For a handgun hunter, Berger's Very Low Drag Match Bullets hold some significant advantages as hunting bullets. We handgun hunters generally have less velocity to work with than rifle hunters do, so it pays big time to conserve all the velocity that we can from the get go. The extremely high ballistic coefficients of Berger's VDLs does just that for us, and the match grade accuracy the VDLs provide doesn't hurt either.

In the past match bullets have gotten a bad reputation when used as hunting bullets, and in some cases deservedly so. The long fine point on the VDLs allows these bullets to penetrate at least 2 inches before they begin to open. Once they begin to open, the 100 percent pure lead core and jacket design gives violent controlled expansion that usually gives nearly to complete penetration over a very wide velocity range. These VdLs have been taking all manor of big game now for better than a year with 100 percent positive feed back from the people using them.

I believe the bullets of interest to handgun hunters begin with the 6.5 130 GR Match VDL, BC=0.595 for 1 in 10 twist barrels, and the 6.5 140 GR Match VDL, with a BC=0.640 for 1 in 9 twist or faster barrels.

The 7mm VDLs begin at 168 and 180 grains, so I think they would be too heavy and slow for most handgun hunters to use. BCs for those bullets run 0.643 and 0.684 respectively, with 1 in 10 and 1 in 9" twists or faster being recommended.

In 30 caliber the VDLs begin at 155 grains and follow through with the 168, 175, 185, 190 and the 210 grain VDLs. BCs run 0.472 for 1 in 14 or faster twist barrels for the 155 Gr, 0.495 for 1 in 13" or faster twists for the 168 grain VDL, 0.528 BC for the 175 VDL, also in a 13 or faster twist. The 185 and 190 VDLs require a 1 in 12" or faster twist and BCs run 0.556 and 0.574 for those bullets. The 210 VDL requires a 1 in 11" twist or faster and has a BC of 0.631, and may not be of much use in even large capacity handgun cases.

For 25 caliber and 6mm, the bullets offered are 115 grain weights and 105 and 115 grain VDLs in 6mm. BCs are high but again the weights are heavy. The 115 GR 257 VDL's BC is 0.523 and requires a 1 in 10" twist or faster to stabilize. The 6mm VDL's BCs run 0.556 for the 105 GR and 0.595 for the 115 GR VDL. Twist requirements run 1 in 8" or faster for the lighter bullet and 1 in 7" or faster for the 115 Gr VDL, which is too fast for most handguns in my view.

With such high BCs and such great down range performance on game at common handgun velocities, the VDLs ought to be a valuable addition to any handguner's possible bullet choices. Prices begin at 21.9 for the 6mms and top out at 31.99 for 100 to a box for the 210 GR 30 caliber Berger VDLs...Rusty.

Some of best bang/flop videos I've ever seen are posted on Berger's web site. Worth a look.

I'm planning to load up some VLD bullets in my .30-30AI to try in Missouri's October urban counties white tail cull hunt. I'll let you know what happens, assuming I can get a shot in that brush.

The bang-flops are the result of the placement of the shot and not the VLD bullet. High shoulder shots do that -- and most expanding bullets will accomplish the same if they are capable of penetrating the short distance necessary to accomplish what you see on the videos: impact that imparts shock to the spine, even if the bullet doesn't directly contact it.

As to specific bullets that I can comment on: The 6.5 130 VLD -- very low drag -- Match bullet from Berger performs no differently than the Nosler 140 grain CC bullet, and the trajectory difference is rather nil. Even at pistol velocities, neither is a top choice for medium game, though both have sufficient mass to cleanly kill game given ribcage shots into the lungs.

Aside from the accuracy, the reason hunters are having success with the Bergers is the long, skinny bullets -- in weights that are approaching heavy-for-caliber status -- possess ample sectional density/mass to penetrate enough to get the job done on thin-skinned game.

The A-Max, regarded by many as too fragile for deer-sized game, is actually a tougher bullet than the Berger.

If I should need the performance afforded by either the Berger or the Nosler CC on game, I will choose the Nosler simply because they cause 1/2 of what the Bergers run.

All the Noslers I have bought come 50/box. The Bergers are 100/box, which should even the price up some. Compared to the Barns TSX, the Bergers are down right cheap. I had outstanding performance from a 140 grain Hornady SST in a 6.5 handgun on a better than 200 pound buck last season with a high shoulder shot. No bone was hit. It was a bang flop that was so fast that I thought I had missed because there was still a buck in front of me when I recovered from recoil. It turned out to be a different deer I hadn't seen. I could have put my fist in the exit wound. The range was about 75 yards. I don't think there is anything marginal about 140s on deer or anything else out of a 6.5 handgun in the 260 Remington and higher case velocity levels.

