reloader.

Second, Even though Norma brass is top notch in quality, it is very expensive compared to WSM brass, which with the correct tools and a couple hours at the bench can equal the Norma quality easily.

Third, Norma brass is very soft, even softer then Rem brass. Winchester brass on the other had will handle hotter loads longer then the Norma brass because it is not nearly as soft.

As for velocity of either the 358 Norma or 35 WSM, I do not know.

I can tell you that my 338 WSM out of my 15" XP-100 produces 2950 fps with a 180gr Ballistic Tip and 2775 fps with a 200 gr Ballisitic Tip or Partition.

Given the larger diameter of the 358 I would suspect that one could use a bit faster powder and more of it to produce at least as much velocity with same bullet weights and it should do a bit better.

I would bet that one of these 35's would hit over 2800 fps with a 200 gr bullet and 2600 fps with a 250 gr bullet sould be within reason, especially with the shorter 35 WSM.

Either way, it would be a great hammer out of a handgun, I would just go with the WSM case if it were me, just to many advantages compared to the Norma.

Good Shooting!!

50

Last time I checked (last year), the Competitor could not be chambered to the WSM cartridge because the WSM is too fat for the Competitor action. At that time, the guys at Competitor said they were working on a new/modified action that could use the WSM size case.....

I have a 358 Norma mag It is Fine in the Encore.
I hope you are up for some SERIOUS recoil.
The 250 grn bullets with 4064 show about 2400 fps.
It is not a max load but I think any more powder is just more Kick.
I had Vanhorn do mine. He warned me about its BITE! I did not listen.....Man this thing will hurt your hands.
It is Very accurate for about three shots..then the problem is the recoil just gets to me.
I Like mine But then it is Just for Hunting
it is NOT a fun bench gun in any way. I know every one will think its is not so bad...BUT It IS too me.
It is a 16" barrel

Fireball

[ 02-07-2003, 06:06: Message edited by: Fireball ]

They chamber the 350 Competitor in the 350 rem mag and so you could just by a new barrel in that or have the 358 punched out to 350 rem mag. That sould give you at least 100 to 150 fps increase. I have the 358 win in a lone eagle and get 2450 with 180 ssp and 2375 with 200 sp using H322 48gr with no presure signs and good groups. I just got through getting an email from the competitor folks and they said they are not going to chamber any wsm at this time also. I hope to take a 510 striker in 300wsm and rebarrel it to the 338wsm in the near future. olefish

Thanks for the responce guys. Yes, I already checked on the WSM case and it is to large in
diameter for the Competiter action, to bad. Thanks Fireball, That is the velocity I was wanting
with a 250 gr. bullet. Is the 16" barrel with a muzzle brake,and if so, what is the length of the
brake itself? GonHuntin. Yes, I might be interested in doing that. Did you want the dies also, as
I would have no use for them. It is a accurate barrel. I like my Competitors. I have had them
since the late 80's before they had the adjustable trigger. They replaced my old grip with a new adjustable one, free of charge a couple years ago. They do seem to be slow at filling orders though. I will get back to you in a day or so GonHuntin. Thanks again.

Yes, I would probably want the dies......send me an e-mail when you decide what you want to do.

A few quick points.

When rechambering the Encore barrels, ALWAYS measure the existing screw hole depths over the chamber. Rechambering to a larger round will sometimes result in a barrel "mag-na-ported" on the wrong end. Ie, the screw holes may be too deep and enlarging the chamber will cut into the bottom of the screw hole or make it so thin that pressure will cause the web between chamber and screw hole to bulge into the hole. Now, if you like sexy cartridges, ones with pairs of little mammary glands running lengthwise with the case, this is fine.

In regard to Norma brass, it historically has had a reputation for being soft, but when I met Terry Paul, the Norma importer back in the early 90s, Terry said the Norma brass had been hardened substantially.... whether that has changed or not, I do not know.

The notion of staying with a smaller diameter chamber is very well founded. Take a look at the old .35 Brown Whelen, not too different from the old .35 Gibbs.... of course J.D. Jones reinvented the concept with his .30/06 JDJ type cartridges.

The Brown Whelen has the shoulder blown forward, leaving a shorter neck, but also greater powder capacity than a .35 Whelen Imp. Ballistics between it and the Norma come close, close enough, I would go with the Brown Whelen in the break open gun.

In a fixed barrel arrangement like a Ruger No. 1, I would give more thought to the Norma round. But in the Encore, I would feel better about the Brown Whelen..... based on .30/06 brass, of course, though it can be done with .270 or .280 brass to get a longer body still or a longer neck, whichever one wanted.

Dies for the Brown Whelen might cost a few bucks more, but definitely when rechambering an existing factory Encore barrel, I would have more confidence in the Brown Whelen.

Data is in Ackley's books, and you may find it elsewhere also. Ackley shows it pushing a 250 gr. bullet 2700 fps and the .358 Norma working REALLY hard to get another 100 fps with only one load shown breaking 2800 fps.

Stick with the smaller diameter round.

Also, if you go larger than the H&H headsize as with the WSM, at the same pressure, you put more force out the back of the barrel onto the breechface and will probably have to back off some in order to keep it functioning reliably. Ie, the Encore simply is not a bolt gun, so don't expect it to perform like one flawlessly. From what I see, it won't, so I don't go there.

Mike

No brake guys. Kicks real Bad
Most told me the velocity would not be there...Well it is ENOUGH in a handgun.
Terribly accurate.....Terribly do to the pain envolved!
Fireball