Well, finally had a small window between customers rifles so I kicked it in the rear and got my XP-100 put together in 6.5mm WSM.

This XP has a 15" Lilja stainless barrel with a muzzle diameter of .650".

Very light compared to my 338 WSM XP-100 with its 1.000" muzzle.

Anyway, starter the barrel brake in with the 155 gr Sierra MK as I have found longer bullets seem to smooth out a barrel quicker but thats another post!

I was very happy to see that with the big 155 gr Mk the handgun was averaging 3/4 moa even from an oily barrel. Velocity was very low, around 2250 fps but I wanted it pretty low.

Once the barrel break in was finished I loaded up some 120 gr Ballistic Tips with Rl-22 adn a CCI-250 primer. Since I will only be using this handgun for deer out to 400 yards or so, I figured this bullet would be relatively easy to get to shoot well and would be plenty for even big whitetails and mulies out to 400 yards.

With my starting load, I got an average velocity of 2755 fps and three, three shot groups averaged .488" ctc at 100 yards. I was totally happy with the accuracy but the velocity was pretty low.

I proceeded to work up the presure a grain at a time and currently I am at 67.0 gr Rl-22 which is going 3055 fps with the same 1/2 moa groups at 100 yards. Primer pockets are vigin tight so far so I loaded up test loads in 67.5, 68.0 and 68.5 gr to see where it tops out at.

I was hoping for 3100 fps and I will be totally happy if thats all I can get as long as the accuracy stays tight. I have shot +30 groups so far with this handgun and of those the largest measured .881" ctc and there have been 14 three shot groups that were in the .3's.

I ran some numbers in the ballistic program and at 3100 fps, with the same 100 yard sight in of +2.5", the 6.5mm WSM will cut the bullet drop at 400 yards in half compared to my 338 WSM, roughly -14" compared to -26".

After the big game season and the rifle building rush that I am in now, I will get some Wildcat Bullets 142 gr Rebated Boattail ULD's to try in this handgun. Since it has a 1-8" twist I may as well see how it will do at extreme range.

This is another example of how to fast of a twist really does not seem to effect accuracy in the least.

Will let you know how the top loads do.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

Fifty Driver it is great to hear what can be done with our short barreled handguns and how they do everything that can be exspected of the longer tubes. I still only have my one and only 358 win and dream of the day when I have a 6.5-284 or one of the WSM to cause wonderous looks at the range and by other hunters. When I do I hope to get you and a coulple of others to help me in my quest for those tight groups. One question that sounds like I am lacking in any shooting brains but how is MOA figured? I have some idea from others but I am not sure they know what the hell they are talking about and my books do not list the way it is to be done. Again thanks for helping me to build my dream gun in my head while I save my money. OLefish

50,
Sounds like it is doing what you hoped and expected of it. I am happy for you. I'm waiting to hear how the 140 class bullets do. I thought you might go with the 139 SST for deer. I guess I should have gone with the 6.5WSM instead of the 6-284 (not really). Are you using your new bedding design (poor terminology) with this rig?

Olefish,

All of us on this board will be more then willing to help or give advice about what we have tested adn I hope I can continue to learn from all of you as well.

MOA is a term used in the shooting sports to discribe a distance at varing ranges. In all honesty, it is uses incorrectly most of the time and even by myself as well.

When most say they have a rifle that holds 1/2 moa at 100 yards, we instantly thing that we are talking about 1/2" groups when this is not exactly correct.

1 moa at 100 yards is something a little over 1.1" I believe, I do not have the exact number here. So while we think of 1/2 moa at 100 yards as being 1/2" groups it really is not, it is very close at that range but if we say 1/2 moa at 1000 yards we are looking at groups in the 6" to 7" range verses 5" what we generally would assume.

THis is still not off my much and I feel this is why it is accepted in teh false manor so much. Getting real accurate with MOA measurements is only really important when trying to dial in adjustment at extreme range or using mil-dot reticles for ranging.

I am not the best to explain this real technically and I fully admit there are others on this post far more able to give you a good discription of what moa really is.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

XP,

We really need to get our lines crossed and get together to talk about these things. Evertime you call I get busy and forget to call back and then when I remember I feel bad its been so long and just decide I won't bother you.

Anyway, I will be developing a load with the 140 class bullets after the big game season and once I get the shop caught up and rifles and handguns out the door.

I figured I would limit myself to 400 yard shooting and only for deer so I ran a few ballistic models and the 120 gr Ballistic Tip loaded to 3100 fps will shoot considerably flatter out to 400 yards then anything I can get with the 140 class bullets.

That said, I know full well the limits of this bullet so after the rush is over or at least calming down, I will develope a load for some real extreme range shooting and see how things do.