As soon as I get enough empty one gallon milk jugs, I will do a water test to compare penetration and expansion between the VDL 140, SST 140 and the 140 grain Nosler Partition. I have already run the tests on the other bullets...Rusty

Rusty-

The Nosler CCs come 100 to the box, or you can buy the 250-count package. I've been buying 6.5/140 Nosler 2nds for 15.95 per 100 and firsts for around $19.00 per 100. They costs quite a bit less than the Bergers. The Barnes have zero appeal to me in any single shot pistol that I've ever owned.

I never said the 140s aren't a worthwhile projectile in the larger-capacity 6.5 pistols. Heck, I've used 6.5s for many years now and have worked with just about every imaginable combination. But they are NOT the best for the 6.5 JDJ, etc. -- unless we graduate to a rifle-length barrel where the velocity bump makes a significant difference in the terminal performance. With the 140s, you need 2400 fps or a tad more to get the game-dropping performance we should all strive for. You can do that in a 6.5x.308 but not in a 6.5 JDJ. (My 26" 6.5 Bullberry IMP is getting 2500 fps with both the Sierra 140 grain GMKing and the Hornady A-Max, the latter of which makes a pretty decent deer/pronghorn bullet at that velocity level. The Sierra is much stouter and what I use on hogs)

As to a high shoulder shot, you can't have one without hitting bone -- at least not the type of shot that I call a "high shoulder shot." There's bone there that must be penetrated. Granted, it's thin at that point, but there's definitely bone to be encountered if the bullet hits where intended.

Don't put much faith in water jug testing. It's one of the poorest mediums to use and gives little actual representation of what you can expect when the bullet hits flesh and bone.

Bobby,

I don't use water testing to try to approximate what bullets do on flesh and bone. I use it as an easy repeatable medium for bullet comparisons to see how the different bullets perform against each other. It works well for that and water seems to be a harder medium than flesh and bone, more like all large bones.

I didn't realize you were talking about factory seconds and blemished bullets coming from Nosler. Which I don't feel there is anything wrong with at all but are hardly comparable to first run top grade match bullets. Sure you have to pay more for match bullets but they are also held to a higher quality control and consistency level. Whether the added cost is worth it to you (which apparently it isn't and that's your choice) is a personal matter each of us has to decide for ourselves.

For sure these VDLs are going to be better in the Encore and XP type chamberings I would think. I don't know what the bottom of the expansion window is with the VDLs. After I do a water test, we should know a little more of what to expect, at least in comparison to the 140 GR 6.5 Partition and SST. WE will see...Rusty.

Rusty-

First off, these bullets are VLDs, not VDLs. (Sorry, I finally had to point that out.)

And the cost of Nosler FIRSTS is around 19.00 per hundred. That was clearly stated in my post. The 2nds are 15.95/100. In terms of teminal performance, there is zero difference in the bullets -- and they are the same on paper as well regardless if they are first or seconds.

The Noslers are in no way inferior to the Bergers. These are high quality MATCH GRADE projectiles. Spend more if you want, but what are you getting for that extra cost???

I have tested all of the bullets you mention. There is really nothing new to be learned with any of them. Both the Nosler CCs and the VLDs will expand down to around 1700 fps. The Ballistic Tips will do so down to around 1600. The SST gets iffy -- if not erratic -- below 1900 fps. The Partition needs 1850-1900 fps at impact to ensure proper terminal performance.

Bobby,

Thanks for pointing out my mistake; I didn't even realize that I had transposed the letters. I didn't mean to imply that Nosler bullets are in any way inferior to anything else. I have used the 100 and 120 grain BT in my 6.5 JDJ, as well as the 125 Partition. I have also used Nosler's 180 and 200 grain BTs in my 338 JDJ No 2, and the 210 and 250 grain partitions also. I really like and enjoy using Nosler bullets.

The only Sierras I have used have been the 85 grain hollow point in the 6.5 JDJ and the 160 grain 6.5 RN as a case forming load for my 6.5 Mini-Dreadnaught.

The 6.5 140 SST is my first Hornady bullet experience and so far it has been a positive one. I know I have a lot to learn, that's why I visit these forums to read what people like you have to say. I don't always agree with everything that I read, so I test things to see what I can learn for myself. Thanks for your help; it's appreciated.

