Hey all just found this site and was wandering if you all couldnt help me out... I would love to take up LRP hunting/shooting.. I would like to be able to reach out to 1000yds and be able to take deer/elk as well as the little critters .. What caliber/bbl length/twist/loads should i be considering to reach my goal.. I have a contender in 7TCU 223 357 Herrett 45/410... Should i be able to get a bbl for the contender that will work or will this give me a good excuse to get the encore?

Thanks for the advice..

6.5 Bandit

6.5 Bandit,

First off, welcome to the group.

Second, as a relatively experienced long range handgun hunter, I can see absolutely no cartrige that could possible be chambered in the Contender or Encore that would allow consistent kills at your 1000 yard range.

I also do a fair amount of extreme range rifle shooting and even with the newest technologys on the market using high ballistic coefficient bullets with cases large enough to drive them to usable velocities at 1000 yards, hunting at these ranges is not something that shoudl be concidered.

Even if you take an ultra strong handgun such as the XP-100 and chamber it for an extreme performance round(for a handgun) like my 338 WSM in the XP. You will still be far lacking for a possible kill at 1000 yards. Even if you hit the target correctly, bullet velocity and energy would bot be enough for proper bullet performance.

My 338 WSM drives the 180 gr Ballistic Tip to an honest 2950 fps from its 15" barrel. I have yet see anything that will top its long range hunting potential in a handgun.

Other rounds such as the 6.5mm, 270, 7mm and 300 WSM as well as the Lazzeroni line of short mags up to .308" will shoot a bit flatter but will not have the on game performance of the larger 338 round.

Now you will say that the Encore will easily handle long rounds such as the 7mm STW and 300 WBY which are used for long range hunting in rifles all the time.

I am sorry to say that these huge cases for a handgun will seldom do better then the WSM case in 15-16" barrel lengths.

I know of one or two shooters that would have the ability to harvest game at 1000 yards with a rifle not to mention a handgun. There is no reason to try to do this anyway.

At least as limiting as the lack of cartridge is the problem of optical sights that would allow a 1000 yard shot on game. Top end handgun scopes top out in the 12x range. Try looking at a deer at 1000 yard with even a 12x rifle scope and you will understand the problem with what you are thinking about doing.

When I started handgun hunting with the specialty long range handguns, my first harvest was at 182 measured yards. It seemed like a very long shot with my 270 Encore. This past season, and dozens of heads of game later, I harvested a 4x5 Mule deer at a measured 317 yards using my 338 WSM XP-100. Even with this round being basically the full equal to factory loaded 300 Win Mag rifle performance, zeroed at +3" at 100 yards, I still had to hold just over theback of the buck for a perfect center of chest hit.

My advise to you is forget about 1000 yard shots on game, FORGET about 500 yard handgun shots on game, FORGET about 400 yard shots on game, and with any of the rounds that the Encore can be loaded for, You should FORGET about anything over 300 yards.

The Contender is pretty much a joke past 300 yards no matter the wildcat you chamber in it. The velocity and energy numbers of the contender rounds are far below what any ethical hunter would point at a game animal out at 300 yards.

My 338 WSM will add at least 500-600 fps over anything the Contender will get with a long range hunting bullet design and about 200-300 fps over the Encore. even with that advantage and my experience shooting these handguns out to +500 yards, I still would never shoot at game out past the 400 yard mark.

Get a good JDJ round such as the 309 JDJ in the Contender or one of the hotter Encore rounds, practice alot and enjoy being able to hunt out to 250 yards with a handgun.

Very few rifle hunters can shoot at this range effectively, doing it with any handgun is a real accomplishment.

If you want to shoot at 1000 yards, do it at paper, this will no doubt make you a better shot at more reasonable hunting ranges and will give you a good understanding just how undergunned you are at ranges past 500 yards with any handgun.