Yes I am using a V-Block of my own design. It similiar to the H-S block but much thicker in the front half and a bit wider as well.

My design also has a milled passage throught the center, middle section of the V to allow bedding compound to mechanically lock it in place better.

If that made any sense to you, then your probably a mind reader, anyway.

As I told you before, I feel this is a better design then the H-S stock but if its worth the increased cost will be difficult to say.

I and just starting on an extreme accuracy XP-100 rig here tomorrow using one of the H-S Varmint stocks with the wide flat forend. After I get that one built and tested I will know how the two designs perform against each other.

To be fair, I should bed the 6.5 WSM in another H-S and compare the same loads to see what happens in group size average.

I would like to test alot of things but my customers want their rifles and handguns as well, funny how that works.

Anyway, I will let you know how the top end loads perform and how they work on deer this season.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

The only problem with being a good smith is you never get to shoot your own stuff!
It would be interesting to see a side by side comparison.

Well, my 6.5-284 is shooting good. Of my two best groups @ 1000 yards of which I shot Four-5 shot groups (first time to ever shoot for record score at 1000 yard match). From both those groups I had four shots in the 6-7 inch range. Each time it was one bullet that decided to stray from the flock (Sorry for the pastoral terminology) I need to work on some form with my stance and bag consistency.

XP,

How large would the flier open your groups up to?

Having done alot of rifle shooting at 1000 yards I am impressed with your marksmenship. It is not easy to get a top quality rifle to group that well at 1000 yards, let alone a much less steady handgun.

I am thinking about asking Richard Graves of wildcat bullets to design a 160 gr class bullet using his rebated boattail ULD design. He offers a very nice 142 gr version of this bullet and it does seem to have a bit higher B.C. then the 142 gr Sierra Mk but for a 1-8 twist I think a 160 gr ULD would be quite impressive.

With the proper nose profile, B.C. should get very close to .7

The only other real heavy weight is the Sierra 155 gr Mk and the newer 142 gr design matches it in B.C. so there is no real advantage to using this heavy over the 142, in fact with the lower velocity, it actually has a disadvantage compared to the 142 class.

But a bullet with a B.C. in the .7 range would be interesting for 1000 yard shooting.

What load and performance are you getting with your 6.5-284. Obviously the velocity spread is very low for this type of groups, very impressive.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

The two groups I mentioned were both morning groups my first group was during the light gun class (I was shooting my XP) 13.87 and my second group was during the handgun class 11.66 inches. MV with 140 A-Max is 2782 fps. Using H-4350 and Fed. match primers.
Do you think Graves 160 bullet design would work well with the MV's my xp would likely push? .7 BC is as good as the 180 class 7mm bullets.
I really wanted a single digit 5-shot group and I will have several--it is just a matter of time. It is not a gun competency issue, it is a shooter issue.
I do think I know what contributed to outside shot. One is basic form. I believe I changed my position somewhat and therefore caused my XP to be in a different position on the bags (Consistency issue for rest set-up and myself). Second, I think I was trying so hard to get all five shots quickly in the same condition I think I palmed the grip or some other form failure.
Next time I am going to be a little more deliberate (not so rushed) in my shooting and focus on over all bench set-up and shooting form. For me, that means more 5-shot groups @ 100 yards with an XP to work on my form until it becomes more second nature and then making sure my XP is set on the rest system the same from shot to shot. Once I get that down I will work on my speed.
The pressure of competition really brings out your weaknessess. The tactical competition and the bench match has brought several things to my attention to work on.
The More I Learn, The More I Realize How Much Further I Need To Grow In My Shooting Skills.

Just ran the .7 BC calcs across Exbal, and if u could get a .7 BC bullet to 2600 fps-- u'd get 5.0 MOA wind drift @1000, which would net u 13" less wind drift @ 1000 or so, compared to my 2750 fps 140 A-Max load which is 6.25 MOA (all this @ 4600 ft., 50 degrees, 20% humidity, SAP). Can this guy build a 6.5 bullet like this 50?? U know if u went to 1 of those 1000 yd. matches armed with a .7 BC bullet u just might take it all home, especially with that Siebert converted 36X.



Olefish the easiest way for me to figure MOA (minute of angle), is just as it says-- an angular measurement. In other words if a gun shoots 1 MOA that's 1.047" @ 100 yds., then consequently as an angular measurement-- 2.098" @ 200, and 3.141" @ 300 (obviously ideally). Sometimes it's easier to think of things in IOA (inch of angle) measurements instead. This is a very handy tool to have in the back of your mind-- because, it's an easy way to match up ballistic program bullet drop, and wind drift calculations with scope turret clicks, and ballistic reticle subtensions (measurements), such as those in the Burris Ballistic Plex reticle, IF u think of the measurements in terms of angular (increasing linearly as u go farther away). Besides that it's fun to play with too-- if u like math.

