Loading for my Encore 22-250..55 gr vmax w 38 gr 414. I want to see at what depth the bullet hits the lands..what is the easiest way to measure this?

Hello Ridgerunnr,

Here's the cheap and easy way.... Take a fired case, and dent the center of the neck just enough to hold a bullet (don't tell my dentist, but I use my teeth). Hand-seat a bullet "long", and chamber it. Extract the case/bullet and carefully measure OAL with calipers, be careful that you don't seat the bullet farther down with the calipers. Repeat, as necessary, to make sure that you have a "good" number, and it will also give you confidence that you are doing everything right.

When you set up your seating die, use the exact same bullet so that slight differences in bullet tips will not "poison" your results.

If you have any question or problems, bring 'em on.

Best regards,

Bill

More precise way to do it is to use my Headspace Indicator to first measure how far a sized case sticks out of the barrel, then with a bullet seated out as fas as possible, drop the round in the chamber. Measure how much the case heads sticks out of the chamber. Subtract this difference from the overall length of the loaded round.

Ie., use the chamber as your guage.

Another way to proceed is to start with the bullet seated way out, measure the case head protrusion, and seat the bullet deeper just a little at a time, trying it in the chamber and measuring with the headspace indicator until you get the same protrusion as with an empty sized case. Seating the bullet deeper in very, very small increments as you near the original case head protrusion will let you get it down to the last thous. Once the protrusion is back to original, measure the overall length of the loaded round.

One advantage to this latter approach is that you are referencing off the bullet-to-rifling contact and do not have to be concerned about differences in point form/overall bullet length from bullet to
bullet.

A visit to an avid TC shooter's home at the coast last weekend brought a lot of warm fuzzy feelings.... one of the best of which was in regard to the Bellm Headspace Indicator on his loading bench and his comment about having to go through all his size dies to correct their adjustment for each of his barrels. The Headspace Indicator reveals all!

Here is the url and info about using the indicator.

Bellm Headspace Indicator
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?category_id=38

Mike

mranch, I see you are lurking here. Care to comment on your experiences with the Headspace Indicator?

Mike

PS... mranch, I thought maybe you would be signing on as Paradise Ranch by now.

I finally got back to my desk.

Paradise Ranch has a nice ring to it!!

You know, saying the Headspace Indicator reveals all, Sums it up completely! I don't know how I got by without it all these years. I thought I was doing really well with my size die adjustments and bullet seating. Well like Mike said, I had to readjust ALL of my dies. Approximately 8 sets that I use most often. And some were so far off I hate to even say how many Thousandths!!
To get your cases sized exactly, and Bullets seated where you want them, this Headspace Indicator is a MUST HAVE tool on your reloading bench.
I'll be heading out to Paradise Ranch in about 2 hours!!
Now if I could just get this dang cast off my leg and get out and do some shooting!!!!

Bob

You can take a dremel tool to a resized case as pictured. Seat long and chamber the round with out closing your action as Mike indicates. Continue to seat deeper until the case rim extends from your barrel = to your barrle to frame gap.

Guys,

There is an even simpler way to determine the maximum overall length of a load and you don't have to make up any dummies or ruin any cases.

Take a cleaning rod with a flat tip. Insert it in the muzzle and push it back until it touches the breech-face. Place a piece of masking tape on the rod, half inside the muzzle and half out. With a sharp pocket knife flat against the muzzle, make a cut mark on the masking tape. Swipe a magic marker over the cut and while it is still wet wipe it off with your finger. It will leave a nice fine dark mark at the distance from the muzzle to the breech-face. Now drop a bullet into the throat and hold it in place against the rifling with a pencil or whatever, and repeat the knife mark routine. With the needle points of your calipers, measure the distance between the two marks.

Next make up your first load with THAT bullet seated to the overall length as just determined and now measure the overall length using a Comparator. That then is your maximum overall length (including Comparator) for that brand and style bullet and it includes any extra headspace. By using a comparator you get by any inperfections in the nose of the bullet and measure to a much more regular position on the ogive.

You can measure it to a thousandth, it is accurate, repeatable, cheap and takes the place of a Stony Point OAL device.

Don Shearer

I had the same question regarding the NIB 7mm TCU barrel that I recently acquired. With 140 grain REmington projectiles, it seemed like there wasn't much of the slug left in the case by the time it was touching the rifling. A tip from this forum (sorry, can't remember exactly who) suggested that they had used the guideline of leaving at least one of the slugs width (.284, in my case) inside the case. i.e., seat them no less deep than .284. I have yet to try out my loaded rounds, but the contributor that offered this said that his experience had shown good results with this. I load .223 for my Remington 700 VS and my rounds are significantly beyond the OAL found in my loading manuals, although I never measued how much length of the slug was left in the case. It's a solid sub-MOA rifle with rounds loaded as such. FWIW.