Do the same with your high powered hunting rifles and again, the 1000 yards will educate you quickly about how little we really are when trying to or even thinking about harvesting game at these ranges.

Good Shooting!!

50

6.5 Bandit,
Welcome to the forum. Fifty's opinion on this subject is in-line with mine. Stretching the range out to a 1,000 yards for targets or varmints like prarie dogs is possible with some of the wildcats made for the Contender by Bellm, Bower, Jones, etc. The Encore will definitely allow to step up with higher pressure cartridges and go beyond the Contender. But the break-open action designs begin to flex when pushed hard with larger magnum cases. You must be content. You give up rigidity for incredible flexibility. If you want to push a big mag type case to it's full extent consider the breech/cannon, bolt, or falling block actions. The Competitor and MOA have interchangeable barrels, where as the bolt handguns are not that way from the factory. But you can have bolt switch barrel set-up made for you. Like 50 said, the fly in the ointment for longrange big game hunting is finding a bullet that will perform well over a wide velocity range plus be accurate at the same time. Once you get accuracy and bullet performance, you still need enough velocity at that given range to penetrate your animal (including bones). I have one of the Lazzeroni cartridges (7.82 Patriot) chambered in a XP-100. I push a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (and several other 150 grain bullets) from the muzzle @ 3,000 f.p.s.
With a temperature of 30 degrees @ 9,000 feet above sea level my 150 Nosler is going 2033 f.p.s. @ 600 yards.
(Question for someone who knows: What will a 14 inch 30-30 and or 30-30AI do w/a 150 grain bullet from the muzzle?)
With just a 5 m.p.h. drift it moves my shot 11.3 inches. Add to this field condition shooting. This cartridge is also at the upper end of what you can achieve with a specialty pistol in 30 caliber. I have shot several big game animals including elk beyond 300 yards with 2 of my rigs. There are also times in which I wouldn't even begin to attempt a shot @ 150 yards.
If you are wanting to maximize your range for big game the Encore will definitely be my choice over the Contender. Well, gotta go, I have an appointment. Again, Welcome to the forum.
Check out the post about the Bower Clinic if you want to get introduced into longrange handgunning.
Seminar will likely be July 7-10 in Alliance, NE.
xphunter

Thanks for the feedback guys.. I was thinking preaty much along the same lines that streaching a pistol that lenght would be a problem.. Im no stranger to LR rifle hunting but never attempted anything beyond 100yds with a pistol.. I figured you would need at the very least a 16in bbl.. I current use a 6.5/300 weatherby to do all my lr rifle hunting and succusefully takin chucks out to 1400yds.. I just wanted some good feedback before i tried to go out and waste some money.. I new that i would be good to 400-500 but didnt think any handgun would perform well much farther then that.. Again thanks for the great feedback..

6.5 Bandit

[ 03-10-2003, 05:40: Message edited by: 6.5 Bandit ]

I current use a 6.5/300 weatherby to do all my lr rifle hunting and succusefully takin chucks out to 1400yds.. ????????

Could you explain the MEANING of successful.
Is this a once in a while thing or can you shoot chuck with regularity at this range?
Wind drift and drop?
If you can I would say you belong in the OLYMPICS.
You could be the next american Champ!
Fireball