XP and SS and everyone else,

I will shoot Richard an e-mail asking his opinion of a ULD design in 6.5mm with a 160 gr weight.

Hell the guy is building a 400 gr ULD in 9.3mm so I am sure this would not eb a problem as long as he can find a supplier of match jackets long enough for this bullet weight.

Took the XP-100 out this morning with a couple customers rifles for range testing before shipping. Something very interesting happened. I loaded up loads at 67.0, 67.5, 68.0 and 68.5 gr of Rl-22 under the 120 gr Ballistic Tip and lit with a CCI-250 primer.

Once I hit, 67.5, my velocity flat out stopped climbing from there out. I mean it stopped cold. 67.5 gr averaged 3089 fps with an E.S. of 23 fps over 6 rounds.

68.0 gr averaged 3087 fps with an E.S. of 19 fps

68.5 gr averaged 3092 fps with an E.S. of 31 fps.

The interesting thing is that even though velocity levels stalled out, pressure signs such as extractor marks increased noticably. I have come to the conclusion that for this bullet weight, this is as much velocity as one will get with Rl-22 in a 15" barrel.

I am sure I could use Rl-19 or H-4831SC and get a little more out of this handgun but why? Extreme spreads are very good on average for the range I will be using it this season for deer and it will shoot very flat out to 400 yards.

Another interesting thing and something we have all seen over time is I ran out of my old supply of Rl-22 today with these test loads, never fails, just finish up tesing and you have to start with a new lot of powder.

Anyway, powder being the tricky stuff it can be, I dropped my load I decided to stick with which was 67.5 gr down to 66 gr to check for adn difference in burn rate with this new powder.

Loaded up 10 rounds to test and use for a rough sight in session and when I touched the first round off, the chrony read 3145 fps and the bolt was a bit tight, not bad but more then I like, the case head had a nice shiney spot on it as well, to hot for me but being somewhat of a crazy thinker I loaded another and pulled the trigger, again, 3143 fps and this shot cut the first hole in half!

Now even though we were a little high in pressure, there is no way one can leave a potential screamer group like that with only two shots so yes I chambered and shot a third, 3142 fps if you can believe it, 3 fps spread and this shot formed a perfect clover leaf that measured .205" ctc for the three shots, FIGURES!!!

Oh well, at 67.5 gr and around 3080 fps this handgun is shooting consistantly in the 3/8" to 1/2" range for three shot groups, plenty for me. IF only some of my rifles were that consistant!!

Anyway, took those three case back to the bench to check the primer pockets and found they were still plenty tight for loading so no harm done, just need to adjust my load down a bit I suppose.

Its interesting that the old lot of powder topped out at just shy of 3100 fps but the obviously faster new lot went well over 3100 fps with 1.5 gr less powder, go figure, need to order some 8 lb kegs I suppose!

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

Talked with Richard today and he thinks it would be a pretty simple project to design a 160 gr ULD rebated boattail bullet.

He did say that he would have to use 7mm match jackets and size them down correctly for the 6.5mm to get a long enough jacket for this weight.

Also said he may need a new nose profile die for the longer length of the bullet.

I asked him what it would cost to get set up to build them and expect I will hear from him tonight or tomorrow.

He believes such a design should go well into the .7's in B.C.!

Imagine a target bullet with a .75 B.C. out of an XP. Could be a hell of a long range combo. Will let you know when I hear more.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

50 saw the same burn rate variation with a friends AR .223. AA 2520 was burning differently with different lots. He had a similar consistency problem with base to ogive with a different lot of 50 gr. Nos. B. Tips. Darn shame these companies can't get consistent lot to lot on at least length of base to ogive. But it must be tough to do as i've seen if with all the manufacturers so far including the customs.

SS,

The accuracy of the load was top nothc no matter the powder charge so teh Nosler 120 gr 6.5mm bullets must be pretty consistant.

Velocity spreads were also very low, in the 20 fps range thoughout the testing, this new lot of powder was just substantially faster burning then the old one.

Retested my loads today and 66.0 gr of the new powder matched the old lot almost to the fps with its 68.0 gr load. Groups and velocity spreads were also nearly identical so I am happy again, until I have to get a new lot of powder that is!!!

I loaded up 50 rounds of ammo and will head to my 400 yard target sometime this week. I have an XP and a rifle to finish building and range test before this weekend so my stuff will come after shop work.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)