I think the world needs more barrel makers, if for no other reason than to bring barrel prices down and hopefully bring quality standards up.

Custom TC barrels started out back in the 70s in little hole in the wall shops around the country. Frank Kendrick, Al Beckstead, Jim Ingram are ones that come to mind. Given what they had to work with, they put out some pretty good barrels back then. Times have changed, and so has the technology of nearly 30 years ago, but the basics are still within reach of more shops today with a little help along the way.

Today we have several larger shops that have evolved, as well as TC's bid to keep some of the custom business via Fox Ridge Outfitters.

You might want to read my post under the subject of "Poll......" There is a lot going on that just does not seem right to me, one of which is the spiralling costs of custom barrels. $500 barrels are already a reality, and the base price of barrels may soon reach the $500 mark.

This is BULL. Something is wrong with this picture.

We have one camp that grovels at the feet of the bigger shops and the TC factory on the one hand, then there are the others.

There is no reason why small shops should not be serving TC shooters more than they are.

One thought I have for a future project is to sell fixtures to other shops or individuals so they can make their own custom TC barrels. I have one fixture that locates all of the holes in the lug, the forend dovetails, and all the rear and front sight holes. It is not set up for cutting the locking bolt slot, but I see no reason why it couldn't be.

After I get back into making barrels in a few weeks, I may even sell finished, ready to weld Contender barrel lugs to anyone that wants to buy them. I have to first prove the dimensions and all locations of pins, hinge pin hole, locking bolt slot height, etc. That done, I would then make lugs available.

Instead of guarding the information and trying to hog business, how about opening it up for many others to engage in.

Face it, garages and basements come a LOT cheaper than commercial property and all the taxes, costs of meeting regulations, payroll expenses, etc., etc. that go into the prices you pay for barrels from larger concerns.

Plus, there is something to be said for the pride and dedication of the craftsman himself doing the work rather than one of his hourly minions. If you wonder where warped barrels, off-center chambers, out of square & burred crowns, etc. come from, just remember it is rarely the principal or principals in the business who do much of the work, and in some instances, none of the machine work at all.

On the other hand, I have seen really outstanding work come from garages and basements, and I am pretty disgusted with much of what comes from the larger money sink holes.

Just a thought, but dozens of custom barrel cottage industries across the country could be a reality. Interested?

THE Heretic

Mike I think this great. When my wife get out of school I would like to finish my machining class
so I can start making T/C barrels. With people like you out there to help I think it would work. All I can say is thanks god for people like you

Paul, save your money.

Do you think I had even one day of machine shop training? Did P.O. Ackley? Did Fred Smith? Did a host of others?

Most of what you need to know you can pick up on your own or by tapping others for tips along the way. If you can afford the time and costs of a trade school, this is great. It won't hurt you, but I can show you in one day most of what you need to get going. No, I won't make you a full fledged machinist. But if you have the aptitude for it, you will get a running start.

Fred Smith is sharp and picked up a lot just hanging around my shop a little and talking. Most of what I learned early on I learned by simply talking to P.O. Ackley. He NEVER SHOWED ME ONE SINGLE THING.

If you do go to a trade school, I would suggest leaning strongly toward CNC machining. There is a lot of profit potential making parts and accessories on CNC machines. I doubt I will ever get into CNC, but given another lifetime to live, I would sure like to.

Thanks for the kind words.

Mike

Mike and others,
I am playing around with some barrel projects right now as some know. I read all the information I can get my hands on with regard to chamber pressures and such, because this is the arena where all the action take place. It is great that you have all the articles posted on your website. I have completed my first test barrel and the next run of barrels will be done by the end of Sept. They will include .45 Colt, .17HMR match, 6mm TCU, and a 30 40 Krag. All 14" long except for the .45 colt, it is 17". The next project will be a simple 30 cal Encore setup. Douglas barrels were used. Mike, you should get a chance to see the .17 when my friend gets it. I changed a couple of features in the lug and also chamber the barrels differently than the conventional method.

The whole reason for this post is to show that the size of a shop is irrelevent. Quality can be produced at a reasonable rate. Understanding a piece of equipments purpose and utilizing it for it's advantages are key. And finally, a healthy respect for safety along with a good imagination should keep you on the right path.

A lot can be done by a person working by themselves and it does keep the overhead down.

Just trying to help,

After you know the technical names of all the parts and tools you have to work with and how to use them, isn't the rest like 95% common sence and 5% skill?

Mike, You think you'll be bringing out that Dan Wesson interchangeable barrel system you used to have? That would be great for changing barrels by using the same lug and scope, and no need to weld the lug on. The original Competitor single shot, also had the same set up, with the tensioned threaded barrel, not the present Competitor with the breech loader. What you think? Dennis

Bellm, i am begining to like you!!

Mike when you get into making barrels I sure want one. I have been sorry that I didn't get some of your work when you were here in SW Mo. Going to the Gun shows in this area without your booth isn't the same now.