As far as the believeability of shooting dogs @ 1,400 yards, Bruce Artus from Pueblo, CO I think still has the longest recorded shot ever on a varmint witnessed @ 2,067 yards (It could have been beaten by now). Also in the article it shows him hitting a 16 inch gong @ 3,120 yards. Precision Shooting has a book (more of a manual) that is called, "Precision Shooting at 1,000 Yards." It is 256 pages of inspiring information of what is going on in long range shooting. It is edited by Dave Brennan who is the editor of both Precision Shooting and Accurate Rifle.
sscoyote, my hunting buddy lives in Pueblo and is the one who contributed a chapter to the book entitled, "Ultra Long Range Shooting In Colorado (Parts 1-2-3).
I personally don't doubt 6.5 Bandit's remarks. Some people, no doubt claim things that are not true. There is also a number of folks out there who are highly dedicated to the sport of long range shooting and doing some things with regularity that seem impossible. These shooters are doubted until those that doubt see for themselves our have friends that they trust who have witnessed the same. I have found that to be true personally when using my specialty handguns, even though I have never shot at a target beyond 1,000 yards. The first time I actually shot at a target at 1,000 yards was last May @ the Bower Clinic in Alliance, NE. It was refreshing to see how accurate my hunting handgun was @ 550, 660, and 1,000 yards with my prarie dog through mule deer load. One of my personal goals this year is to go for a 1,000 yard prarie dog. Right now 700 yards is my furthest shot. I have not shot pd's for over three years, but that should change soon and now I am better set-up for that to become a reality.

Fifty,
I wonder if you could squeeze more velocity out of your XP if you had just a little more case capacity, without going to the expense of Lazzeroni brass. There ought to be a happy medium between the short magnums and the ultras. I hate it when I start thinking like this....

xphunter
P.S. I love accurate Long Range Specialty Handguns!

Xp and Sean,

Thanks for jumpin in i was beggining to think nobody has ever heard of us guys being able to shoot that long... Ive been shooting in general since i was about 4yrs old and LR hunting since i was 12 and im 26 now... My dad and uncle got me in to shooting LR... I can also state that i have made nonbelivers into belivers many times... For those that are intreseted in LR there is a video called Point Blank from Long Range.. There is a shot @ 1150 on a whitetail.. There is also head shots on whitetail @ 950.. This just goes to show you the guns we use are VERY accurate and most are not your pick up and run gun either.. my 6.5 weighs 16.5 lbs.. I will see if i can dig up my drop charts later on today for ya..

6.5 Bandit

[ 03-10-2003, 22:46: Message edited by: 6.5 Bandit ]

When does the hunting part come in?

To all,

Those that have read my post in response to 6.5 Bandit, please let it be known that I never said that the specialty handguns would not hit a target at 1000 yards or more. This could not be further from the trueth.

In fact, barrel for barrel, these short stiff barrels on these handcannons often out shoot their longer brothers in the accuracy department.

Also, the 6.5-300 Wby is a great ultra long range round presuming you are using bullets that can handle the strain.

I have shot enough long range targets with rifles and handguns to know that if I can shoot the way I do, why wouldn't any other dedicated shooter with good gear be more then able to do the same. It is the doubters that do not take the required time and expense(large doses of both are needed) to become competent long range shooters.

Hunting big game at those ranges is open to debate. My stance was that the specialty handguns, even the monsters are little guns when it comes to hammering a +700 pound bull elk at 1000 yards or even 500 yards.

6.5 Bandit,

If you took my comments as a shot against your shooting ability, I apologize as that is not how I intended, just that I feel no handgun is suitable for 1000 yard big game hunting.

Xphunter,

I have been doing some research as well on a larger case in the XP-100. I have been looking into the Dakota line of brass for awhile. I do feel that a caliber of at least 338 would have to be used to make it useful over the WSM or Lazz short rounds.

To bad Lazzeroni would not offer basic Patriot brass with a length of say 2 1/4" to 2 3/8" so we could make out own slightly longer brass with less body taper.

And sell it for 50 cents a piece, OK, I'ld even pay a buck.

Good Shooting!!!

50

I was not doubting your shot..but "IF" you do this most of the time you would easily get a gold medal in the olympics.
This is NOT sarcastic it is FACT.
IT is NOT a normal thing to hit a 6" kill zone at 1400 yards.
You will HUMBLE the the rest!
If you have aby doubt pull up OLYMPIC shooting on the Net and check out the groups they Accomplish at 1000
You can make the field with 6" groups at 1000
What you are doing Is OLYMPIC Medal shooting.
fireball

[ 03-11-2003, 04:38: Message edited by: Fireball ]

Fiftydriver, No need to apologize.. You didnt come off as i wasnt a good shooter at all.. Sorry if thats what i made you think... I respect your opinon on LRP's for that was why i asked the ? to begin with.. I wasnt sure what people where getting with there LRP's.. Since i havent shot anything farther the 100yds with a pistol.. By all means i would need to practice to get to the point where i would feel confident enough to hunt LR with it..

