Mr. Bellm,

I have been reading alot of your posts lately and even when to your web site to check things out. Seems to me that you have alot of new or at least CORRECT views of how to set up a T/C single shot to make it shoot correctly. Because of this I was hoping to get your opinion on a couple problems I have been having with my T/C Encore. This will take a while to explain to you so please bare with me as I hope you can tell me what my problem is.

It all started off a couple years back when I ordered a Lilja barrel blank intended to be fitted to an XP-100 in 284 Win. Way things turned out the barrel blank was sent off to Virgin Valley to be made into a 15" Encore pistol barrel.

I asked their opinion on which of the larger 7mm rounds could be chambered in the Encore and I was sent a list of chamberings that they had and that would work well in the Encore.

The chamberings that really caught my attention were the 7.21 Tomahawk and Firebird from Lazzeroni. I had heard that one should not use rounds with case heads larger then a standard belted magnum in the Encore unless pressures were to be down loaded to a safe level.

Thinking they had misunderstood my request or at least which firearm I intended to use, I called then again and I believe I spoke to a very nice man named Steve. He told me this was not a mistake and that the two Lazzeroni rounds were totally safe in the Encore but for the handgun length barrel, he could only recommend the Tomahawk.

In fact he stated that there had been several Encore handguns chambered for this and other Lazzeroni short rounds with very impressive results with no need to use reduced loads.

I was pumped and sent the barrel off with instructions to cut the chamber to the 7.21 Tomahawk.

Well in about six weeks I got the barrel back and must say I was very happy with the looks of the barrel. At the range, I was even more happy.

Using the 140 gr Ballistic Silvertip, the first three break-in rounds cut a half inch group at 100 yards. This was a starting load and only developed about 2650 fps.

I proceeded developing loads with great success as all groups were in the sub 3/4" range and often half that for three shots. Velocity was in the 2900 fps range when I had fireformed my first two boxes of brass and started over with these same fire formed brass.

Being totally happy with the performance and accuracy, I loaded them all up to this 2900 fps level and headed back to the range to sight the handgun in for the hunting season.

I shot the first three shot group, which was in the 3/4" range and had two of the three cases have head seperation. This always happened one the top of the cases when in the firing position.

I thought I had been very careful to just barely bump the shoulder so as to just, and I mean JUST, close easily on a sized case. But I wanted to make sure.

I went back to the bench and with the second box of once fired brass, I sized them just until I needed to snap the action closed sharply to make it lock up.

Back at the range I fired another three shot group with the same great accuracy but again I had one head seperate out of those three. A second group of three produced two head splits. Again all on the top of the case in the fired position.

I checked the load data and I was still a full 5 grains under the data I got from Lazzeroni which was fine with me. I called both Virgin Valley and Lazzeroni and this time I was told by both that the Encore could not handle a round with this size of a case head. In fact Lazzeroni was a real A--! about this and said I was basically stupid for trying it. Funny thing though, on his web-site, in the trophy room, there were three pictures of hunters using Encores: one in the Tomahawk and two in his 338 version of the short mag.

Basically I though I had just thrown away alot of money on a worthless gun but figured that maybe I could load the round to lower pressures and have a fieldable gun with descent case life.

I ordered another two boxes of brass and loaded some test rounds to 2700 fps with the 140 gr Ballistic Tip. Accuracy was again great but when I measured the fired case walls with my RCBS concentricity gauge, I found that on the first firing, the cases had thinned to only .015" on the top of the case in fired position.

Even when loaded down to 2500 fps, which my 7mm08 will easily do, the case can still only be fired three times at max.

I came to the conclusion that I had a very accurate handgun which used $2 a piece brass which could only be fired safely once and then discarded. I was very unhappy.

Since then I have shot the handgun very little as you can imagine.

This last fall, I had another Encore barrel given to me. This one was a factory barrel chambered in 7mm-08. It was given away because the first nearly 3/8" or rifling was severly pitted and the barrel was basically worthless. I was told the barrel was at one time a sub 1" barrel.

I took it to my local gunsmith and we did some more research on which rounds would be long enough to clean up the pitted section of barrel and still be safe in the Encore barrel. The round had to be at least 2.7" long so that left us with the 7mmSTW and the new 7mm RUM.

