I think I'm going to re-barrel it to the 270WSM.

Your gonna love that one! XP's are just like patatoe chips... can't stop at one!

Look forward to hearing all the good stuff once you get it built. Who is going to build it for you?

LOL...xphunter I have not got that far yet. I don't want a heavy kicker just something to reach close to or alittle over 400 yards. I have thought about a 7mm-08 Ackley Imp. but, not sure at this time. As the WSM case has me thinking real hard. Do you have to open up the ejection port at all when going to these size case's ?

T/C Nut,

From the picture of your XP, I assume it is a 223 rem, 7mm BR or 35 rem with the sharp barrel contour. These are great handguns to start with. I have a 7mm BR that I purchased as my second XP that I was going to rebarrel to 284 Win.

Problem was I shot the thing and fell in love with the little BR case. Still, there is alot more performance to be had with the XP-100.

I have a custom 338 WSM built on what used to be a 221 FB XP-100 action. The gunsmith that built this handgun did a fine job machining the barrel and such but did not think about several things such as ejecting loaded rounds.

The short little action will easily eject spent cases but it had to have the bolt removed with a live round.

When I build XP's this is a concern I look into. The 7mm BR has a longer bolt throw then the 221 but will probably still need the bolt stop machined back a touch depending on the throat used in your barrel.

I do not see much sence seating the bullets out as far as possible in a WSM chambered XP-100. There is alot of case capacity anyway and seating bullets to max lengths only causes ejection problems with live rounds.

I am in the process of building another XP-100 for myself. I will be using another 221 FB action and will be chambering it for the 6.5mm WSM. I will be using a fast twist Lilja barrel to shoot the great long range 140 gr A-Max.

The 270 WSM is a good choice, especially if you will be loading yourself. 400 yards is a long shot on game with any handgun, perfectly possible if the hunter is up to it and the handgun/optics/load combo have the accuracy and performance level to to the job.

For such ranges I would recommend bullets such as the 140 gr Ballsitic Tip and Accubond(especially if you are hunting deer with it).

For varmint or paper punching any of the 270 bullets will work fine but as the range increases, remember you will get better performance from high B.C. bullets then with light weight fast moving bullets. This is always the case once ranges reach 400 yards and beyond.

The 7mm-08 AI is a good round but not really enough for what you are wanting out of this handgun. In all honesty, the AI rounds using the 243/308 family of brass have the smallest performance gains of all the AI rounds out there simply because they are simply do not have much body taper to start with and only increasing the shoulder angle does not do alot for case capacity increases.

The WSM case is head and shoulders above the 7mm-08 AI no matter how you look at it.

If this will be used as mainly a long range handgun, I would take a hard look at either the 284 or 7mm WSM over the 270 WSM.

SImply because they are only .007" larger in bullet diameter but offer a pile of long range match quality hunting and target bullets. THe 162 gr A-Max or 160 gr Accubond bullets in 7mm would allow for 500 yard deer hunting and targeting far past that.

Unfortunately the 270 family of bullets is a little weak for long range shooting.

If your looking for a smith to build your handgun, let me know, I can get you my information and prices for such a job.

Good Looking XP!

50

I would concur with choosing the 7mmWSM over the 270 for the reason 50 mentioned. I have an external bolt stop/bolt release mounted on my XP's that is further back so I can eject loaded rounds of 284 Win with 140 NBT's seated to where the base of the bullet meets the neck/shoulder juncture. Done this way, you will never have a problem even with a 284 case, which, by the way is longer than my Patriot case.

BTW
Don't be surprised if 50 builds my next rig.

XP,

I will be working on my bedding system this weekend hopefully, unless I get some more work in. That is I will be turning my drafts into reality. My initial prototypes will be made out of heat treated aluminum for easy of machining purposes.

More then likely this metal will be plenty sturdy for this purpose but will test it for set back.

If I need to switch to 4130 or 4140 Chrome-moly steel I will.

Have you tested the 162 gr 7mm A-Max at extended range. If so how far will the 284 keep it super sonic?

Thanks for the information. In my mind the 7mm is a bit better then the 6.5 for extreme range shooting but they also come with increases recoil and loss of velocity to some degree.

I would be hard pressed to pick the either the 155 gr Sierra MK or the 162 gr Hornady 7mm A-Max over the other for strictly long range shooting.

What is your opinion on these two using same case capacity, say WSM/Partiot volume?

Good Shooting!!!