Fireball,
Never looked at it that way lol.. You do make a very good point.. But 6" @ 1000 is a VERY nice group and one thats not a easy task

quote:

---

Originally posted by cas:
When does the hunting part come in?

---

Cas,
That all depends on your deffinition of hunting!

6.5 Bandit

Ahh... gotcha. Sneaking in to that last 1400 yards can be tough. ~

The hunting part for me is different than dogs, steel or paper. Once the accuracy issue, placement, wind, paralax, and ideal conditions are settled the problem for me is bullet performance at that given range for that given type of game. To date, I have used my Patriot XP-100 on big game from 30 yards to 300 yards(I have taken game at longer distance with my 284 Win. XP-100, but I have alos had it ofr over 10 years.). Would I shoot further if the situation presented itself? Yes I would, unless I thought I had good chance of getting closer. I have never talked much about distance because it is a touchy topic, but here I go anyway. A number of folks who use Contenders for big game say a Super 14 30-30 with a 150 Nosler Ballistic Tip (Since I am using a 30 cal myself and have loaded the 150 B.T.). From what I read on this forum and others many would feel comfortable shooting deer/antelope sized game @ 200 yards under the right circumstances. A ball-park figure for a 30-30 w/150BT is 2250 f.p.s. @ the muzzle. At 200 yards the velocity of that 30-30 will be around 1,950 fps.
That velocity is the same speed my 150 Nosler B.T. is going @ 650 yards from my XP-100 7.82 Patriot. My XP is beginning to turn in groups @ 100 yards under the half inch mark with 180 grain SMK's (I'm closer to .75 with the 150 BT's). I will need to shoot at 200 yards for groups to see how it really doing. Let's say for instance, I have a gun that is shooting 1/2 MOA.
I have turned in groups under 2 inches @ 550 yards (yes that was off the bench) but it was my hunting handgun with my hunting loads under less than ideal wind conditions. 1/2 minute weapons have the capability to turn some fantastic groups @ 500 yards. You must honestly realize that your field shooting will not be as good. But for those who are committed can find ways to get field rests that are very close to bench shooting, especially when you are practicing field positions when you are at the range. So let's say that my field shooting groups are MOA. I still have a five inch group @ 500 yards. At 500 yards my 150 BT is equal to what the 30-30 is going @ 50 yards. Is this kind of shooting recommended for a beginner or someone who does not have the gear or practice? NO.
Will the reality that there are those who can consistently hit small targets under field conditions encourage those who should not attempt it, to try? Probably (That is about true in anything though).
You will always have people in a given sport who can do things that the majority cannot (for a number of reasons (time, money, ability, desire, etc.) Will there be those in that given sport who will attempt things they shouldn't? Almost always. Does this mean that the others that have a higher skill level should stop and only perform at the level where the majority is?
I don't think so.
Does this mean that if I see a big game animal at this range I will always attempt a shot? No, There are too many factors involved. Just because I can do it, doesn't mean that I will.
I don't know if I have expressed myself well, but this is an attempt. Back in the late 80's I sold my Contender because I felt it was inadequate @ ranges over 250 yards for Mulies (At that time I was not aware of some of the wildcats available and this was pre-laser rangefinder times so P.O.I. was a big issue--the flatter the better to make up for range estimation failures). I went to the XP's because of a stronger, more rigid action. One day I will own another Contender or G-2, and I will hunt within that cartridges limitations. I have several specialty handguns that are capable of taking game beyond 300 yards. Shooting specialty handguns has been an ongoing evolution for me since the mid-80's. I'm still learning and looking for better ways to be equipped in the field when the moment of truth comes.
Oh, by the way, all of my long shots have been a partnership between me and my hunting buddy (sscoyote) who works as a spotter for me in the field. When he shoots, I work as a spotter for him. We have shot together a lot and are aware of each other's individual strengths & weaknesses.
My purpose is not flame or down anyone, but a attempt answer questions and to express my convictions. I haven't used a rifle since 86 I don't intend on going back.
xphunter
P.S. One of the more important things that I forgot to mention in long range hunting is no longer where the bullet will impact (vertically) but wind drift. We have all kinds of technology to help us determine where our bullet is going to hit vertically. This is the main reason for the Sierra Game King. High BC + it will perform well over a wider velocity range than most of your hunting bullets.
When the range gets long I become more calm and it all becomes technical about the shot. If I am rushed I won't shoot. When the range is close I tend to get more excited and nervous. That may be wierd, but that is the way I am wired