Well I have already spent the money on the Berger VLDs, so I am going to have to play with them a bit to see how they do for me. In the total scheme of things, the cost of bullets isn't that big a factor in the total cost of a hunt. I haven't done all the testing that you have done, and it is nice of you to try to save me all my time and trouble, but I guess I just have to learn my own lessons for myself the hard way. But thanks anyway again...Rusty.

Rusty-Experience is the best teacher, so I applaud your efforts to try the various bullets and rate them for yourself.

Yes, the Bergers are good, accurate bullets with high BCs. But I have not been overly-impressed with their on-game performance. The heavy-for-caliber Bergers, due simply to their weight-to-bore size-ratio and the laws of physics, possess ample mass to do the job on thin-skinned game. But so can a host of other projectiles...

I meant to mention something reagrding your 140 grain SST experience: if the impact velocity is kept between 2000 fps and 24/2500 fps, they do extremely well on deer-sized game. I've even taken hogs with this bullet, though it failed to exit on even some 100-pounders. Nonetheless, they were dead on the spot.

From your .260, one of THE best bullets (aside from the 120 grain BT) is the Sierra 140 grain GK. From deer to large hogs, it performs exceedingly well with predicatable performance in both tissue destruction and penetration.

Bobby,

The 160 Gr Sierra Pro-Hunter was very impressive in my water test. Retained weight was 80 percent. The mushroom measured .522 x .671 and the bullet penetrated into the 6th one gallon milk jug filled with water.

The 140 Gr Nosler Partiton retained 65 percent of its weigh and penetrated just as deeply. It completely lose its front core and the jacket expansion measured .540 x .502.

The Hornady 140 SST retained 61 percent of its weight and penetrated into the 5th jug, measured .534 x .464 and was completely intact.

My 6.5 MD JDJ barrel is throated for the 140 and longer bullets. The accuracy just isn't there with the 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip and the 125 grain Nosler Partition, and the velocity is nearly as good as with the 120-125 grain bullets using VV's N560 powder out of my 13 inch barrel with the 140s. I got the best velocities and accuracy with the 120 BT with H4350 in my barrel.

I believe the Sierra Game King is a softer bullet than their Pro-Hunter is. I may have to give those two bullets a try also. Thanks for the information and input; its much appreciated...Rusty.

Here is some information from someone who actually has some experience in shooting game with one size of Berger's Very Low Drag Bullets out of a handgun:

sscoyote
Long Range Handgunning Moderator


Posted July 23, 2007 05:13 PM
I decided to test the 115 Berger last year out of my 243 WSSM Striker, and it performed well on 2 doe antelope @ 330, and 420 last season. There are so many issues that affect the terminal ballistics of a bullet, that honestly, i've just decided to continue using them until i get a failure. There's such a huge pile of evidence that supports their use these days for game, and they offer quite a benefit in terms of wind drift, impact velocity, and energy grain for grain...seems that it warrants a look see at least.


Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Hook:
Bobby,
I believe the Sierra Game King is a softer bullet than their Pro-Hunter is. I may have to give those two bullets a try also. Thanks for the information and input; its much appreciated...Rusty.

I have used 180 grain SGK's on deer and elk with my old 7.82 Patriot XP--With great results

Rusty-

The GameKing is not a softer bullet, per se, than the ProHunter. But being a boat-tailed design, it has more of a propensity to shed its core under hard impact than the ProHunter.

Also, say you start both a 150 grain PH and GK in .30 caliber at 2800 fps. At extended range, the PH may retain slightly more weight. But that is not due to being a stouter bullet. That is simply due to the GK impacting at slightly higher velocity due to its more aerodynamic shape. Granted, the difference is small and insignificant -- and both perform exceedingly well on thin-skinned game when launched at reasonable velocities.

I finally saved up enough 1 gallon milk jugs to run some water/expansion tests on 6.5 140 Gr. Berger VLD bullets, and the results were mixed in my view.

Now I have to qualify this by saying that this is a very tough on bullets test. A 140 Gr. Nosler Partition lost all of its front core in this test, retaining 65 percent of its weight none the less, and penetrating into the 6th jug.

A 140 Gr. Hornady SST held together just fine, but it only penetrated into the 5th water filled jug. It retained 61 percent of its weight.

