I just got back from my gunsmith where I picked up my Encore that he rechambered from a 7mm-08 to the 7mm RUM. He also installed a Holland muzzle break which I wasn't real happy about but I said to do whatever he felt best.

He recently had his thumb cut off and reattached surgically and since it was on his shooting hand was unable to test fire the Encore so I was more then happy to do it.

I must say that I was a bit nervous to touch this thing off. I have fired some large rounds in a handgun but nothing with 90 gr of H-1000 behind a 150 gr Ballistic Tip.

At the shot I was totally amazed!!! My 223 Rem Encore kicked harder and has more muzzle jump then this monster. The break is simply amazing.

He didn't even expect it to work that well but as we talked about it we figured that at the 15" muzzle, barrel pressure was probably still in the 25,000 to 30,000 range which would make the break work even better then on a rifle.

I had to go back to work but tonight I am going to mount the T/C Recoil Proof 2.5-7 on her and go out to the range and chrony this thing.

I will say that the shock wave from this Encore barrel is intense. Feels alot like my LAR 50 BMG but with zero recoil. I am hoping for around 2900-3000 with the coated 150 gr Ballistic Tip but am more interested about how the break works for accuracy.

I believe that these big handguns seem to shoot poorly at max pressures because the gas release is so severe and messes with the bullet. The break will hopefully let the bullet fly free from these disturbing gases and shoot better, just a theory so we'll have to see if it works.

I'll let you know how things go.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Fifty,
Congrats on the puff-cake shooter!
Hopefully the brake won't be adverse to accuracy. As you know, some can be. there is a modifies Vais brake out now that does help in bullet disturbance that a number of the 1,000 yard shooters are using.
All I know is that it sounds like fun to me!
And I thought you were going to let one of us to the first one to pull the trigger for you.
xphunter

XP,

Sorry, but when I had her in my hands I just had to pull that trigger.

Got home tonight and mounted the scope up and headed out to my range. It was really over cast and windy so i just set up at 100 yards to get her on paper. The first shot after bore sighting the barrel was fine but the second solidly locked up the gun. I could not open the action or pull the trigger, something was very wrong. I took the Encore apart and found that the primer had flowed into the firing pin hole so far that it locked the action up. With the barrel off the frame, the case popped out with a tap on the extractor lever.

I headed back to the house to do some studying and measuring of the fired cases. I came up with a few deductions.

I wondered why the test fire round appeared to be so mild and then I realized that even though I ran a patch through the barrel, it still had machining lube in it which would really cut pressure.

Also I found out that the dimensions of my chamber are actually 0.001" less the minimum specs. Also I was using the CCI-250 primer which has a relatively thin cup.

I took 8% off the listed starting loads, switched to a Fed-215 primer and loaded those same three fired cases and ran back out to my range.

It was getting very dark now but I managed to squeeze them off quickly and was happy to see that in the near dark conditions, they grouped just over 1".

I took those same cases back and measured again, this seemed to really help the problem except that it appears that this round will also have a problem with case head seperation just like my 7.21 Tomahawk.

On the first firing, the cases had thinned on one side by .002", on the second firing, this had grown to .010".

This is about half what the Tomahawk cases stretched to but non the less, I will get three firings and no more. I can live with this in the RUM case that runs $0.40 a piece compared to the Lazz at $2.00 each.

I am also wondering if my frame isn't the culprit. Could it be that it has been stretched and if so how would one check for that? I'ld like to get a new stainless steel frame anyway, I guess that would answer my question.

Anyway, I won't know much until I get the gun over the chrony, maybe tomorrow I'll do that. From the looks of the primers, they look the same as the Tomahawk cases do when they are loaded to 2900 fps with the 140 gr Ballistic Tip. I'm using the 150 gr B.T. in the RUM so maybe I'm at that same velocity and my load testing will be over quickly.

I'll let you know.

Good Shooting!!!

50

fiftydriver;

Glad to hear you got the RUM back.Sorry to hear about the primer flowing back.So you say it is a pussycat to shot,the brake helps that much is a good sign.

Just over a 1" is also great.

I hope the the new primer will do better.

I am with xp,I thought you was going to let one of us shot the monster first!!!!!.You couldn't wait to let one us shot it I see how you are (ha,ha,ha)

Just one thought on the machine oil.I thought that any thing in the barrel or chamber would increase the pressure.I know that the oil is slick but it still taking up space in the barrel,which I would think that it would cause higher pressure.Like to know what you and xp think about it.

Wade

Fifty,
Whatever wonderings are worth, maybe we should consider bypassing any large, high pressure cartridges in the Encore (or any other hinge pin type action), unless we will really be content with less than bolt action strength performance and case life. What do you think?

I have a MOA Maximum. I think it would be great candidate for these kind of cartridges. Also, the Competitor (which I don't have) should be in the running.

Both of these are specialty handguns with interchangeable barrels capabilities.
Neither one them gets much press from the gun rags, yet they are well made accurate guns with trigger pulls that are great from the factory. Personally, I will buy a TC before I buy another Encore. I am content to use case designs that are safe for it (TC) realizing the benefit of light weight and portabilty. But there are other options when it comes to high pressure/large case capacities in specialty handguns with interchangeable barrels. You and Handcannons (Wade) push the envelope (going where few have gone before)in specialty handguns, why not do it in an action that will handle it better?
What do you think?
xphunter

xphunter,fiftydriver;

We all know that the Encore is not as strong as a bolt action.But someone has to push the limit.So fiftydriver is doing just that.I did on the Contender and have had cases come back and hit me in the head.You know now that I think about it a auto eject for the Contender and the Encore might not be a bad idea.You just have to ware a full face helmet.It would also have a good flinch factor.Also pretty damn funny to watch.

As far a pushing the limit on the bolt pistols,we need a good action that we can buy.Xp-100's are running out and now they are getting kind of high,when I find a good deal I will still but it.

I have been looking around at actions and not many Companys will sell you just a action so you can do with what you want.

