I just talked to Fox Ridge Outfitters about a 6 TCU barrel. The only twist rate they have is 1 turn in ten inches. I am thinking this is a bit slow. What do the experts say. I am new to contenders. I am planing a 15 inch bull.

Lyle

Lyle,
what bullets do you want to use?

I will most likley shoot 55 to 75s mostly but I would like to be able to shoot 90s or 100s.
Lyle

A true 1-8 twist will stabilize the 105-107 VLD's and even the 115 Tubb bullet. I think the 10 twist will likely stabilize the 90 & 100 grain hunting bullets.
It would be better to hear from someone who has tried it, but you should be fine.
One way to know for sure is to call Rich Macholz at Sierra. He is one of their techs.

I have a 6TCU with a 10 twist and it works great with 70 and 80gr Ballistic Tips. They are long for weight and would equate to about a 90gr cup and draw, lead tip, bullet for length. I think as long as you keep it at 100gr or less you should be just fine.
A 90gr BT would make an excellent deer bullet at reasonable ranges. At pistol velocities it becomes an awesome bullet for deer, good expansion and good penetration.
Get the Hornady dies, my set produces rounds with virtually no neck or bullet runout.
Have fun, it is a great cartridge.
Joe

Thanks a bunch guys!!! I guess I will go ahead and order it.
Lyle

I have a 6mm Shilen 1-10 twist barrel on my Contender that does great with everything from the 58 gr. Vmax up to a 100 gr. Win bulk RN bullet. I doubt it would stabilize anything heavier and most certainly not a VLD.

A 1:10 is THE twist for small-to-medium capacity 6mms since the most useful bullet weight ranges from 55 to 80 grains. At the velocity you'll be operating at, you can stabilize all standard bullets up to 90 grains.

Bobby have you had any experience with the 6mm Hor 80 single shot pistol bullet on game. No Sierra's left and have found several boxes of the Hornady's

I have had both 6mm-223's, and 6mm T/CU's with both 1 in 10" twists and 1 in 12" twists. However the heaviest bullets I used was 85grs., and they shot well in both barrels. The 1 in 12" twist barrel shot the light weights slightly better, but I am sure that small difference could be found from barrel to barrel with the same twist rates.

MY favorite bullet for these cartridges for Deer has been the Speer 80gr. Spitzer.

Larry

Lyle,
I have a lot of respect for the guys who have posted here. I would trust their experience.
Keep us updated on your new project.

Tommy-The only thing I really didn't like about the Hornady 80 grain SSP is that I couldn't get quite the velocity as I did with the Sierra 80 grain SSP. That, coupled with the fact that the Hornady doesn't have quite the same low-velocity threshhold for expansion as does the Sierra, makes one consider limiting the range or shooting for bone with the Hornady, which seems to be of a slightly stouter composition.

In the broad scheme of things, 100-125 fps is not that big of a deal, but when you're dealing with a cartridge that operates on the edge and need those precious few fps for proper bullet performance, it's certainly something to consider. I didn't take anywhere near the # of critters with the Hornady as I have with the sierra, but in all instances, it seemed to do just fine -- again, though, I never stretched the range as I confidently do with the Sierra.

One other thing to consider: the Sierra 80 grain Blitz Varminter performs very similarly to the 80 grain SSP. In my guns, though, the SSP Sierra has always been one of the most accurate bullets. The Varminters have shot well but not to the eye-popping accuracy level as the flat-based Sierra.

Lastly, if you are close enough to the plant, Sierra often has large bins of seconds which they sell by the pound. A friend of mine off this board sent me some in 6 and 7mm a couple years ago, and I couldn't tell any performance difference between these and off-the-shelf boxed bullets. Some had the lead wire running from the tip that I simply flicked off with my fingers, but that's the only negative thing I could say about them. And if I recall, they were quite inexpensive as well.