Mike B., do you think the market demand is there? Hobbies are fun, but they get old fast. Could someone with good skills and high personal accountability make a living at it? just curious. mike

I would be more interested in seeing YOU doing something totaly new and exciting like making some damn Encore barrels ..... But alas I am probably going to have to buy a contender or God forbid a G2 frame before I can utilize some of your barrel/chamber handiwork HUH ?
Dave

This is a shotgun response to most of the above posts, plus some brainstorming.

It is not how much you make, but what you do with what you make.

I generated a lot of money in Salt Lake City, but the overhead ate my lunch. Plus, I am too much "hands on" and not enough of a manager to do the work and do justice to managing more than just me.

Can you make a living doing this? Certainly, just don't get in over your head. Start simple and get your feet on the ground before trying to fly with the eagles.

Find your niche, and fill it. There are lots of things to do to create, as my friend Stan says, cash streams. They all add up.

I would like to incorporate my abilities into a manufacturing operation, but that is beyond what I can put together on my own. Nor do I want to attempt it at this time. Later maybe. Barrels can be made to compete head to head with TC for price, but made much more accurate by proper machining techniques.

As Mike S indicated, there is room for improvement on existing designs. Plus, I think the world needs a better frame design that would accept all the millions of Contender barrels floating around.

What do you think of a barrel makers guild for TC barrels where the member has to abide by certain quality standards to have the guild's approval? Hint, the existing shops would not qualify if I wrote the standards.

I have long thought that a networked system of cottage industries working as a coop would work much better than a single manufacturing facility, but have never tried to do it "full bore." Visualize, Joe Schmuck with a lathe in his BASEMENT (you know, where basement bombers work) doing mostly barrel turning. He works all night, sleeps all day, or works over the weekends and takes off during the week when he feels like it, just so long as the work he is committed to is done and delivered to the next guy timely.

Gordon Lipshitz has a mill in his BASEMENT and just makes lugs. He might even be the one selling them to the rest of the world, or for sale through the central coop/sales office.

Sue Z. Homemaker with hubby Shootsalot has a drill press in her basement and uses her light touch just drilling and tapping barrels.

Paul Paraplegic has a little bench mill with a tall stool he can strap himself to while he mills out extractors and other small parts.

Costs per part are fixed, payroll/employee concerns minimized, overhead cut to a minimum, and each person is accountable to make good parts or eat 'em. Each is an independent contractor with the self-esteem and responsibilities that go along with it.

To various extents, this could be applied.

Or, going back to the guild idea, each shop did its own thing so long as it met certain standards.

Chew on that.

Mike

Mike Thank One day I will take you up on some of this. I was thinking of going for CNC. I'm Looking around for something now so I can start
playing with it.

No get rich quick scheme...just a good honest living, I like that. It sounds like a great possibiliy. Most of my questions are about insurance and liability, in this day and age that scares me. I don't trust the courts and I don't want someone else to own what I've worked for. I was an automotive machinist for 8 years so I'm familiar with that kind of work. You guys think you could use an east coast connection? Will give this some seriouse thought. mvm

Mike-

I have been this close (Hold up your calipers set to 0.005" and look for light) to drawing, measuring and programming a lug so I can put together a bunch of custom barrels that I want without the wait, and knowing I have the total QC control...
My buddy has a very capable 2.5 axis machine that can run them.
The only thing stopping me are some basics like what material and heat treat process required, if any...
If you make a detailed print after you test your setups, I would appreciate a copy.
It's been a while since we talked, but you helped a lot talking me through my mauser project. Thanks again.
I still have not finished fire forming the 222mag imp brass either.
If you get to making contender lugs, put me down for at least 5 or 6 right away.
Where do I get small parts like extractors and locking lugs?
Will Tim Pancurek(sp?) sell me these?

Mike,

Remember our phone conversation the other day regarding my Encore barrel. As a customer, I'd be happy as a lark if someone offered a decent barrel for under $250. If someone could get it under Fox Ridge's price or even the same as T/C's factory price, they'd have the market cornered.

It just so happens that Lothar Walther's machine shop is in my home town. I know somebody who knows somebody that is a machinist there. I'd love for them to do something. Only trouble is, I'd like to be part of it.

Randall,

Go for it. Sounds like you're the closest one to gettin' it done.

[ 09-05-2002, 23:42: Message edited by: Alpo ]

Randall, (I am doing this in two parts. Window came up telling me it is too long.)

I blued yesterday and was online billing via Pay Pal, but could not resist my dose of what's going on here.

All of the barrels I made previously had the lugs welded on prior to drilling the hinge pin hole and cutting the locking bolt slot/spring hole and retaining pin hole.

The lugs I will be using for this batch of barrels have the hole and slot cut already, but I am hearing that welding sucks the barrels down into the lug about .006." I don't know if this is fact or fantasy as yet.... soon though.

Point is that since I am trying a different method, I do not know with certainty that my dimensions are right. I may have to modify them to work with the different process.

Previously, I had someone else doing the lug mill work. But now, I also have a fixture for drilling the holes in the lug after welding in case I go back to that method, which in principle I still think is the best way to go since everything is referenced off of the barrel itself.

Part of the reason for considering the fully machined lugs is the access I now have to a centerless grinder which will keep finished barrel tolerances to the tenths and maintain parallelism, neither of which can be maintained doing the usual lathe turning and belt sander/polishing processes. This is the reason I chose years ago to put the hinge pin hole and locking bolt slot in after the welding.