Don, what "Comparator" are you using?

If it is what I think you are referring to, the point of contact of the bullet in the comparator while close will not duplicate the actual shape and dimensions in the throat, which will also vary with use over time as the throat wears.

Of course, periodic measurements will also track the erosion and growth of the throat in diameter and length using any of the methods being offered.

Mike

And, Bob, yes, that is Paradise Ranch where you live! Gotta be good for the soul.

Watching the elk on the way to and from work has to make going to work more pleasant, too.

What did you say? 4 weeks down, and 2 to go before the walking cast comes off? Got enough ammo loaded?


Mike

Mike,

My Comparator doesn't have a brand name stamped on it, but I got it from Sinclair. It is that hexagonal one with a different sized hole in each face - from .224 to .308 bullets.

You are right, it doesn't duplicate the point of contact the bullet will have with the lands, and I don't think that was intended, as the point of contact on each bullet is a little farther forward then where the bullet contacts the lands. Rather it does contact the bullet at a very repeatable location on the ogive. From this it will give you a good reference point and a repeateble overal length from one bullet to the next. But it is necessary to derive an overal length measurement for each style and weight bullet.

Don Shearer

The method i use is REAL simple!

1) Load ALL bullets REALLY long.
2) Place cartridge in the chamber
3) Place gun on bench, barrel and butt resting on bench top and hold gun up
4) Using rawhide mallet, RAP firmly on scope turret housing till you hear the barrel lock close
5) Shoot

This will assure that all rounds will have the same OAL.

OOOOPPPPSSSSS, almost forgot....that is for break open guns.

For BOLT GUNS, use a liberal application of the mallet to the bolt handle.

For FALLING BLOCK, after cartridge is placed in chamber, slam breech against bench till seated, Then rap lever sharply against bench till closed.



EDIT: These methods should only be used by qualified professionals!!

[ 04-17-2003, 07:31: Message edited by: MSSmagnum ]

HEY MSSMAGNUM !!!!

This does work well, but I will help with one step. Forget the mallet.. hold the grip of your TC in both hands and slam the end of the barrel down on the edge of your bench, this won't mark up your scope.

Some might see the above methods as crude. The best way is to take the barrel off the frame. Then starting with the extra long rounds, insert them into the chamber and rap sharply with a hammer.

MSSMAGNUM your killing me. Jules your bad

Mike,

I hadn't thought of using the headspace gage that way, but sure - why not - good idea. But with the K-Hornet, I've put over 3000 rounds through it so far and the point of contact for the bullets on the rifling has moved forward only 0.012". Of course with such a diminutive case that will hold only 12 grains of 2400, it can't wear very fast. Good idea though and I'll also use it similarly on the other chambers.

Don Shearer

Don,

Yep, even the lowly K-Hornet will put wear in the throat, albeit slowly. And as the wear progresses, it also alters the shape of the surface on the top of the lands where the bullet actually makes contact, making the angle more gentle or less abrupt.

Glad to see you have noted and quantified the change in effective throat length, but I would not expect less of you.

After you use the Headspace Indicator just once, you will see how quick, easy, and accurate it really is! The only down side is that you must remove the barrel from the frame to use it due to interference from the extractor, of course.

I have looked at a number of the various approaches such as the comparator you mentioned, and the Stoney Point apparatus leaves me "bilious." It is just a long way around getting to the point you are trying to reach. I have also made comparators for individuals on request in conjunction with chambering barrels for them. Using the same throat reamer for both the chamber and the comparator does help, some, but as noted above, the shape of the leade changes with wear making the comparator valid for only a short time.

Point is, in the process of cutting chambers, I have to take measurements constantly, and I sure never had or used anything but the barrel itself and a depth micrometer in conjunction with the ammo or cases being used (or on much less frequent occasions an actual headspace guage).

Any individual can do the same thing, but the problems have always been: 1) understanding the concepts, 2) having and using the "spatial" abilities to understand the task at hand, 3) the cost of a decent depth micrometer (usually over $100), and 4) the awkwardness of using a depth mike accurately.

Use of a depth mike is a balancing act on the one hand and very subject to "feel" to get an accurate measurement on the other. In short, it is a time consuming pain, even after 24 years and not something for everyone.

But using the barrel itself as the "guage" and taking quick, accurate measurements with the Headspace Indicator cuts to the chase and gives exactly what is needed for the specific application with no loss of accuracy transferring from one object to the next. It tells you precisely what is going on with the exact components being used.

For less than $30 it performs a multitude of tasks and does it better than any gimick being sold anywhere that I am aware of. It gets even cheaper if one already has a common 1" dial indicator or gets in on a sale priced indicator. The base I sell is $17.95, and dial indicators sometimes sell for $8.50 or less.

For details and instructions on the Headspace Indicator:

Bellm Headspace Indicator
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?category_id=38

All the best...

Mike