I have found one PGW(paraie gun works)but they are really high,but if you wanted to something really brave then I think this will be the way to go.Just getting a stock for it will be hard unlesss you could make a McMillian work.Then you could make one all the way up to 50BMG.But I think that is a little way out there for one of us.If there was one built already and I could shoot it and then I like it then maybe,but I would someone that know what they are doing to bulid it or someone that has built one before.If the 300RUM works out good then maybe a larger cailber on the RUM case would be good but where do you go from there.A 375 RUM or a 416RUM with the heavy bullets would be rather bad to shoot unless it had a veery good brake on it,and still not hurt the accrucy.Just me rambling on been thinking about some of this since I droped of my XP for the 300 RUM work.If I built a XP in 50 not BMG but in 50Peacekeeper would be fine.But who would shoot the 50 BMG first if it was built.

Wade

XPHUNTER and Handcannon,

Again another good discussion with you guys, only wish we lived closer so we could compare and discuss face to face, anyway, XPHUNTER first.

I fully agree with you that I am asking alot of the Encore action but I am not asking for full power like I would if I were loading an xp-100. I fully admit that in the case of my 7.21 Tomahawk, i was misinformed on the performance of the round in the Encore pistol and in hindsight I would have been better served with a round such as the 284 or even 280 IMP.

My project with my 7mm RUM was solely to salvage a 7mm08 barrel that was severly pitted for the first .800" of barrel forward of the chamber. I was cautious about the fat RUM case and personally wanted the 7mmSTW as the standard belted magnum case is used by TC. My smith suggested that with the same head size and greater area on the case to grip the chamber, the 7mm RUM should be a better choice, plus no belt to play with the extractor. We both knew that full tilt loads wound be out of the question, I just wanted a round that would be long enough to clean up the barrel and make it useful in the field.

In my opinion there is simply no better action then the XP-100 for extreme performance handguns save maybe the Weatherby CFP but that one is way to pricey for me.

By the way, what is the price of the MOA? Up here in Montana I don't believe I have ever seen one, I have read alot about them but never had a chance to play with one.

Handcannon,

As far as actions go, I think we should look into the Howa 1500 action. They can be had and at a very resonable price, the only problem is cost of getting a stock fitted for them. I have also though about using a standard Ruger, Win or Rem action and adding a custom stock but the legalities always spooked me away.

For the time being, any XP-100 that I see in good condition will be put in the safe.

For the both of you,

I have been cramming my brain on this case head seperation thing and decided that I needed to check a few things. I have a factory 270 Win barrel so I decided to go buy a box of Rem factory 130 gr Core-Lokt ammo. I just took three out and shot them and came back to the house to measure them. All three were perfect on the bottom of the case in fired position but all three also had about a .0015 to .002" thinning on the top of the case wall.

This is about the same that I experienced with the 7mm RUM cases with the first firing. I am beginning to wonder if my problem is a frame problem instead of a case problem.

I looked back in my notes and noticed that with my 7mm08 and 270, there were cases where I had case head seperation as well as very short case life on both these .470" case head rounds.

My problem is that I either need to get my hands on another frame that I know is in good condition or buy another frame to shoot these loads and see if there is any improvement. I know I could sent the frame back to T/C but big game season will be here in a month and I don't want to be without a frame.

I have take measurements all over the frame and can not see where anything has stretched but I can't imagine that a 7mm08 and 270 win factory load should be should these case head seperation signs.

Anyway, its raining like crazy today so all testing is on hold for now. What do you guys think of a stretched frame possiblity?

Thanks for your time!!

Good Shooting!!!

50

50 & handcannons,
I forgot (wasn't thinking) that this barrel was a salvage job. "Old timers" slipping in?
I bought my MOA used (barely used), but still used so I couldn't give you a price for a new one. A guess would be $600-750. MOA is a "Mom & Pop" shop. They are in the process of moving this month to a different state. I'm not writing from my own computer so I don't have the web page, but the last time I checked it a few days ago, it seemed like it was in the process of being worked on. I'm curious to find the ghost with this case seperation problem. Have you talked to Mike Bellm about this?
50 BMG? ouch! I'm not up on the 50 cals, what is a 50 Peacekeeper?
Can you legally use a rifle action and turn it into a handgun? I thought it was illegal, but I don't know. If it is legal, a custom stock could be easily made, but you would likely need to go with a rear grip in regards to the trigger assembly. Concerning XP's, I have to agree, I love my XP's!
I think that the MOA may be the cheapest (interchangable threaded barrels) way to safely build some big boys. I need to do some more checking. Have a great weekend.
xphunter

Been listening to you guys and I like it. But no one said anything about a Striker. Are their some strength issues with it? If so I'd like to know. Just wandering. mvm

XP100hunter,fiftydriver,pshooter

The 50 peacekeeper is a 460 Weatherby necked up to .510 just like the 500 A Square but the peacekeeper was throated to use BMG bullets at I think like 88% of a 50 BMG with a lighter rifle and less powder.Made by J.D.Jones of S.S.K.I have been thinking about going to the 50x2.5 which is a 460 Weatherby case cut down to 2.5" and expanded to .510! One thing on these 50 cailbers is like the 50 AE when is it a classifed as a destructive device.The 50X2.5 shoots a 600gr bullet at 1900 fps.That is 4810 foot pounds,my 458X2 shoots a 500gr at 1650fps for 3023 foot pounds and it is a handful.

xp,my understanding is that if the maker of the actions sells just the action to you and they sell it to you as a pistol then you can do with what you want.But if they sell it as a rifle then we all know what happens then.When they sell the actions the ask the gunsmith what it is going to grow up to be,if you say a 15" 700 Nitro then it will be a pistol in there books and go to the BATF as a pistol.Just what I have been told and my understanding on this I might be wrong.Any one else have any thoughts.

fiftydriver.have you cut one of your case in half to see what is going on inside of the case?I do this alot when I think there is something wrong.I cut mine in half with a Dremel tool and you can check to see if it is thinning on the inside.Just a thought.I will be sending you some pics soon.

pshooter,The Stiker and me have never got along to well.I know that some people are doing some work on the Striker but I have no idea what they are doing.As for as strength goes they are chambering it in 300 WSM and that is a very high pressure case.But the XP has a soild floor and the Striker has a a hole in the floor for the mag well.Plus the left handed bolt never seem to be that smooth for me.