So as far as handing you proven dimensions, I need to do some experimenting first.

If the barrels do suck down, no problem for me since I made a radius cutter years ago for milling down the welds when we were doing a double pass/full fill weld. I can zip down the sides of the barrel where it seats in the frame and correct for the .006" or whatever it may turn out to be.

As for material, I chose aircraft grade 4130 annealed, did all the exterior work, extractor slot and retaining pin hole, radius for the barrel to seat in, and then heat treated to Rc35. This is amply hard, but still readily machinable when cutting the hinge pin hole and locking bolt slot, etc. You lose a few points of hardness in the welding process, but down below the locking bolt slot, there is little hardness loss due to the distance from the weld.

I chose 4130 for its hardenability but more so for the lower carbon content, which gives a more ductile weld.

We (I farmed out the welding) chose to pre-heat the barrel and lug clamped together to 475 degrees with a torch & Tempil Lac stick, welded, then packed the barrels in silicon batt for a slow cool down.

Judging from what Virgin Valley, Bullberry, and others do, this is perhaps an overkill, but at the time I first started making barrels, I had little to go on. Time has proven that less entailed welding is sufficient. However, other shops have lost barrels due to brittle welds. I have never lost a one. Period. So perhaps the extra effort is well worthwhile and results in a better product, which is the approach I prefer.

In time when I have things settled regarding the best process and have dimensions narrowed down better, I intend to sell lugs to the public if someone else doesn't do it first. And if you or someone else supplies them to the public, I am a public sort of person myself and would consider buying them from you.

My angle is that it is better for whomever is making the lugs I use if there they can make a greater quantity and make if more worth their while. I alone will not consume that many lugs per month, but I'll bet there are a lot of folks like you who would get in on the act once the obstacle of lugs was laid to rest.

Like I have said before, I think barrels are getting out of hand price-wise. This leaves out a lot of people who love to shoot TCs but are not "well heeled" or WILLING to spend $4-500 for a barrel. Too many things are becoming a rich man's game. Like barrel makers, we need more TC shooters, not fewer squeezed out by the cost of barrels. TC's started out and became popular in part due to the economics of interchangeable barrels. Now barrels are selling for as much or more than complete guns sold for not long ago.

There are a lot of talented gunsmiths around the country, as well as a lot of butchers, that would do a good job of making completed barrels once the hassle of the lug was taken care of. If you can make your contribution to the effort, we all would be glad to have you.

For small parts, TC will sell small quantities, but they, Ken French, cut me off of larger orders years ago, probably because they do not like the fact that I tell it like it is, and it is often not very complimentary to TC at all. Fact is, I am told that "Bellm" is a dirty word around the TC factory. Imagine that. Ask me if I care.

Let me know where you go from here. I am sure there are others interested also.

Mike

The forum system changed its mind and accepted the whole message.... so there is only one part.

Mike

I hate to bring this up again, but would this open up the option of using some of the bench rest type barrels that can be had for pennys on the dollar of regular cost?
The reason I ask is that some of these barrels are of real high quality and from reputable barrel makers. From some of the ones I have picked up you should be able to get maybe two TC barrels out of one rifle barrel?
I am just curious on this aspect of possible different rates of twist. How about one of Mikes 222 mag AI barrels that would shoot a 77-80 grain bullet at some of Don Bowers ranges, or even farther?
There is a lot to over come in the above mentioned topics, ideas, thoughts to get to square one. But this is an interesting thread.
Jeff

I've gotta say - I'm loving this thread. The idea of getting barrels down in price to a 2 for 1 deal or less compared to existing custom prices just thrills me!

jsh,
If a standard 10 1/2 inch XP-100 can hit dogs out to 500 yards, a custom barrel with the correct twist in 222 Rem Mag. AI could definitely be a contender past 500 yards.
xphunter

Guys
I have to tell you, I like the things you are talking about. It gives me hope that there will be good quality barrels at an affordable price in the near future. There are other Calibers I'd love to try out & the cost is what stops me from following through on them. Keep on going ! I like what I hear.
Rich Jake

I like HHI 812's suggestion (above). A switch barrel within a switch barrel. A barrel that simply screws into an existing "mount" with lug makes a lot of sense to me. It might even be possible to use a cam system such as Leupold uses in their quick release scope bases. And look how easy it is to change barrels on a Ruger 10/22 rifle. How about thinking outside of the box and getting away from the Striker/XP-100/TC systems and coming up with some ideas which focus on barrels rather than actions? I've heard that the Mau-Mau gunsmiths used a piece of iron water pipe, stuck a shotgun shell in, and, without an action or breech plug, hammered the primer with a sharp rock until it went off (there are stories of burst pipes laying next to pools of blood, too).

Mike has talked about this switch barrel withing a barrel on other forums. He calls it stubbing, I believe. Mike you want to enlighten them?

BTW, I've been lurking here a few days and decided to join in. I know Mike from the TC List, GBs (AKA the big pond LOL) and from a 308 Bellm he did for me. Mike's good people.