What do you guys think of a 30 cal on a 223 improved 40% on a thompson contender. I like the whisper but its just 150 fps lower than i wish it would be with 125s. Will this accomplics what i am looking. 12.5 inch barrel. jcrawley@cox.net

Interesting thought, but what speed are you looking for with the 125's? Danny Campbell at CNC cartidge 'factory' loads the .30 Bellm 125's to 2300fps (and he's run them across a chrono to verify it). You could probably do a little better handloading. I'm wondering if the 223 "Improved" case would hold more powder without pressure signs. Might be fun to play with.
Bill

John, There wouldn't be much of a shoulder left by the time ya seated a 30 cal. bullet in a 223 case so I don't really think the imp. version will make a difference.
Why not just do a 30-30 or 30-30AI. Seems to me that these were made for them shorter barrels and I think would be your best bet in a contender. I had a 12.5" 30-30 and it was very accurate with the 125s and could push them to 2300fps with no problem. Just a thought.

dholepuncher: I have a "14" inch Bullberry custom barrel chambered in a 7.62x39 (.308) bore 1:10 twist. Velocities are similiar to a standard 30-30. Brass and dies are inexpensive and it is very accurate.

I would think a 12 inch barrel would still work great and you would get the velocity you desire.

Otherwise what about a 30 Herrett?

It would be like a .30 TCU. You will end up with a real small shoulder but no worse than the whisper. 125 grain would be excellent in this as well as .30-30 150 grain bullets. The big reason for .300 whisper is to fit in ar-15 mags with heavy bullets and the TC does not have that problem. It would be a bit easier that forming .30 Herret as no heavy trimming and you would most likey get your velocity increase too. The most costly part, after the barrel, would be dies. Check out if they are available from some one first.

John
If you want to do a 30/223 you can get dies at CH4D for about $69. This was a project that I had considered more than once. LOL! From the research that I did I found out the at one time it was experimented quite a bit in the silhouette shooting crowd. There were references to things happening with that cartridge & being very tempermental. After that I never went much further than thinking about it. I would assume that it is very do able but you probably should keep it's past in mind if you persue it. Good luck if you go ahead & try it. Please post your results either way if you do it. I am interested in the results.

John,
I'm pretty sure that would be called a 30 apache and it was used a bit back in the 80s in sillywets. Good thing about the round is you can run the pressures pretty high with that skinny 223 case, I don't know if the shoulder issue is critical or not, I think not if you reload it right.
You might be better off going to a 30 herrett or 30-30 AI, truthfully the AI is one hot one...but you know that, you sold me mine!

regards,
Gene

John, one of the fellows I shoot silhouttes with had a design pretty much what you are talking about. He had an XP chambered for it. It shot fairly well, but not as good as he had planned. I do not remember what bullet weights or what kind of velocity he was getting. The one thing that stuck in my mind was, that it was very sensitive to any temperature changes and charge weight changes. This was a little before any of the "extreme" type powders were available or even heard of.
I remember a couple of times he opened the bolt and the primer fell out. This guy wasn't a throw it together and lets see if it works type either. He is real particular about his shooting. So with that being said I feel like it was more of a cartridge issue.
just my .02
Jeff

Now don't get me wrong John. I didn't say the 30x223 wasn't worth doing. I said the 40 degree shoulder wouldn't be worth doing on a 223 case. I mean what's the sence in it if ya can't get the extra case capacity.

I think the main ? would be: Can you use a whisper on a 223 case, giving you extra case length and still use pistol powder like H110, instead of a rifle powder. It's easy to neck up a 223 case to 30 caliber useing the whisper dies. It'll look like a longer whisper. But, can a powder like H110 still be used to create more speed. Is this your question John?

I'll post a pic of a 180 gr Whisper on a 221 fireball case, and the same on a 223 case. Both dummies of course, but you can see there is room (alot) for more H110. The ? is, can it handle the pressures of H110, or similar pistol powder. It could be a "cool" round, sorta' like a whisper on "steroids".

Good one Jeff. I don't shoot a whisper so I can't give any input on it. But after lookin at the 2 cases I see what ya mean. I know the 223 case runs at high pressure but it's a different ballgame when going from a .224 55gr bullet to a much bigger .308 and 2 to 3 times the weight.

Here's a pic of what I mean:

I got a 30/223 contender barrel that I do not use. It is made by Ingrham and in excellent condition. If interested you can either email me or post here.

I have never shot it, so I can't answer any questions about the caliber.

David

Thank guys, all have pointed out things i may not have thought of. What i am really trying to get to is around 2200 to 2300 fps without 28 or more grains of powder.