I would like to get all of us together and talk about all of this face to face,but where ever we meet will have to be opens 24 hours because I think we will be there for along time,we might even have to rent a booth.ha ha ha.Just think what we could come up with if we lived only a few miles apart,and had a realloy gunsmith near by.Ok I think that will be all for now.

Wade

Hadn't thought about the open floor...good point. It seems that someone should develope a breech break single shot with an above the bbl. crossbolt or locking lug just for these BIG boys, like a fine double. I hear my alarm now so I guess its time to wake up . mvm

Handcannon, Xp and Pshooter,

I have been putting the 7mmRum through its paces the last couple days, can't say its been all good news but it has been very interesting. Let me fill you in on my load developement so far:

Hodgdon lists 90.0 gr under a 140 gr pill as a starting load with H-1000 and says this load developes 59,300 psi. Since 60,000 psi is about where I want to stop with the Encore I reduced to 87.0 gr and started up a grain at a time. Here are the results:

140gr Ballistic Silvertip
Fed-215
3.665" oal
H-1000

87.0gr 2738 fps
88.0gr 2830 fps(don't know why the big jump)
89.0gr 2839 fps
90.0gr 2845 fps
91.0gr 2885 fps

Through out this testing I was having the primer flow back into the firing pin hole and making the action stiff to open. Last night I took the frame apart and inserted a small spacer under the hammer spring to force the hammer to hit the firing pin and stay there. Basically it works like a Colt single action army or old Ruger blackhawk. Also the primer flow is nearly gone. The only problem is that you have to pull the hammer to the half cock notch to open, no biggy.

measured these once fired cases and found 0.002-0.003" deep seperation line forming. When I fired these cases, I positioned the 7mm on the head stamp directly over the extractor. When I sized them I only neck-sized the case and as long as I again placed the "7mm" over the extractor they closes easily.

These loads were increased a bit to see what velocity I could reach and if the cases would continue stretching with the cases fired in the exact same position. Here are the results:

91.5 gr 2835 fps (had two very low readings?)
92.0 gr 2932 fps
92.5 gr 2965 fps
93.0 gr 2955 fps(No idea)

Cases on the 93.0 gr load were a bit sticky so I stopped there.

I then loaded ten rounds with 92.0 gr H-1000 and seated the bullet out to just miss the rifling for an oal of 3.700". The average was 2887 fps.

I took these cases back to the house to recheck for seperation. These were on their second firing and all cases ranged from 0.008 to 0.013" depth of seperation line.

Also as we all have seen, groups really started to do some strange things at the top of the loads. They started out in the 1 to 1.5" range with vertical stringing and as pressures rose and E.S.'s fell they turned to Horizontal stringing. Often in the 2-2.5" range. The barrel does need a good cleaning so I'm not to concerned with group size. I will clean her good and try some groups for real.

I also tried H-50BMG thinking that a slower powder may fill the cases better for better accuracy and consistency.

102.0 gr(1.0gr over starting load) averaged 2861 fps with an E.S. of 18 fps, much better, but the muzzle blast was unreal and groups ran in the 3-4" range with consistent Horizontal stringing. BAD IDEA!!!

I fear that as we know the top loads will not be accurate as the lighter loads. I am now going to test some heavier bullets, I have some Speer 160 gr SP and Hornady 162 gr BTSP's and will give them a try. Also I have a box of 120 gr Ballistic Tips on the shelf I use in my 7mmBR, may see how they shoot in the RUM.

All in all I have not been overly impressed but I have seen some things that I will be able to work with.

-Case life will be limited to 3 firings with this fame reguardless of power level loaded.

-2900 fps seems perfectly safe but groups are going to have to get better. Have go a few 1" groups at this level but feel I'll have to drop to 2850 fps with the 140 gr pill to get the best combo of velocity and group size.

-The Holland Muzzle break is a flippin wonder!!!

Handcannon, I see no reason at all why your 300 RUM will not safely hit 3100 fps with a 150 gr bullet, as I have hit 2950 fps when the cases just started to get a bit sticky, in the xp-100 you won't even feel it. Only question is accuracy?

One thing I know is that there isn't a game animal that I'll be hunting that will take a 140 gr 7mm bullet at 2850 fps in the chest anywhere from the muzzle to 400 yards and live very long to think about things.

I was very suprised at the velocities I got compared to the loads listed on the Hodgdon site fired out of a 24" barrel. Heres a comparison:

Hodgdon data(24" pipe) My results(15")
90.0gr 3196 fps 2845 fps

Thats a loss of only 350 fps, in my mind that isn't to bad considering the size of the RUM case, alot better performance then I though I would get out of the Encore.

I'm going to load some of the heavier bullets now and try them, see what happens there and I'll let you know.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Handcannon, got the cases, look great, thank you again!

Fifty, would it benefit you to go to a slightly faster powder? Or would that ultimately give some pressure problems. How full are your cases with these max loads now ? The velocity jumps are strange indeed. Maybe it has something to do with burn efficiency at pressure levels. Just wandering again. Sounds like you have the makings of some very effective critter medicine !! Have fun. mike

Pshooter,

I have though of that but in the 7mm RUM, H-1000 is a relatively fast powder when using bullets of 140 gr and up. If I use the listed starting loads, I would say that I'm in the 75% load density range, maybe a bit higher. I feel perfectly safe with thee levels.

I will say that after I inserted the spacer under the main spring, velocity spreads shrank a great deal. I feel this was caused but the increased energy that the primer was receiving from the hammer with the modification. Being what they are, the hammer and firing pin are very light in the Encore and have very little Kenetic Energy after the force of the hammer spring is relaxed as it is normally before the hammer hits the pin. This modification keeps pressure on the hammer even as it hits the frame of the handgun.

This has seemed to help velocity spreads so far.

Handcannon and Xphunter,

Just finished my next batch of test loads and grabbed the Encore to take it out and clean it. As I picked it up off the bench I head a faint tick. I wiggles it a little and damned of the rear scope ring wasn't moving all over heck and back. These are Double Dovetail rings from Burris and I have had this pair on several different handguns and rifles over the years and I quess finally the turning in and out had wore away enough metal to make them loose.