[ 03-11-2003, 17:38: Message edited by: xphunter ]

There's really not much to be added to this topic that hasn't already been said. I have been hunting with XPhunter since the 80's when the Contenders were the hot topic. He (and i, riding his shirttails) got into XP's, then custom XP's, and since the advent of laser rangefinding technology, now custom reticles in the higher power handgun scopes to compliment the lasers, and to provide more absolute reference for bullet impact beyond point blank range. But this technology is so new that there are still innovations coming out every year. I just recently designed portable targets that i can set up in the field to shoot from a portable bench (or dropped tailgate) out to as far out as i want to go. We are still in the beginning of the learning curve when it comes to shooting at long range with specialty pistols (beyond 500 yds. or so). My specialty is coyotes, and since i began using my XP on them (just this last season), i've taken 3 or 4 dogs well beyond point blank range using the newer more useful technology, i.e. compact lasers, computer ballistics programs, and reference reticles. XP and i have done tons od shooting together over the years at pr. dogs/big game, and although the info. we garnered from this shooting gave us sort of a "one up" in the field relative to the avg. shooter, my education has been boosted dramatically in the past several years since we've been researching this long-range game. I'm right with these guys when they talk about the maximum range at which big game can be taken efficiently with a specialty pistol. Beyond 300 to 400 or so bullet performance is going to be the real variable that unfortunately technology hasn't kept up with yet. We'll see what happens in the future, i guess.

P.S. The longest recorded shot on a pr. dog was Bruce Artus' partner Kreg Slack @ 3125 yds. with a custom Win 70 in .338 Lapua Magnum Ackley Improved, 300 gr. Sierra MK.

Thanks again for all that responded..

Xp, Brought up a very good point that isnt metioned a whole lot.. And that is he hunts/shoots with a spotter... There is just absolutly no way possible for anyone to try LR hunting/shooting alone you WILL need a good spotter.. Well i shouldnt say no way possible but it should never be done unless absoulty needed and as far as i can tell there is no need to try these tasks alone...

Again thx for the response.. Like i said before i was just curious if these handcannons had enough go left @ 1000 yds to take big game... Maybe someday in the future but from what ive been reading so far its just not there yet.. Now those other little critters thats a whole different story

XP,

Didnt i read somewhere that you where goin to try a 6.5/284 on a XP100? Or that you allready had one? Well if you do have or are planning on it let me no how you like it.. My dad has a XP100 that had 221 fireball bbl.. But its been torn apart for prolly 20+ years.. One of these weekends i need to get down there and dig it out and get it up and operational again...