My smith did not like the idea of the belted case in the Encore but I was worried again about the large case head of the 7mm RUM. He talked me into the larger round with some technical talk and soon I had a new monster on the Encore.

True to word the barrel was quite accurate with the first group being just under an inch. Accuracy was not what I was worried about. After I had fired 9 cases I went to the bench and measured the case walls. Again they were stretching in the case head area and my stomach got sick.

I did some testing and if I loaded the rounds in the same position every time, I could get three firings on each case but on the third firing cases were getting dangerously thin.

I then began to think that maybe my frame was out of square and allowing the brass to stretch more at the top then the bottom and that was causing my problems.

Another frame was tested this time using my 270 Win barrel. Even with the 270 barrel, I was getting the beginnings of case head seperation with my frame, but the new frame was even worse. I was totally baffled.

Then I noticed that Virgin Valley is avdertising with a picture of a full blown engraved Encore chambered for the 300 WSM. This case is just a bit wider then my 7mm RUM so how can they be getting good results with this case and I am not.

Are these cases just to big in diameter or do I have another problem that is doing this? Perhaps is my frame the problem? Can these large rounds be chambered in the Encore and still get good case life?

If you have any ideas or ways to solve my problem I would be most interested to hear from you.

I have basically come to the conclusion that my Encore barrels will be limited to either small case head size(06 class) rounds or low pressure big bore rounds such as the 50 A.E. and similiar rounds.

All my high intensity rounds like my 338-300 WSM will be built on the XP-100 action.

Your thoughts are very welcome.

Good Shooting!!!

50

50,

I think Mike might be off the internet for week or two according to his latest newsletter/e-mail. You might try cutting and pasting your message into an e-mail and shooting it directly to him.

Regards

50,

If Mike dosen't get back to you soon on this, feel free to e-mail or call me and we can discuss the problems you are having. I'd be happy to do what I can.

Been laying low, spending more domestic time over the Christmas holiday and locked up in the gungeon making metal chips. Speaking of which, I made up a gee whiz wonder fixture for locating and cutting the Contender barrel dovetail slots..... less than 2 minutes "floor to floor" time per cut (rough cut, then final dovetail cut) per slot, and "dead on" consistency.

To the subject. Even for H&H type mag rounds with about a .505" case diameter, not counting the belt area, the Encore is still not the equal of a good bolt gun. Bolt guns just don't flex like break open guns do.

Like with the Contender, everyone has to try to stretch the envelope until the handwriting on the wall becomes legible enough and "perception of the obvious" skills become more finely tuned.

My position is and continues to be against chambering the Encore for any 55,000 psi (+/-) round larger in diameter than the H&H type mags the factory chambers for. I may relent some day, but don't hold your breath waiting.

That is point one.

Point two is that you may have noted on these break open guns that some barrels will show a semi circle mark above the chamber where the plug in the face of the breech contacts some barrels. Note that the mark is at the top and never at the bottom. Translation: The barrel drops a bit below center, and thus past true perpindicular to the breech face. Thus, case heads will be out of square some. Goes with the territory and does contribute to the problem.

However, before rushing to condemn the break open gun, pull a few barrels off of bolt action rifles and start checking the squareness of the receiver faces to thread shanks and the squareness of these parts to the bolt face. As much as I hate the expression, "We don't live in a perfect world," this is a fact of life and what precision rifle work is largely about.

Back to your situation.

You have to remove as much "play" as you can. How snug is your hinge pin fit?

What is the lockup like? Any looseness there at all when the barrel is held rigid, as in a vise, and the frame jiggled?

What is the barrel to frame gap? How far do cases stick out relative to this gap. If cases stick out too far, the lockup may be marginal and allowing extra flexing. Obviously, if the cases are not filling the barrel to frame gap, you are going to get stretching. This is why I brough out the:

Bellm Headspace Indicator
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?category_id=38

Get one. Use it, and you will be much better able to get a handle on what is happening. Without being able to take the necessary measurements, you are shooting in the dark.

My personal opinion is to not go with the larger diameter cases in the Encore to start with, no matter what your testosterone levels may be. OK, so maybe I need Viagara, but creating problems should not be what shooting is all about.

Mike