So now I stand with no new rings and no idea how this handgun really shoots. Would kind of explain the Horizontal stringing don't you think. When I removed the scope and rings, I found that the front ring was also a bit loose and the rear could be moved almost a full 1/16th of an inch side to side.

So as far as accuracy goes, DON"T HAVE A CLUE ABOUT HOW SHE WILL SHOOT!!! Thats good news though.

What is it I always tell shooters, "Listen to your firearm, it will tell you what is going on", need to listen to my preachin a bit more. Always good to be humbled a bit I suppose.

Well, I'll order some new rings and see what happens!

Good Shooting!!!

50

fiftydriver,xp100hunter and any one else for that matter

fifty;looks like your Encore is going to be fine.I am very glad to hear about the velocity that you are getting.Me and the gunsmith talked over the weekend and I am wanting to get the 180gr pill going 3000 fps or there abouts.You and a few others are getting around 3400fps with the 180 gr pill out of the rifle barrel.And I would like to get the 165gr going at about 3100fps(if your going to set goals you might as well set them high)With the bigger bore and the bolt action I might get close to what I want.If you are getting less than a 400 fps loss then I feel that it might be just whith in reach.But like you said tha accrucay might go out the door.

Now on the matter of my 50 AE barrel,the tapper crimp took care of my extractor promblem.Accuracy was great at 25yds during sight in it put 3 shoots threw tha same hole.At 50 and 75 yds it did great also,mainly was chrony my loads.And here is what I got on the loads that I shot.

All Speer UNI CORE 325gr
WIN 296 30gr~~~~~~~~~~~~~1443FPS
WIN 296 30.5gr~~~~~~~~~~~1515FPS

I was switching between the 50 and the 375/06 barrel so I did not shoot all of the loads for my 50.More loads data to come.

The 375/06 is not doing what I think it shouldI think that my 4X Leupold was bad.I shot a 3 shot group at 100yds with the 300gr BTSP Hornadys at 2250fps.That was a nice 1 /1/2 group then shot at 2 milk jugs(my part to recycle) and missed them both so more testing on this coming.

On your results form the 7 RUM.I was getting the same results from my 300WSM,increase the powder and the velocity dropped,extreme velocity spread.Until I got up to the max and past max loads.I think the heaverie bullets do better in these short barrels.Because it allows a better burn in the chamber.Just me thinking out loud.Did you try moly on these bullets????

I emailed Cast Bullet Tech and they said that we have 50 AE bullets out in a few months over 400gr(they gave me the weight and I forgot what it was).Got to go to work

Wade

Handcannon,

In my humble opinion, I feel that when tring to estimate the velocity you will get from a 15" barrel vs. a 24" barrel when using large capacity rounds the Encore frame will get you within 350-400 fps within the starting loads of cases like the STW and RUM capacity.

I would guess, and only guess that the XP-100 action alone will allow you to get at least 100 fps closer. Remember that I am limiting myself to starting load levels because of the weaker Encore action. With an XP-100, there is really no reason why you couldn't get very close or to max loads with ease depending on the usual varaiations like tight barrel, tight throats, tight chambers and such.

The Xp-100 is one of the strongest actions around, and safest at that. This action will handle a blown case better then any other save the Weatherby, which I would say is a bit better at deverting leaking gas but thats it.

I think it could be totally possible to get that 3000 fps level with the 180gr .308" bullets.

I also think the heavier bullets will work better or at least more efficient then the lighter pills. In my 270 and former 7mm08, I could drive the 140gr bullets within 20 fps of the 130 gr bullets in each.

All the bullets I use are either moly coated by me or the ballistic Silvertips. That is unless I am breaking in a barrel and then I just use standard bullets.

Sounds like your 50 A.E. loads are comming along. I still bet you have another 150 to 200 fps more to find. Its good that your increasing 0.5 gr at a time, its amazing the velocity increase this round gets with .5 gr more powder.

Thats good to hear about the heavy cast bullet from Cast Bullet Tech. Is this bullet going to have a gas check on it?

Well better go for now, lunch break is over.

Good Shooting!!!

50

I believe with the groups you were shooting with bad mounts, you got a winner! Didn't you say that the more you shot, the bigger they got? Might not be the pressure at all! Anyway, sounds like your'e having fun. Best of luck. mvm

Well guys, I've been hard at it every free moment I have working on this 7mm Ultra and have started to make some head way it seems.

My biggest problem is trying to get the load data figured out for a gun thats limited to 55,000-60,000 psi but in a round with published data in the 65,000-70,000 psi range.

I did get access to another Encore frame and sorry to say that this new frame performed worse then my old one. Using a load of 90.0 gr of H-1000 under the 140 gr Ballistic Silvertip produces 2870 fps and in a cool barrel, 3/4 to 1" three shot groups.

I took three virgin loads and fired from my frame then took three more and fired from new frame. I then measured their body walls to see how deep the seperation line was after the first firing. There are the measurements:

My old frame:
Case 1 0.001"
Case 2 0.003"
Case 3 0.001"

New frame:
Case 1 0.003"
Case 2 0.003"
case 3 0.004"

Results with the factory 270 barrel and ammo were very similiar. Although the newer frame did seem to extract cases easier then the old???

I did have a good suprise in load testing though. I decided to try RL-22 under the 140 gr. BST. I started with 85.0gr and got an average velocity of 3055 fps. Almost a full 200 fps over H-1000 with 5.0 gr less powder. Extreme spread was 71 fps but thats to be expected in a case that will easily hold 100 grs of powder. Only problem was that pressures were a bit higher then I like as cases were a tad sticky. I loaded test loads starting at 80.0 gr and went to 84.0 gr just to see what happens. Hopefully 3000 fps could still be in the relm of things.

Its 85 degrees today so I did't get alot of load testing done, barrel won't cool well. Cooler weather is supposed to be here this weekend so I'll hit it hard.

Handcannon,

Got the bullets from Big Bore Express that I am going to try in my 50 A.E. Got to try one load today and it looked pretty good.

With the belt off this bullet it weights 351 gr and has about the exact baring surface as the speer 325 gr pill. I tried it over 33.0 gr H-110 and got 1728 fps average with a 3/4" group at 65 yards. Seemed pretty mild yet so when it cools down I will try 34.0 gr and 35.0 gr and see what happens.