Bobby I'm dealing with a 22 inch 6mm Bullberry that I have chorno at 3100 with Sierra 80 gr SSPB. Grandson killed two deer last year with the 80 gr Sierra and lost a lot of meat on both. Both were shoulder shots. Thanks for the reply

Tommy, Bobby, last time I was at Sierra the "barrel" was empty . I still have some put back for special occasions. I guess I should go ahead and shoot them so I don't get to attached to them.
Still have "that" XP to Bobby . The throat is starting to get a little on the long side, but still lays them in there like always.
I talked, or I should say I complained the last couple of times I have talked to Carrol. I told him they could at least make a 5K run of them a year. And once again he said the market was just not there for that bullet........... pencil pusher I suspect.
Bobby had sterred me towards the 80 grain speer hot core for the carbine 6v45 Tommy. Shoots almost as good as the Sierra 80SSP. I have not had the chance to use this one on any "edible" type game.
Good seeing both of ya around.
Jeff

Tommy-With the added velocity of the carbine barrel, I would go with the Speer that Jeff mentioned, which is a tad tougher but still expands well down to around 1800 fps. But the Hornady should do quite well also.

I had assumed you were shooting a 14-15" barrel. What were the ranges on the deer your grandson took?

Jeff-Maybe if we all send an e-mail or two we could convince them a run would be in order -- and that they'd definitely sell. I don't know if he's still there, but I did get good responses from Rich Machholz when there was a lot of 7mm, 130s that refused to expand.

I can't understand that Carroll would believe the market is not there. A run of 5K would sell the very same day.....

Rich is a good guy and a friend. But he only has so much influence as a tech. My advice is keep being the squeky wheel and have others chime in.

Bobby, both deer were well over 200 yds. I also have a 14 inch 6mm bullberry that gets 2900 fps with 80 gr Sierra and was thinking about using it again this year. I didn't get a shot last year with the 14 inch barrel.

Tommy-I am surprised that you got excessive bloodshot meat at that range. It could have been the angle, placement, secondary bone fragments -- or a combination thereof. With that being said, I do recall in skinning a couple of coyotes a few years back where I thought the bloodshot meat around the entrance and exit seemed more than the norm. But if I recall, both were taken low on the shoulder (and it's been too long for me to remember how far those particualr coyotes may have been). I just know that back then, I was shooting the XP that Jeff is shooting now, and my do-it-all load was the Sierra 80 grain SSP at around 2740 fps.

But for the most part, that Sierra is so predictable in performance that it is almost boring. You get a good wound channel, plenty of penetration and accuracy that rivals match-grade bullets.

So come on, Sierra, crank it back up for those SSPs!!! I've given every bullet out there a good run-through and still keep coming back to the Sierra for the small-to-medium capacity 6mms. Losing the .30 and 7mm SSPs was not such a big deal as other available bullets do as well or even better than these two. But there is no true replacement for the 6mm.

If you guys will get a ballpark idea of how many bullets in the 6mm 80 grain SSP that we could for sure order form this and other handgun forums, I will see what I can influence.
Nothing may happen, but then again, who knows?
Plus, I need an excuse to talk with Rich anyway and get him caught up since I haven't been to any 1k matches recently.

Good luck Ernie, I would go with around 500 as long as they were priced fairly. That would do me for a while as I have moved back to the 7mm's for jacketed and am leaning towards cast for hunting around home. If I were in more open country, I would tend to lean towards the 6 more. You might have to pack up and camp on Adams front door and protest.

"I can't understand that Carroll would believe the market is not there. A run of 5K would sell the very same day"

I pretty much said the same thing to him. He threw some numbers around like I was not the first to complain. I forget if it was Tommy or Dave I had talked to also, they made a remark somthing to the effect that there were like 20K that had been sitting there for a few years and had not moved. When the announced they were dropping it the orders started coming in and they were gone in a month or so.
Jeff

Try soaking those bloodshot shoulders in COLD salt water. It will pull the blood right out of the meat and you can eat right up to the hole.

If you really want to speed up the process, knead the shoulders in the salt water and you can have them cleaned up in about 20 minutes.

A combination of kneading, changing the salt water out and soaking overnight works great. It doesn't hurt the meat at all. I have been doing this for a couple of years and it is fantastic.
Good hunting.
Joe

Spoke with Rich @ Sierra today:
The 80gr Blitz should be actually a better bullet (A suitable substitute) than the 80 grain SSP. Ogive is the same and has a good boattail on it and has enough jacket on it that it should be a good deer bullet for pistol length 6mm's in the 6mmTCU class cartridge.