David Thomas i have sent you an email. I am extremely interested in your barrel. thanks John , jcrawley@cox.net

Also i do know this. My barrel with a 125 shoots great , brass is fine with 19 grains of H110 but just as soon as you try 19.3 grains it will blow a case , or primer pocket out, or split a case, can not tolerate much variance(thank goodness for digital scales.) as to the new extreme powders, yes they do make a difference, a big difference because volumes(powder weight included or same as) change with temperature, and the xtreme powder eliminates most of that.

Reading the psoted replies again, Jeffs question nails it.I am looking for just a spicy whisper, done had all the Big bangers and Im leaning towards the smaller efficient ones.The ten inch barreled whsiper will blow thru a deer at 80 yards easily with a 125, but im not too comfortable out to 150 yards and projectiles that would perform properly at those speeds in the whisper are limited as well. If i could get just a little more out of the cartridge, it would be all I want, a cartridge that is effective to almost 200 yards without fear of non expansion in the leads. If the 223 would do what I want ,I could shoot a 130 ssp hornady at whitetail out to 200 yards and feel good about knowing it would properly expand on impact, for looking at all the other cartrigdes similiar, It looks like 24 grains of H322 on a 130 Hornady ssp should be close to the recipe for this cartridge, if it is, then i would have the best of both worlds, 30 bore penatration with the recoil of only a TCU cartridge. Thats what I am trying to get to.

I am going thru with this Chambering one way or the other, These dies are easily obtainable, and soon as i get a barrel,Davids or one frm Steve, i will shoot and load it to its maximums and minimums and post all the data for everyone..chronies and all.I will know what this cartridge can do very soon.If it turns out to great you will know it and if it flops you will know it and ill bore it out to 225 casing next. Thanks fellas , John

Dhole,
Have you considered necking a .204 ruger up to 30 cal? That would give you a little more punch. BR case is nice but too much for the Contender I think.

Dholepuncher, email sent.

David

DHP,
If you're only looking for 2200-2300, like I said the .30 Bellm does that and more. It's based on the .444 Marlin brass (see Bellm's site). Not saying don't try the .30-223, heck it looks kinda cool. But so does that short fat .30 B. Good luck on it.
Bill

Here is a thought if you try this, I was thinking powders in this range may work as some of these are loaded in the 222,223,300 Whisper,30 Herrett,30-30. This is only a guess but take a look & see if you agree.

70 1680 (Accurate Arms)
71 N-130 (Vihtavuori)
72 N-200 (Norma)
73 N-133 (Vihtavuori)
74 Brig. 4197 (Scot)
75 IMR-4198 (IMR)
76 AR-2207 (ADI)
77 H-4198 (Hodgdon)
78 2015 (Accurate Arms)
79 Reloader 7 (Alliant)
80 BM-1 (ADI)
81 IMR-3031 (IMR)
82 N-201 (Norma)
83 H-322 (Hodgdon)

This round would be a screamer on 50R brass. An improved profile version would be interesting too. Would give it more shoulder.

If you go with a lengthened whisper, you might be able to get away with just using a 223 die with the neck (top) portion cut off so it will just size the body of the case when needed and use a whisper die for partial body and neck sizing.

Have Fun

We had a fellow on the old TC-List that got one of these in a carbine length barrel from Dave Van Horn. The barrel was too whippy, but the performance was similar to the .30-30 (if I remember correctly). Why don't you pop over to the TC-L and ask Wayne? He'll be happy to share.



If all you want is the velocity goal using pistol powders, go with the .30 Herrett. Barrels are cheap and I like mine.

all of your ideas and information is welcolme. I appreciate it. My main objective is = 30 cal, under 28 grains of powder, 150 to 175 yards of take down power.. hope the 30-223 will do it. I do know the 223 case wont hold anymore than 28 grains of any powder hardly.

I haven't jumped in here, but I think it's about time I did! I've used a few of the TCU based cases while shooting silhouettes. I've used a .223AI for a year now (basically a 22 TCU) as well. You can easily stuff 28gr of powder into an unimproved .223 case...unless you're talking about extruded powder like H4895. I've stuffed 30.5gr of WW785 into an unfireformed 7TCU case with 175gr bullets seated into the lands to fireform so I know the case will hold enough powder (ball powder anyway).

I question your choice of caliber as I think the 6.5 TCU would be the perfect fit for your criteria. I think that either the 6.5 or 7 is a better fit for the case capacity/bullet weight. For example you could pick the 6.5 TCU and use Nosler's 120gr Ballistic Tip which is a proven performer at handgun velocities and you would have yourself a 175 yard deer gun...probably would even work at 200 if you were using a longer barrel (14"+). However it is your perogative to desire a .30 cal and if that is the case I'd go with the good ol' "thuty-thuty" or even .30-30 Improved. Keep in mind how much better a 120gr .264" bullet will retain velocity and resist wind than a 120-130gr .308" bullet.