I'll let you know!

Good Shooting!!!

50

50 & Handcannons,
Well since I will soon be living in Kansas about 40 minutes outside of Wichita. You both can come to me when we have this long face to face chat.
What we need to do is attend one of the Bower seminars in the future where we can do a lot of long range shooting and visit to boot.

xphunter

I will be moving sometime around mid-October to early Novemeber. It will knock me out of elk hunting this year.

Hey guys;

Well 50 it looks like your 7 RUM is doing good in the performance area.It sounds like your frame is ok.So what do you think now.Does the case come out easy.My 50 AE does good the extractor slips by the rim sometimes but not very often,and I just slap my hand over the end or blow into the barrel and the case come out,very easy so it is still fine on the pressure.How about yours.You can take the extrator out and see what it is doing and if it is backing out of the chamber to much.

I have a ways to go with my 50 AE but it is shooting great 1/2 groups at 50yds all day.Just have a 2X Lepould on it.With the speed that I will get out of this I doubt that it will be that good at 100 yds and over so I will just mainly use for under 100 yds.I noticed in your picture that you was using a bigger scope what are you using and the range you shoot it at untill the bullet drops to much.I think it will be a great little gun for 75yds and over for packing around(but then that is why I bought the FA 475 Linebaugh for)with its 10" barrel and the small scope.It ought to be a 50yd whitetail sledgehammer.

The 375/06JDJ is going back home to its dad,scope base and the scope starting to move again shoot 2 shots touching and the next one would be inches away from it.Getting the 1/4 rib and three rings but on it.I have had T/C Duo ring,Burris dual dovetail,Redfield dual dovetail,and Virgin Valley bases on it and none of them could hold up to it.And the Virgin Valley base which is a Weavere style base was bending up at the first ring but it was alumminm thought I was ordering steel but got it instead.

My Xp-100 is still on the shelf waiting its turn.

xphunter;
I would love to get with you guys and go to a long range class or shoot.It would be great to see and talk to you two face to face. I doubt if we would run out of stuff to talk about.How is your Lass XP doing have you shot it lately?

Got to run

Wade

XPhunter & Handcannon,

Xphunter,

In a way I envy you, from what I have read and seen on hunting videos, Kansas is fast becoming one of the hottest states for hunting monster whitetail, which by the way are my favorite big game critters.

It is to bad about missing out on your elk season but good luck on the move. I would also really enjoy getting together with you guys for one of the Bower shooting semiars, maybe someday it will happen.

Handcannon,

Well, I've been able to do a bit more testing with the7mm RUM and have been learning quite a bit.

First off I have come to the sad conclusion that the 7mm RUM and 7.21 Tomahawk will basically be one firing per case. This is not a huge deal with the 7mm RUM as I can get cases for $17.00/50 but the 7.21 at +$40.00/20 is real hard to swallow. Chalk it up to experience I suppose.

Also with the 7mm RUM, I have found that load data for the 7mm Dakota is about perfect for the 7mm RUM in the Encore. And seem to be a very good match in the Encore.

I did test RL-22 with the 140 gr BST and started with 77.0gr and went up to 81.0gr a grain at a time. Remember that the 85.0gr load produced 3055 fps. At 77.0gr the velocity was a bit over 2700 fps, 78.0gr went about 2750 fps, 79.0gr was about 2775 fps as was the 80.0gr load. The 81.0 gr load was about 2830 fps.

Now, since the 85 gr load averaged 3055 fps and the 81.0 gr load produced 2830 fps I assume that there will be a large jump in velocity and pressure somewhere in the 82.0, 83.0 and 84.0gr area.

It is also interesting that at 81.0 grs of RL-22, I get 2830 fps and with 90.0 gr of H-1000 I get about the same velocity. Also extraction is much better with RL-22.

I am hoping to get an honest 2900 fps with good case extraction, if I get more thats great but I feel I can get 2900 fps pretty easily.

As far as the 50 A.E. goes, the 33.0 gr load was pretty good but must have been nearer to max then I expected because at 34.0 gr the cases were a bit to sticky for my liking. Of course, a 351 gr bullet at over 1700 fps is not bad.

I have found that the 50 A.E. is very capable of staying accurate out to 150 yards. With the Speer 325 gr bullet at 1850 fps, I get 1/2 to 3/4" groups at 50 yards, 1.5 to 2" at 100 yards and 2 to 3" groups at 150 yards. It is obvious that the bullet is loosing velocity and stability past 100 yards but it is still more then accuracte enough for big game hunting. Also I don't have my scope with me right now but I believe that I have her zeroed at 100 yards and at 135 yards I have about 3 to 4" of drop. I don;t know for sure but its close to that.

The ram I shot with it was at 134 yards and I aimed at the top third of its chest as it faced me. The bullet dead centered the rams chest and penetrated more then 30 inches and fully penetrated out the off side ham.

The scope I have mounted on the 50 A.E. is the Burris 1.5-4. It is a very versitile scope for big bore revolvers and single shot pistols. I can easily shoot it off hand when set on 1.5 power out to 75 yards or so and on 4x, my shot on the ram at 134 yards was a snap.

On deer size game(300 pounds and less) I would take a 150 yard shot with no worries about trajectory or energy.

On elk size game, I would limit my shots to 100 yards only to keep the energy levels up.

When I get home I'll check my drop chart on my scope and tell you the exact numbers as I am guessing a bit right now.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Hey guys;

Here is some info on some things.

My 50 AE barrel on the Encore is very accurate.I am no where near your velocity fiftydriver.My hottest load that I have checked was 1614fps with the 325gr Speer UNI moly coated.That is with a charge of 33gr WIN 296 have a few more loads to test.Still eject very easy.This set up with the 10" barrel and the 2X Lepould should be a great close range thumper.