Concerning 80 grain SSP's
It would take a special order for the 80 grain SSP's with likely a sizeable deposit to make this happen.

Ernie-I've used the 80 grain BLitz quite a bit, and while it is similar in performance to the 80 grain SSP, it is not the same -- and it does have a couple of drawbacks. First, at close range/high impact velocity situations, the core and jacket do separate. I've never had that happen with the SSP. Secondly, I've gone through a number of small-cap 6mms over the years, and the flat-based 80 grain SSP outshot the boat-tailed Blitz in all of them -- albeit sometimes by a relatively small margin.

SO while it will offer similar performance, it is certainly not better than the old standby 80 grain SSP. It's a decent substitute but certainly not a true replacement.

I basically wrote what Rich said. I would encourage you to call Rich and share with him your experiences between the two bullets.
AS you have probably guessed, I have never used either of these bullets. In fact, I have never used a SSP of any kind.

Ernie-I figured that you were basically quoting Sierra on the 80 grain Blitz conversation. Actually, we (Rich & I) did discuss this a bit, though not at great length. At that time, I was calling (or e-mailing) when I first heard the 7mm, 130 grain SSP was a goner.

At 6mm-.223 or 6 TCU velocity from a 14-15 inch barrel, their performance is pretty much paralleled between 75 and 200 yards. Inside of 75 yards and beyond 200, though, the performance differences become more apparent.

One thing I intended to mention: The most consistent performer OTHER than the 6mm 80 grain SSP is the Speer 80 grain Hot Core. It gives picture-perfect expansion pretty much every time. It just opens slightly slower than the SSP and hence transfers a little less shock value to the thin-skinned game (coyotes and small central TX deer) I pursue most often with the little 6mms.

This may or may not be of help. The Hornady SST is a pretty soft bullet that will hang together well at piostl velocities. Unfortunately the only weight I could find listed in 6MM was the 100 Gr, and that will be a pretty long bullet. If it didn't inpinge on your powder capacity too much, it might work work pretty well asuming it will stabilize in your barrel.

I did some water tests on them in 6.5 and got penetration into the fifth one gallon milk jug filled with water at 25 yards, 61 percent weight retention and expanded to .534 x .464 with the 140 Gr. 6.5 SST. A 140 Gr. Nosler Partition lost the whole front core at the same distance and penitrated just one milk jug deeper with a 65 percent weight retention. Both carried the same powder charge, which produced 2533 with the NP bullet. The SST didn't lose any of its core and it mushromed beautifully. The bottom third of this bullet appears to be really tough, at least at handgun velocities...Rusty.

Correction: The Hornady 6MM SST is a 95 Gr bullet, which I would think would make a better bullet for handguns in every way if it allows enough load density and velocity. It ought to expand and penitrate like crazy if it performs in 6MM anything like it does in the 6.5 MM...Rusty

Rusty Hook-You can't get enough velocity for reliable performance in the 6mm-.223s/6 TCUs with a 95 or 100 grain bullet for hunting applications. Yes, it may expand, but it does so slowly and thus doesn't impart enough shock value from tissue damage to be a good game bullet.

Also, stacks of water jugs aren't at all indicative of on-game performance. They make for interesting visuals, but that's about all.

Bobby, if I remember correctly a year or so ago you were about to start some testing of the 80gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip in 6mm. Did you ever get to that project and or finish it? If so what were the results?

A bit off topic, but I just finished working up a load for a friends 15" Encore in .243. The bullet of choice was the 80gr. Speer Hot Core Spitzer loaded in front of 38.0grs. of H-4895. I was pleased with the accuracy, and this barrel produced an average muzzle velocity of 2920 FPS with this combo. My buddy is hopefully going to get to test this combo out on both Coyotes and Whitetails here in South Dakota this fall.