50

I would choose the 7mm over the 6.5 LR shooting / hunting. Especially for LR hunting. The 162 A-Max .625 BC has a better BC than the 155 SMK does. The 142 SMK has a better BC than the 155 .570 does. Berger's 140 VLD has a BC of .627 Since you will get more velocity or equal (larger bore)and less pressure (less bullet bearing surface)in the 7 than you would the 6.5 comparing those two bullets I would say 7mm. Personally, I think the WSM or Lazz case is more suited to the 7mm over the 6.5 (Thinking in terms of specialty handgun length barrels, not rifles). Since I don't know of anyone with a 6.5 WSM in a specialty handgun, I can't prove it, but it my theory (Just an opinion).
Berger's 168 grain 7mm bullet has a BC .648 and their 180 grainer has a BC of .698.

...and that 162 A-Max would deliver considerably more energy downrange. If I knew then what i know now (at least a little bit more now than then, i hope), i'd have opted for the .284 Win. over the 6.5-284 for LR applications. Man would it be fun to blast that 180 Berger out of a 17" WSM barrel with one of those 20X LER conversions at some such 1000 yd. target. Man-- how come somebody hasn't done that yet, ehh???

SS,

You want it, I will build it!!!

50

SS,
There you go bud, send him your 6.5-284 XP and have him turn into a 7WSM set-up with the right twist for the 162 A-Max. I think I feel the Patriot trembling at the thought of it.

U know i just might take u up on that one 50. U're definitely gettin' my next pistol project-- whatever that may be. OK, saw some load data that ran the 162 @ 3000 out of a factory WSM barrel, so figuring about 40 fps/inch loss--that'd bring me to around 2700 or so for a 17". Ran it across Exbal-- and here's what i got @ the elk hunt area std. conditions;



A) Patriot 180gr. @ 2785 mv

B) 7WSM 162 @ 2700mv



vel/energy/10mph wind



400-- A)= 2279/2075/8"-- B)= 2297/1898/7"



500-- A)= 2162/1867/13-- B)= 2203/1745/11



600-- A)= 2048/1676/19-- B)= 2110/1602/15



Looks like it's a tossup(assuming i get 2700 from my new rig-- that is).

I expected the 7 WSM to edge out the Patriot with the 162's high BC. Did you check to see if it would be an outright tie with non-VLD bullets?
The next big question is, how many elk have been taken with a 162 A-Max at the velocities you would push through a specialty handgun and at the potential impact velocities? Has 50 used or know of guys who use the 162 for elk? I would also check with LR forum. Sounds like deer is a given though.

"Looks like it's a tossup(assuming i get 2700 from my new rig-- that is)."
Looks like an order going to 50 to me!

Wait a minute! I thought we were helping T/C Nut pick a cartridge. Now look what we have gone and done

50,
Send Steve the data you sent me on the level of smithing you do.

SS,

Let me know whenever your ready to do the project.

About your comparison, also factor in that the 162 will out penetrate the 180 if they are of same bullet construction. It as a better S.D., .285 vs .271. Not a big difference but still another factory to look at.

Also, I would be suprised if you lost 40 fps until you got under 20" of barrel. From what I have seen with this size cases, youwill loose around 25 fps from 26 to around 22" of barrel length, then it will slowly start to climb from there to the shorter length but I would have to say 2700 fps should be a realistic velocity goal.

Hell I'm looking to get +2900 fps with my 6.5 WSM with the 140 gr A-Max. We will see if I am predicting accurately or not!

Good Shooting!!!

50

Just did a comparison with the 160 Nosler Accubond (equal elk data comparison) @ 600 yards Patriot 19.4 drift with 10 mph and 7 WSM 19.0. Bullet drop @ same distance the Patriot had -99.6 and the WSM -104.8
Good thing about this is if for some reason you can't get one bullet to shoot good you still have other options and will still have the performance you are looking for.

Actually, i think this discussion is exactly what TC would be interested in-- a long-range bullet that delivers good terminal ballistics to 400+ yds. That is the real question here-- what is the highest BC bullet that'll deliver the best terminal ballistics on game up to elk size to the longest range possible?

SS & XP,

I would have to say that from the customers I have, if your were knowingly hunting for trophy quality(size) mature bull elk, I would not use the 162 gr A-Max.

Here are my reasonings:

It is a bullet designed for match grade accuraacy, good thing, the polymer tip also increases expansion, good thing on deer size game but for mature bull elk at any range probably not a good idea.

For cows, calves and the biggest mulies and whitetails around, even caribou, the 162 would be hard to beat.

This bullet is just a little lightly constructed for my liking on game that possibly could top out near 1000 lbs and have the will to live that a mature bull elk does.

That said, I would choose one of three bullets to use on mature elk at ranges out to 400 yards.

My first choice would be the new 160 gr Accubond. Does not have quite the B.C. of the A-Max but it is still quite respectible and bullet drop is always simple to figure. There will be a little more wind drift then the A-Max but on game performance would not even be comparible as the Accubond would far out penetrate the A-MAx as well as still expand reliably at extended ranges, especially out of a 17" 7 WSM XP-100.