My 458X2 SSK XP-100 is also doing great.At 100yds the 300gr Hornady HP and the 500gr Hornady shoot 1 1/2 to 2 inches all day for 5 shots.Some of the 3 shot groups where undeer a inch.The 300gr are going 2201fps and the 500grs are going 1744fps.The 300 are maxed out no more room for powder when I increased the charge it did not change the velocity at all.But the 500gr still have some room and I am going to try to get 1800fps.

fiftydriver;
how is your Encore in 7 RUM doing now.Any new info on it.Also how is the hunting coming along,plus any word on the XP-100 in 338 WSM

xp100hunter;How is the move coming,have you had a chance to do any hunting yet.Our bow season opens on Oct.1.

Got to go to work.

Wade

Handcannon,

Been real busy bowhunting for those little speedgoats. Finally after two and a half weeks of hunting every evening and weekend, I was able to get a nice buck.

I found a herd feeding in a grassy bowl and noticed two smaller bucks up on a small hill about 150 yards from the main herd which had a dandy, near 15" herd buck.

Around here though the large herd bucks will simply run his herd away from you if you set up a decoy and its nearly impossible to put the creep on a herd with twenty or more sets of doe eyes pointing in every direction.

Because of this, its the smaller that skirt the big herds that are the best targets for bow hunting. They are not as large as the herd bucks but will run in the 8 to 14 inch range. In my mind any buck with a bow is an accomplishment.

So I decided to try for the two bucks on the hill. As I ran, walked and crawled to within 125 yards of them, I noticed that they were beginning to feed around the small hill they were on the south side of. I decided that the wind was right and I ran around the north side of the hill to set up an ambush and hopefully have the walk right into me. I dropped the decoy and made my move.

Just as I was rounding the hill, still about 200 yards away from wher I wanted to be, I noticed the herd had moved farther east and were now right under the spot where I wanted to be, no good, if I spooked the herd, the two bucks would fallow them and I would be out of luck.

The sun was just about 15 minutes from setting so I figured I would backtrack a bit and try to go over the top of the hill and come down right on top of them.

As I walked hunched over for a few strides and then slowly stand, I covered about 100 yards and was near the top of the hill. Just then I jumped a cuvy of huns that nearly scared the camo off me. I watched the birds fly away and then turned to continue over the hill. Just then I noticed a set of horns facing me at about 20 yards.

I dropped to the ground out of sight and snapped my release onto my string loop. By this time the buck had seen me but didn't know what I was and was coming over the hill to investigate me. I hunkered down low and pulled the 70 pound Alpine back to full draw.

As I slowely rose, I say the buck coming over the hill, about 15 yards now. I placed the 20 yard pin on his chest just as he turned and ran down the hill, I stood all the way up, and say the buck turn around and come back to see what I was again.

I was still at full draw and no time to range my target. He was facing directly toward me which I really do not like but on an antelope I figured that my Wasp Jack Hammers would easily penetrate the sternum. I held the 40 yard pin dead center on his chest and pulled the trigger on my release.

The impact was very loud and the buck whirled around and ran down the hill out of sight.

I ran to the top of the hill, still out of sight and saw the big herd run out of the bowl but didn't see the two bucks I had been hunting. I waited 15 minutes and then went down to the impact area to scout for sign.

At the sight I found alot of hair and plenty of blood, as I followed the trail, it became like a highway of blood which ended at about 35 yards with a stone dead buck. The arrow had hit exactly where I aimed and fully penetrated just under the bucks anis.

It is not a huge buck but the hunt was one of the best I have ever had. This is the first pronghorn I have taken without the aim of a decoy or a rangefinder so I am very happy.

Anyway, its time to get geared up for firearm hunting, make that handgun hunting.

With the 50 A.E., It seems that you are just about where I am. Remember that I am getting about 200 fps more then you but also in a 5" longer barrel.

The 7mm RUM is going pretty well, it is shooting very well with 84.0 gr R-22 under the 140 gr Ballistic Silvertip at 2950 fps. Averaging in the 1/2 to 3/4" for three shots out of a cold barrel. If the barrel is warm, the groups grow to nearly 1 1/2" , still not bad at all.

Bad news is that cases are still stretching and I feel there is no cure for that. I'll just get two firings per case and then throw them after that.

I was able to go out to my smith and see the progress on the 338 WSM. To say I'm excited is an understatement. He had just finished reblueing the action with a deep matte blue finish, looks absolutely amazing as well as out of the bow new. Also, he sand blasted the factory bolt and blued that as well. I really don;t like the bare metal bolts on the older 221 FB actions and this entire blued action looks sharp and the matte finish makes it look like a real sharp hunting tool.

The 1" diameter muzzle, fluted, stainless Lilja barrel also looks pretty cool. I traded a new 300 RUM barrel of a Sendero for him to install a Holland stainless muzzle break and the only thing he has left to do is open the barrel channel and glass bed the stock to the action.

He said it should be finished end of this week or early next week. It will be a great looking set up and from the results I have seen from his other projects, I'm confident it will hold well under an inch at 100 yards, we'll see.

Sounds like your 485x2" is a real beast and one that will shoot as well, I have liked the looks of the 450 Marlin(basically the same) for a while, may look into it a little more.

When I get the 338 I'll let you know how she runs. I'm still hoping for near 3000 fps with the 180 gr pill. We will see what happens.

Good Shooting!!!

50

fiftydriver;

Congrats on your buck,sound like one hell of as hunt.It sounds like you worked hard for it.

Sorry to hear about your case life on the 7mm RUM.But the performance seems good in the Encore action.

Yes my 50 AE is doing great I want 1700fps with the 325gr Speers but will get what I get.

The 458X2A is great yes it is a beast at both ends but its performance is great.Yes the 450 Marlin is the same but you can't shoot 500gr out of the Marlin because of the throat since the 458X2 is a custom job you can have it throated anyway you like it.But like you did on your 50AE,you can rethroat the 450 Marlin.Plus dies and brass is cheaper and easier to get for the 450 Marlin.

Our bow season opens Oct. 1 cant wait.

Wade

[QUOTE]Originally posted by handcannons:
[QB]xphunter,fiftydriver;

I have been looking around at actions and not many Companys will sell you just a action so you can do with what you want.

The Savage is avalible as a pistol, would make a good basis for big bore custom. Would anyone be interested in a 50 caliber wildcat in one?

Pablo;

The Savage action has a hole in the action for the mag well,which will make it weaker than the XP-100 action.Plus I am not a big Savage fan.