6.5 Bandit

6.5 Bandit,
Yes I have 6.5-284 on it's way. The "when" part is the big issue. Greg Tannel www.gtrtooling.com is building it for me. The problem that has cropped up and is perplexing for Greg at the moment is that he is bedding an H-S center-grip stock to the action (One with the aluminum bedding block). Most people would not bed a stock that already has bedding block like H-S, except for those who go the extra mile. I can't explain in technical terms why they do it--I just know a number of them do. Anyway he keeps getting torque (right word?), in other words it is not working right. Before this, Greg at most, has only needed to do this three times (My stock has the record at 5 currently). It is a 17 inch tight neck Krieger heavy taper 1-8 or 1-9 twist (I don't remember at the moment). Basically with all the bells and whistles with the intent to see how accurate it can consistently be out to a 1,000 yards.
Everything is basically done except the stock issue. Greg also built my 7.82 Patriot XP-100.
To do this right I think I need to try one of Leupold's Long Range series rifle scopes. I don't think the Burris 3-12 LER's are going to give me what I need for target shooting @ a 1,000 yards. I'm looking at Leupold since they are reported to have the longest eye-relief of competitive rifle scopes.
Does anyone know if the NF scopes have more eye relief than Leupold?
If you decide you don't want the fireball, let me know. An XP-100 is perfect for me since I am left handed. A right hand bolt in a specialty handgun is basically a left-handed set-up.

sscoyote,
Thanks for the correction on the record dog shot.
xphunter

Xphunter,

I just ordered in a 12x42 NF NXS for a customer to be mounted on a McMillian 50 BMG bench gun he decided he needed after playing with my 50 BMG.

This very high powered scope has an eye felief in the 4" range, very similiar to the Mk4's except it is a much larger and heavier tool. Not to mention the $1500 retail price.

Good Shooting!!!

50

fifty,
So which one has the longest eye relief say @ 24 power? I don't want to buy either scope new, they cost to much, even at wholesale. The leupold is about half the price of the NF. I'm going to find someone who has one (it will be a lot harder to borrow a NF than it will be the Leupold) and actually try them on the 6.5-284 before I seriously consider purchasing one. I have a guy here locally that will let me use one of the older 6.5-20 Leupold's with targe knobs. I would like to see what one of the LR Leupolds can do. I just don't know any shooters in this area who use this kind of equipment, little alone let someone borrow it! I thought the most money I would ever spend for optics is when I bought my 7x42 Zeiss Binocs. I use those binoculars all the time. I just don't know how much I would use a scope like this, especially since I don't use rifles.
Ernie

Ernie

I have an 8 X 32 Nightforce on my 50 BMG.......these scopes are HUGE!!! I wouldn't use one on a normal sized rifle, let alone an XP............

Fifty & Mark,
I guess that just shows how little I have paid attention to rifle stuff. Sounds like a Leupold is the front runner. I really didn't know they were that big. When you are wanting to do something right you want to consider all the options. Thanks for helping me realize that a NF is not for me (I think price alone would have likely made the decision). I will try this older 6.5-20 that I can borrow and then check the specs on the Long range models and see how much difference there is. I'm going to be trying an older 6-24 B&L on my MOA. That may just be what the doctor ordered for fly shooting @ 200 yards.
Ernie

[ 03-12-2003, 18:56: Message edited by: xphunter ]

Xphunter,

I would say the two scopes are about the same in eye relief but as you state the NF is very pricy and not on the used market.

You might want to see if one of the custom guys can alter a rifle scope to a mid range focus point of 10-12 inches like a scout scope or something like that.

Good Shooting!!!

50

xphunter - sent you an e-mail - thanks

50,
If you know of anyone who might do this, please let me (and the forum) know.
Ernie

Xphunter,

I know there are a couple companies that will do custom reticles and power conversions. I also though I remembered hearing about them doing custom eye relief work as well.

I do not have my refferences with me right now but I will look into it tonight and if I find anything I will post my findings, or at least companies to get ahold of.

I would have to admit that a 6.5-20 LER would be great for extreme range shooting.

Good Shooting!!!

50

50,
Thanks for checking into it. I imagine there would be several guys interested in this.

Ernie