There is another couple options as well. The 175 gr Nosler partition is a great long range bullet. Penetration will not be a problem and it will expand easily at velocities over 2000 fps. Its B.C. is in the .520 range which is a bit less then the Accubond still but on game performance is again increased over that bullet as long as proper velocity is maintained.

THe last option I would look at would be the Sierra 175 gr Spitzer Boattail. This bullet has a very respectable B.C. in the .550 range. In fact as the bullet drops below 2000 fps its B.C. raises to .560. This is right there in the ball park with the Accubond. The higher S.D. will provide plenty of penetration on chest shots and it will expand similiar to the Partition at handgun velocities.

Of the three, I would trust a shoulder bone shot to the Partition and even then if the range was pushing 400 yards I would try to avoid the shoulder knuckle. With a shot behind the shoulders, all three bullets woudl perform very well.

Those would be my choices for hunting elk with a 7mm WSM out of an XP-100 in this order:

1) 160 gr Accubond
2) 175 gr Partition
3) 175 gr Sierra SPBT

Good SHooting!!!

50

Keep them coming guy's I like reading this stuff ! I feel that with the game I will be hunting the most elk and bear in mind. I'm think very heavly on the 338WSM over the 300WSM. The only thing that's holding me back on the 338WSM is if I ever forget or loss my ammo I'm screwed ! I hunt in two to three states a year and it could happen. I thought about going with a 338 Win Mag but, I think the WSM would be more efficient. I would like to go with at least a 17" tube maybe even an 18". Hmmmmmmmm ?

I haven't looked much at the 7mm lineup regarding bullets-- these days all u hear is 6.5-6.5-6.5, but u sure got me thinking 50.



.338 WSM ehh TC-- i know somebody here will tell u a thing or 2 about that one.

T/C,

If I were to build my own 338 caliber XP-100 right now since I have gotten into the business of building custom firearms just like these we are speaking of. I would build an XP exactly like I had built before.

The only differences would be as follows:

My XP is barreled with a Stainless, FLuted Lilja barrel with a muzzle diameter of a solid one inch. I ordered the barrel this way to reduce some of the recoil by adding weight to the handgun and it surely adds weight.

Problem is that it also adds momentum to the handgun wonce it is under recoil and this creates more problems as far as the stock holding up.

If I were to build one now, I would slim the barrel to .650"-.700" at the muzzle just like the 6.5mm Lilja blank I just ordered. This would provide and extremely stiff and accurate barrel while still being relatively lightwieght.

One could still flute the .700" if you wanted to but a barrel that short really is plenty stiff for extreme accuracy work, Flutes do look pretty cool though .

Another thing I would chance is that I wanted my handgun designed for long range deer hunting with the occasional possibility for elk hunting. Because of this I ordered the barrel with a 1-12" twist to stabilize bullets up to 225 gr Flat base bullets. My primary bullets would be the 180 and 200 gr Ballistic Tips and the 210 gr Partition for elk.

If I were building the handgun strictly for elk and bear hunting, I would certainly go with the 1-10" twist and start with bullets in the 210 gr partition range and better yet the 225 gr partition and Accubond. I would not be worried at all to hammer any elk alive with one of these 225 gr bullets.

For bear, if your hunting our blackies, anything from a 200 gr Ballistic Tip on up would work great. If you were hunting grizzlies and browns up north, the 225 gr and 250 gr paritions would be my choice with the 250's being used for the big browns.

You will find that the 338 WSM will deliever basically 338-06 rifle ballistics out fo a 15" barrel. Out of a 17" barrel you will get around 65-80 fps more velocity. I would not recommend anything over 17" for a hunting XP-100 handgun. And even 17" is getting pretty long, especially if you add a brake to the handgun which with a 338 WSM I would HIGHLY recommend one. THe Holland is about the most compact of the highly effective muzzle brakes and it will still add 1 1/4" to the barrel length.

In a bore the size of the 338, an extra 1.5" to 2" of barrel will not add alot to the velocity compared to smaller bored rounds.

I freely admit the smaller caliber WSM rounds will shoot flatter then the 338 WSM but none will deliever the knockdown power of the 338. Its visual effect on game when it lands is very impressive even out to +300 yards which is as far as I have taken this round on big game.

I have shot several big deer with this handgun and two of those have been dropped like they were electrocuted. This is not a big deal until you realize that on both of those shots, around 200 yards out, the only bone that was hit was a rib bone. Still the power of the 338 was authoritative to say the least.

Please do not expect elk to respond this way. Often times a bull elk will take a 300 gr Partition from a 375 H&H and show little effect from the impact. Still for heavy game, my money will be on my 338 WSM. In fact I may even build a new one with a lighter sporter barrel and 1-10" twist just for heavy game hunting.

Either that or I will build my 375 WSM using the 260 gr Accubond's, thats another topic though!!