But on the other hand if someone had a Savage pistol in a 50 i would be glad to hear how it does,or if someone as plans for one.I am always willing to try anything once.

Do you have plans to build one????

Wade

Guys,

Just got off the phone with my smith and it turns out that he just got in the Sako extractor for my XP-100 in 338 WSM and said that he would have it finished either tonight or tomorrow. Hopefully by the weekend, there will be .338" bullets flying, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Handcannon,

Good luck with your bow hunting, as you know it is alot of work but that is also the reward when one is able to harvest an animal. I believe this is the same reason that we are so into this handgun hunting thing.

I hear it over and over that our big Encores, XP-100's, Strikers and others are nothing more then shortened rifles. All I ask these shooters is if they have ever taken a big game animal with a handgun, any handgun? They always say no but somehow they are an expert about how easy it is to hunt with these big handguns. Those of us that know what a challange it is truely get the rewards of hunting.

Hopefully 1700 fps will be possible for your 50 A.E. I think you are really going to be impressed how this little powerhouse performs on game. On soft skinned critters up to say 600 pounds at ranges under 150 yards, it is a real wonder. As is the relatively light 325 gr Speer bullet. One would think that it would blow up on game but it hold together extremely well and penetrates quite well.

This year I hope to use my 50 A.E. to fill a tag or two out of my treestand, the 480 Ruger will also be getting a notch in the stock(so to speak) I hope.

As for my trophy type deer and elk hunting, the 7mm RUM and 338 WSM will get the go.

Good Shooting!!!

Pablo,

I personally do not care for the looks of the Striker from Savage, this is not to say they don't shoot well. Since this is the same basic action that Savage uses in its rifles for the 7.21 Tomahawk and 7.82 Patriot, I'm sure it could be cut into some pretty nasty calibers.

As far as 50 calibers go, they can run a pretty wide range of rounds. From the 50 A.E. to wildcats based on the huge Weatherby and rigby cases. There are a few guys on this topic that would probably shoot a 50 BMG in a handgun if they could fine one.

Build one and let us know how she shoots. I would suggest a case of 70 grains or less with the 50 caliber bore. Anything larger and you may not be able to shoot the damn thing.

Good Shooting!!!

50

You guys are killing me with your big cases--I love it!
Okay, who is going to build a 50 with a 70 grain powder capacity?
I confess it won't be me. I wouldn't use it. But I sure would enjoy shooting someone else's.
I'm going in the opposite direction with my 6.5-284 XP-100.
I'm in the process now of turning my FL sizing die into a bushing die for the Patriot. Still waiting to do load development with the Sierra 180 & 200 Game King bullets and my in-line bullet seater. I can't use it yet because my re-size die doesn't size the base down enough for me to use my in-line seater die (it was reamed from my chamber reamer). One of these days I will have all of my ducks in a row.
xphunter

Xphunter,

I was only saying that in my mind, if one were to build a 50 cal on an xp-100 or any other strong handgun, 60-70 grains would be about the max that I would ever consider using under that large of a bullet.

One could use the WSM case and get nearly this capacity but one would have very little shoulder to use if +50,000 psi loads were on the menu.

Anything more and I feel there would be many problems with recoil and equipment failures due to recoil.

I was supposed to have my 338 WSM by the end of last week, called my smith and he said he had it on the bench working on it but was planning on elk hunting this weekend with a bow and that it would be finished early this week. As we all know this translated from gunsmith talk to our language means "at the beginning of SOME week."

Anyway, I'm sure it will be here soon. Hope so, have less then 26 days until big game season starts here.

You've talked alot about your 6.5-284 and I was wondering what you experience has been with that round. It seems to be a good one from what I have read from you.

I aquired another XP-100 in 7mm BR that looks like it just came out of the factory box for the first time. Shoots great as well, better then my old one so I will be using my old BR to build a new handgun. Since I will have my 338 WSM, I was thinking about the 6.5 WSM.

What is your opinion of this round compared to the 6.5-284? I guess I am waiting to see what kind of performance I will get from the big 338. I have no illusions about the 338 WSM being a long range laser, it should easily reach to 300 yards to pop an elk easy enough but I would not push it much farther.

A big 6.5 seems like it would be a better performer at ranges out to 500 yards on smaller big game such as deer and pronghorn then the big 338.

Anyway, what are your feelings on this wildcat in the XP-100?

Good Shooting!!!

50

50,
I know you were just thinking/talking out loud-I was just seeing what kind of response I would get.
I look forward to hearing about the 338WSM.
By the way, congrats on another XP-100-you never can have to many.
The 6.5-284 is one of the premiere 1,000 yard cartridges. I don't have personal experience with the round, but there are many successful competitors who do, and I am choosing this cartridge for that reason. I could have went with the 6-284 but barrel life for premium accuracy is about half of the 6.5-284. Plus I'm more likely to use a 6.5 for hunting situations.
The 6.5WSM is still a possibility for my XP. If I don't meet my velocity requiremnts for 1,000 yard shooting then a rechamber could be in the works. But I'm convinced I will meet my velocity goals. I just didn't think I would gain that much more velocity. Besides, in this project I'm looking for pure accuracy (under .4) over raw speed with hunting accuracy (under .75).
I would be willing to use a 6.5-284 or a 6.5WSM for elk. I wouldn't feel undergunned.
I would much rather hear about someone building a 6.5WSM on an XP-100 than a 50 cal wildcat.
xphunter
P.S. There are 1,000 shooters using the 6.5WSM cartridge for competition. But it is a passing thing. The problem is that for some reason once you get beyond a 3,100FPS MV you lose the accuracy needed to be compettive at 1,000 yards. Competitors/Smiths are not comnpletely sure why this is true with the 6.5 bullets, but it is. But in a XP your muzzle velocity wouldn't be that high and you wouldn't be using it for 1,000 bench shooting to begin with.

[ 10-03-2002, 23:24: Message edited by: xphunter ]

Xphunter,

I would agree with your comments about velocity in the 3100 fps range as the limit to accurate long range shooting with the 6.5.

My brother has been working up loads for his 264 Win Mag for the upcoming pronghorn season(at least some of us are lucky enough to get a firearm permit.)