A 160 Gr. Sierra Pro Hunter RN bullet also penetrated into the 6th water filled jug, retaining 80 percent of its weight.

The Very Low Drag Berger 6.5 140s cores penetrated into the 4th jug. But there wasn't enough of the bullets left to even bother with trying to weigh them. Pieces of core made it into the fourth jug. None of the jacket shreds did. Expansion with the VDLs was the most impressive of the lot as for how much water splash there was and how high it went in the air. Expect some significant meat damage with these bullets I would think.

As stated before this was a tough test, conducted at 25 yards with a MV of better than 2,500 fps. Shooting water filled jugs is more like shooting into solid bone than it is like shooting into soft flesh and bone. But I don't know that I would care to use the 6.5 140 Grain Berger VLDs on anything bigger than deer in my gun. As velocity would drop off with greater range, penetration would improve markedly. But I didn't get big enough pieces to make measuring a mushroom possible. The other bullets all expanded to more than half an inch in diameter in similar tests.

Water jugs and game aren't the same thing, and I expect these bullets to do better on game than they did in my test. I am going to hunt with them this year. But there is no telling if and when I will be able to report back with on game performance with the Berger VLD bullets...Rusty.

Rusty-Thanks for posting the results. That's about what I would have expected.

I actually got to shoot a coyote just a little earlier this evening. No, it wasn't exactly hunting. I happened to look out the window and saw a coyote headed across the field. I grabbed my 26" 6.5 Bullberry Imp Contender (MGM barrel), stepped outside, took a rest off the deck and dropped him just before he got into the thick vegetation.

The load I used was the 140 grain VLD at 2553 fps MV. The range was just under 200 yards.

The coyote dropped on the spot without so much as a twitch. The bullet caught him just behind the shoulder. On the opposite side, there was one primary exit which was about the size of a quarter. There were at least a dozen or so small exits across the ribcage as if from fragments.

It was getting dark and I was running out of light, so I didn't check out as much as I would have liked. But I quickly opened him up and saw that most of the heart and lungs were jellied (destroyed may be a better description) and did see a number of very small jacket fragments throughout the chest cavity.

I am guessing the coyote was 32-34 pounds. I did not get to weigh him as everything was rushed due to the onset of darkness.

I also took a large boar coon about a week ago, again with the same Berger bullet load. The range was app. 110 yards. The bullet hit on the point of the shoulder and exited mid-body. The exit was the size of a large grapefruit.

Bobby,

My results seemed to mirror yours. In 6.5, the VLD bullets seem to be more of a varmint bullet than a big game bullet...Rusty.

Yes, you are right. In 6.5mm, they are very soft. They'd undoubtedly kill a deer with placement through the thin ribcage an into the lungs as there's ample mass to achieve enough penetration -- even if the bullet comes completely unglued.

But for me, I don't consider it a viable deer bullet, even at the lower velocities of the single shot pistols. There are just too many better bullets out there for that task.

Plus, the Bergers are hard to find. When I decided to load up a few of the 140s, I noticed I only had about 20 left and wanted to pick up another box. Everywhere that I normally order from was out of stock. I finally found a place in San Antonio (3 1/2 hour round trip) that had a box. They agreed to hold them for me, and I went get 'em. It was their last box of these, too.

Rusty-

While I prefer a different medium for checking a bullet's expansion characteristics, your testing did pique my curiosity. I wanted to shoot both the Hornady 140 grain A-Max and the Sierra 140 grain GameKing spitzer -- bullets I use almost exclusively in the 26" 6.5mm Bullberry Improved -- into water as you did with some other bullets. I wanted to see how they stacked up against those in your testing.

Anyway, here's the result. I used Ozarka water bottles (I think they are 3 liter, IIRC). The jacket of the Hornady bullet stopped in the 4th while the core made it into the 5th jug. The Sierra was recovered in the 6th jug & actually indented the opposite side of the 6th jug, though it did not make it through.

Bobby,

Here is a picture of my first set of water tests and an unfired bullet beside the expanded ones for comparison.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8217678@N08/510905984/

I agree with you that water is not the best medium to evaluate bullet performance on game but, it does give an easy and cheap way to evaluate the expansion and penetration capabilities on one bullet compared to another or others.

Thanks for posting your pictures and doing your research. More knowledge is always a good thing. The bullets you are using sure look like they will get the job done. No pictures of the Berger VLDs were included because I didn't feel there was enough left to make for a meaningful photo compared to the other bullets shot...Rusty.