Good Shooting!!!

50

I like your way of thinking 50-- especially the pistol ergonomics. The next pistol i do will be yours for sure.

SS,

I look forward to it, I will let you and Xp know how my 6.5mm WSM turns out when it gets finished. I do like the idea of the 375 WSM as well in the XP-100. Maybe that will be my next project.

Will let you know onthe results and thanks for the interest.

50

Guys-- just saw some interesting info. on longrangehunting.com-- turns out Bob Cauterucio's got a 7mm 176gr. with a confirmed BC of .750. That is absolutely amazing. I'd give something to see that bullet shot out of a WSM @ 1000 or farther from a spec. pistol.

50, is there alot of problems with the stocks holding up ? With calibers like the 338WM or WSM's ? I realy wanted something that was not a heavy kicker that I could shoot without a muzzle brake. Thats why I was thinking of the 270WSM. Maybe I should be looking for a cartridge that would be used for 300 yards or less on elk and bear. I have also heard of throat burn out problems with the WSM cases. Hmmmm maybe I should make a new list of non-magnum calibers.

Give me some calibers to think about guys....I need all the help I can get.

T/C,

What most shooters do not realize about a firearm equiped with a muzzle break is that to the rifle, there is zero difference in the pounding that the stock takes, here is why.

Recoil starts the moment the bullet starts moving down the bore. The instance the bullet is released by the bore, the barreled action has received all the energy it will from the firing of the round, which is recoil energy to us. So when that bullet is released by the muzzle, the barreled action has all the recoil energy it will have and in turn has transfered all that energy to the stock via the recoil lug.

Want a brake does is work against the handguns momentum which carries it back into the shooter. We all know how a brake works so I will not go into that.

Long story short, a muzzle brake will not greatly reduce the chance of stock failure. The stock still receives the same amount of recoil energy as it would without a brake. All the brake does is limits the momentum of the handgun which is a large part of what we perceive as recoil.

That said, yes, an XP-100 stock has a chance of failing when chambered for one of these rounds if not properly set up for the job. The recoil lug baring surface is very small compared to a rifle and needs to be built up and reinforced to survive such chamberings.

I am playing with a couple different bedding block designs of my own that should solve any stock failure problems with any cartridge but they are still in the prototype stage as of yet.

There is nothing wrong with the smaller cailber WSM rounds in teh 270/7mm/308 class, but they still require the stock to be fitted and bedded properly. Once you step up over the 308 Winchester family of cases, bedding of the XP-100 becomes critial.

Good Shooting!!

50

50,

Have you ever thought about rechambering your 338 WSM into the 8.59 Galaxy?

It would put your XP at the top of the food chain in both energy, wind drift & trajectory I would imagine. the 215 SGK would be a good bullet for this besides some you are already using.

XP,

I had Virgin Valley build me a 15" Encore barrel using a stainless Lilja blank in 7.21 Tomahawk.

The only complaint I have about the barrel is the this size case head creates far to much bolt trust for the Encore and it actually stretched my frame to the point where the cases wer stretching so severly that after two firings I was getting case head seperation.

The barrel shoots into the sub 1/2 moa range but with the cost of Lazzeroni brass, this was not an option so the barrel sits in the safe.

I know that on an XP action this would not be a problem at all, the strength is more then enough for these rounds, still while i was having problems with my Encore I contacted Lazzeroni and actually recieved a few e-mails directly from him.

He basically stated that only a fool would chamber the Encore in one of his rounds and that he was surprised the handgun did not get totally destroyed.

I responded by telling him that I got the idea from him and he almost blew up at me saying he would never promote anything that stupid.

I referred him to his trophy gallery on his own web sight and see that there were two hunters using the Encore handgun in his short magnums. One was the short 338 version and the other was the 7.21 Tomahawk.

The last response I got from him was that I saw wrong and that those pictures were not on the sight ever. Sure enough when I looked at his site again they had been removed.

Integrity must be his middle name. I got nothing against the guy personally but I will not add to his retirement by using one of his rounds, ever.

I have never been real impressed by the quality of his brass anyway. the virgin 7.21 brass I have has case body walls that vary over 0.020" from one side to the other, very poor quality.

To be fair, I have seen and measured some of his 7.82 Warbird and Patriot brass that was much better quality, the Tomahawk brass flat out is pathetic.

Call me childish, but if the guy isn't personable enough to talk civilly to his customers, I do not have the time or need to waste on him.

TO be honest, The 338 WSM has all the punch I need, but a fast twist 338 WSM using the 300 gr Sierra VLD would be pretty interesting though!!

Good Shooting!!

50

Good shot of those bullets DMCI-- i think i've already been converted-- that 7mm bore has won me over now i think.

Steve,
I wonder if the 135 & the 156 would work good in the 284?