Thanks

Larry

Larry-Yes, I did. Here's a copy of the post from a while back:

"Well, I did run the 80 grain NBT through the paces a bit but am still not 100% sold on it. The MV from the 15" 6mm-.223 barrel averaged 2705 fps, and accuracy with the H335-based load is superb and consistently in the 0.5 MOA range.

In taking several coyotes, performance has been splendid. Shots ranged from app. 70 yards to app. 230 yards. Field autopsies revealed excellent tissue damage, and bullets exited in each case, including a couple of quartering shots. That's the good news...

But on a couple of 'coon and a few armadillos, I got less than stellar results. On 2 coon (65 and app. 110 yards), I got very little expansion and minimal internal damage on behind-the-shoulder shots. However, to be fair, I must add that these bullets were from an older lot. On another coon, and with newer bullets, I got a wicked, baseball-sized exit on similar shot presentation, this time at a range of app. 120 yards.

To the other extreme, however, I did not get an exit on 2 armadillos, and both were taken at around 85-90 yards. In each instance, the entrance (again behind the shoulder) was quarter-sized or larger. I did not attempt to recover the bullets, but simply turning the 'dillos onto their side resulted in liquified innards pouring out.

I want to try the 80 grain Ballistic Tip a bit more before using it on anything larger than a coyote. Until then, I'll stick with the time-proven Sierra 80 grain SSP. It provides eye-popping groups with monotonous regularity, and its terminal performance on game is so consistent that it is boringly predictable.

By the way, I've found that with the 80 grain BT (in my barrel, at least) best accuracy comes with the bullet backed a bit farther off the lands than I usually prefer."

Also, I looked up one other bit of data I've compiled on the 80 grain BT:
In the test medium I employed, weight retention averaged around 74 percent. With the Sierra 80 grain SSP, it consistently falls between 80 and 82 percent.

Since that post above, I did take a couple more critters with the 80 grain BT -- and I STILL can't say I'm convinved it's the best option next to the 80 grain Sierra SSP.

In other single shot pistols, the Ballistic Tips (85 and 100 grainers in .25s, 120 grainers in 6.5 and 7mm and the 125 and 150 grainers in .30 cal) perform extremely well and are very consistent in performance. Perhaps due to the smaller diameter and the subsequent ratio of jacket to core -- not to mention a host of other factors -- the 6mm, 80 grain BT leaves just a bit to be desired.

Thanks Bobby. After reading that I seem to remember reading it before. Oh well maybe it will be of interest to someone that hasn't read it before. Thanks for reposting it.

The main reason I asked is that my buddy talked about me loading the 80gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips in his 15" Encore .243, and I talked him into the 80gr. Speer Hot Core Spitzer due to the increased velocity offered by the .243 in this instance.

Larry

Larry-

You gave him excellent advice...

Bobby

Thanks Bobby. I have always had good results using the 80gr. Speer Hot Core Spitzer in the past out of my 6mm-223's.

This Encore has been a fun project to work with albeit a little more recoil than I would want for a day in a Prairie Dog Town. The owner of this Encore has never hunter (or shot for that matter) with a Speciality Handgun, so this has been all new to him. He didn't like the Rubber Grip and Forend that came with the Encore, so we fixed him up with a grip and forend made from Laminated Wood. These are from EABCo (and I believe are made by Boyds). For the Forend we used a Rifle Forend that I cut down and reshaped. I think it turned out OK for our first attempt at such a project.








The forend is free floated except for two saddles where the attaching screws go through the forend and into the barrel.

This gun has kind of changed my opinion on the Encore. Now we just need to FIX THE TRIGGER.

Larry

Bobby: I didn't know if you guys could get enough velocity to make the heavier bullets work with the smaller cases. What prompted me to try the the SSTs was the bad rap they have gotten for being too soft on the rifle hunting threads. I am sure know, what is too soft in a rifle is often just right in a hangun.

While I realize that water tests don't translate well to game performance, I do believe that they are useful for comparing different bullets and eliminating what you do not want to use on game with out having to go out and shoot a big game animal to do it.

Great report on the 80 Gr. bullet. Please, keep up the good work. All of you people provide a wealth of good information on this and other fourms where you respond, and I enjoy reading what you all have to say...Rusty.