He is not using match bullets, nor is he shooting at extreme range but I have watched his groups grow in size from the 3000 fps level to his current 3500 fps level with the 120 gr Ballistic Tip.

I have a few opinions on this problem which I have formed from my testing of the 6-284 with VLD match bullets and shooting at 500 yards and out.

In the 6mm bore class of bullets, the 105-107-115 gr VLD bullets are designed for target rounds starting as small as the 6mm PPC and BR and stopping with the 243 Win class of rounds. This means that they are designed to run in the 2600-3000 fps range and do so extremely accurately, even out to 1000 yards.

I witnessed one fellow shooter drive five 105 gr A-Max bullets into a 6" group at a measured 1040 yard target using a 28" barreled 6mm BR. I believe his velocity was in the 2700-2800 fps range at the muzzle.

With my 30" Lilja barreled 6mm-284, these bullets as well as the Berger 105's are extremely accurate up to about 3000 fps. By accurate I mean .5 moa out to 500 yards. At 3100-3150 fps they open to 1 moa at 500 yards and past 3200 fps they get real crazy, often over 2 moa.

I have found that the 107 gr Sierra Matchking will handle an honest 3600 fps with sub .5 moa groups well past 700 yards. In fact, it has drilled five different three shot groups of less then 1" at 500 yards. I keep these targets on my loading room wall to look at when things are not going well with a project just to remind myself that every once in a while I can shoot OK.

Anyway, anything past this in velocity or if the barrel gets hot, accuracy suffers greatly.

This is all because these bullets have very light jackets designed for the small cased target rounds, just as with all match bullets save the .308" and .338" VLD bullets. Even these do not care to be driven much over 3300 fps.

I wish a company such as Nosler would use their Ballistic Tip technology to create some VLD bullets that would handle the strain of a big case and fast twist barrel.

I have never heard of a ballistic tip failing due to to much velocity or rifling twist. Could you imagine a 105 gr 6mm Ballistic Tip with a B.C. of around .500-.530 that would handle 4000 fps.

Or a 155 gr 6.5 gr Ballistic Tip with a B.C. of .550-.570 that would hold strong at 3800 fps.

I love these long bullets and know that high B.C. numbers are what counts at extreme range but combining those B.C.'s with ultra velocities and a bullet that could handle the strain would be even better in my mind.

Well enough of this, not really suited for the Handgun section, I apologize to all.

Still waiting for the 338 WSM, will give you a full report as soon as I get her warmed up.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Have you checked out the bullets from Lost River Ballistics? Their target bullets are of a homogenous construction (ie they don't have a jacket) and are designed with extremely high BC's and should not come apart.

www.lostriverballistic.com

B_Koes,
Have you used any of the J36 bullets on big game? If so, what caliber, MV, and distances?
Thanks
xphunter

Sorry dude, you're waaaaaaay outta my league when you talk about handgun hunting. As for me, I only "hunt" steel animals. My "hunting" distances are limited to very specific ranges (25,50,75,100,150,200m). I just brought up the Lost River bullets because of their extremely high BC's (not to mention price).

B_Koes,
That's okay, I would be out of my league shooting steel the way you do. I will try their bullets in the future for an elk load in my 7.82 Patriot XP-100. Once the load development is done, the pain eases somewhat. I love high BC's if the bullet is properly constructed for hunting.
xphunter

B_Koes,

I researched the LRB bullets when I was doing some load developement for a customer using the 7mm STW. As far as B.C.'s go they can hardly be beat, in fact if I remember correctly, the bullet I was looking at for his 7mm had a b.c. in the +.700 range, unheard of for any 7mm bullet.

This is all good but the bullet still needs to perform when it reaches the target, no matter what the range. These bullets have a solid metal nose cap much like the old Rem Bronze point and as you noted are make of a solid alloy construction.

If we compare the LRB bullets to the Barnes X bullet, we find the X bullet has a relatively deep HP created by prestressed lines in the bullet. These produce the pretty fou-petal X.

The LRB bullet has the solid tip but under this they have an extremely shallow cavity to allow expansion. Even when driven to ultra velocities these bullets expand very little, seldom more then full bullet diameter.

Also, because of the extremely long retained bullet length, these bullets are well known for tumbling after impact, they still penetrate quite well but the wound channels vary greatly from one to another.

At the velocities we are getting with our handguns, these bullets would not be a great choice for a game bullet, long range target bullet they would be awsome to say the least, extending super-sonic velocities several hundred yards.

Good Shooting!!!

50

50,
Thanks for giving me more info on the bullets. No sense spending time and money on something that won't perform on game well over a wide range of velocities. With the Patriot at the moment I am still working on the 180 & 200 grain Sierra GameKings. The hold up is I am waiting on a bushing die and a die to size the base of my case more so I can use a in-line bullet seater.
xphunter

Xphunter,

I really do like the LRB bullets for extreme range paper punching in the performance area, but for the price, I could buy 5 times as many Matchkings which shoot at least as well, have very good B.C.'s and will even work on medium size game reliably.

My real interest in LRB was with their bullets for the 50 BMG. I have been isong the Hornady 750 gr A-Max with very good results but am always looking for a better mouse trap so to speak.

B.C.'s are just a bit higher but they run in the $45.00 per 20 bullets, twice the cost of those big A-Maxs. Plus the A-Max in the 50 BMG make for a hell of a game bullet as long as the game is not large enough to promote full expansion, if they are you will loose the back side of your target. For deer and Pronghorn though, they are simply amazing, creating no more tissue damage then a 30 cal magnum round.

I to am still playing the waiting game with my 338 WSM. I have three weeks until big game season starts and that will be cutting it close to get the barrel broke in and a good load worked up, especially if the weather turns cold which it is supposed to this weekend.

He has the machining work totally done, and has even test fired the damn thing. The only thing he has to do is open the barrel channel on the Lam. stock and glass bed the action in.

I am getting a little impatient, I want to use this handgun exclusively this year on big game but will not unless I can get some range time and confidence in it, if nothing else, I will use my Encore in 7mm RUM, will easily handle the job very well.

Good Shooting and Hunting!!

50