The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Single Shot Pistols VV JeffGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| VV Jeff | Login/Join |
| one of us |
I never did see an answer to my question about why you guys only allow a $69 credit when the customer supplies his own barrel blank???? Not trying to be a PITA, just want to know. | ||
|
| one of us |
Well it was answered pretty well by some of the other folks on here, so I didn't really bother. Without going into details about the economics of our company, I�ll just tell you that it was a number we decided on after considering the factors involved. The cost of our own blank, and the problems that can arise when using a different blank. Some barrel manufacturers blanks (Blackstar in particular) are a little more difficult to turn and chamber. Some blanks are so poorly made that is not even worth the trouble of building a barrel using one. There are other details involved that I won't go into. That number was set for a good reason. Like I said before, we don't like using other blanks, because we have to guarantee our accuracy. If we build a barrel on an inferior blank then we are shooting ourselves in the foot. This is probably not the comprehensive answer that you were looking for, but it's all I can give you. | |||
|
| one of us |
Well Jeff, I didn't ask them.....I asked you because you are the man that can answer the question......answers from anyone else were just pure speculation...... I could understand charging extra if the customer supplied blank required extra labor. I could understand an accuracy disclaimer when using a customer supplied blank. I could even understand if you just flat out refused to use a customer supplied blank.......but I can't understand a flat $69 credit.......but then, I'm not in the barrel business..... | |||
|
| one of us |
Not my question to field here but I see that you're not really satisfied by Jeff's answer. Personally, I would probably feel similar to VV in regards to working with blanks from anybody other than the "preferred" vendor (in this case Shilen). Virgin Valley offers a "turn-key" solution to Contender & Encore barrels and this is their focus. They could just as easily stated that they WILL NOT work with other blanks and that would be perfectly reasonable. Maybe if they would have worded their policy differently then the "credit" wouldn't stick in your craw, but I'll guarantee ya that SOMEBODY isn't going to like the final policy. Heck, maybe they should offer TC barrel gunsmithing at "ala carte" prices where you pay a fixed price for welding lugs...fixed price for barrel turning...etc...etc. Frankly then their accuracy guarantee becomes a joke and would be nearly IMPOSSIBLE to administer. They would have to keep spotless records regarding who "gets" the guarantee and who "doesn't". Every time human hands get involved with a process then it gets more expensive and prone to error. I strongly agree with Jeff on this issue (not that he needs my approval). Bottom line is that VV is a top drawer operation in the world of aftermarket barrels. They are the ones that I go to first for a "project" and I hate to see someone potentially "punish" them for a policy that makes a lot of sense. [ 12-20-2002, 23:20: Message edited by: B_Koes ] | |||
|
| one of us |
This kind of reminds me of a sign that I saw in an auto repair shop long ago: You don't bring your eggs to the restaurant and ask them to cook them for you, so don't bring your parts here and expect us to install them for you.... (or something to that effect) VV has every right to make their own policies as they see fit. We, as consumers, can accept them or go elsewhere. Regards, Bill [ 12-21-2002, 00:50: Message edited by: Bill M ] | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey, the matter of the quality of the barrel blank used and some not worth making a barrel out of....you will go a long way finding poorer quality barrel blanks used by ANY manufacturer in the industry than some of the barrels TC has used over the years. And inspite of the oversize groove diameter condition commonly found in one source of barrel blanks, given a good crown and good chamber, most all can be made to shoot very, very well. Go back to the oversize .223 stainless barrel that I chambered for Sean.... the one that won one of the postal matches. Shilen makes better quality barrel blanks. And if paying a premium price for a completed barrel, one should be getting a premium quality blank in the deal. But for Mark's benefit, what it boils down to is the total labor charge for transforming a blank into a completed barrel. And this is the reason I went back into making barrels. For my .30 Bellm project in Illinois to fly, I can't be paying over $200 to have my blanks made into completed barrels, get anything for my chamber work, and leave any incentive for CNC Cartridge to "make it happen" for the guys in Illinois who don't want to be stuck with 75 yard handgun shots. These guys on average just won't fork over in excess of $300 for a barrel.... nor should they have to. Mark, if you don't like the situation, only fear and common sense will stop you from making your own barrels. Try it, you might just like it. It gets more addicting than shooting. Just a warning. I felt somewhat betrayed by the labor charges myself, so I understand how you feel. But Virgin Valley is entitled to set whatever prices they want, and they don't have to defend their prices any more than I do. No one is beating me up over what I charge, and I am not cheap. I just keep an ear to the ground and try to do what is reasonable regarding prices. Mike | |||
|
| one of us |
You guys are missing the point........ I don't have a bone to pick with VVCG, I just wanted to know why they only allow a $69 credit when using a customer supplied barrel blank..... that's it, that's all.....period! I'm not upset, mad, POed, etc.....I just wanted an answer to a simple question....... Will I do business with VVCG again?..... Absolutely....if and when they have something I need!!!! I think many of you got the wrong idea about my question.......truth is, if I was running their business.....I probably would make it a policy NOT to use a customer supplied blank..... for all the reasons everyone suggested.... BUT I still think it's silly to have a blanket policy of only allowing a $69 credit when using a customer's blank! If I had a really nice Blackstar, Walther or Hart blank that I wanted made up into a special barrel........I'd find someone else who was willing to accomodate me!! | |||
|
| one of us |
OK,OK..... Got it, Mark. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Soooo, One might ask the question as to just what their invoice price is for a Shilen blank, which one could probably readily find out by asking Doug Shilen for quantity pricing to find their bottom price. Or, simply do as I did and ask what they charge for parts and labor to transform my blank into a completed barrel, which is what they have done for me on several occasions. But I have a better question, since the water is muddied already. As you may well recall, for some time they discounted for work not done..... specifically, no chamber, no crown, no markings. Discounts for work not done plus the dealer discount added up to enough to cover the cost of my chamber work, and for about a year I got unfinished barrels from them on this basis. Policy changed for unstated reasons which I probably had something to do with, and now they charge full price whether a barrel is chambered or not. Likewise for the other items not performed. So the question is, why do they charge for work not done? I think this is very much parallel to the substance of your question. If their net cost on a Shilen blank is, and I am only guessing, say, $98, why don't they allow this much off if you supply the blank? I don't think we will get an answer to this question or mine. It just is. So there is no point in a "tail wagging the dog" situation with them. My suggestion to you, Mr. GonHuntin', is that you go get a lathe and a small mill plus some other basic shop tools, learn how to make metal chips, and use your passion for good barrels to drive your talents. I dare say that with the intellect and critical thinking abilities I have observed in you since meeting you face to face in '98 or '99 at Tulsa, you would turn out top quality products. If Fred Smith could hang around my shop for awhile, then strike out on his own as he did, I dare say you can, too, and from what I have observed, I think you would be far superior in the trade than he is. Let me get some of the additional fixturing in hand.... being built mostly by another shop that used to make Contender barrels.....then accept my invitation to spend a few days up here. You will find that this is not that much of a black art afterall, and that a little "leg up" taking you "into the light" goes a long, long way. I can still vividly recall being Mr. Hot Shot shooter, reloader, competitive shooter, master of all that was written about guns, 10' tall, early 30's, bullet proof, etc..... walking into P.O. Ackley's shop for the first time in 1978 after following his writings for years. I had no idea what I was looking at. I found out quickly, especially after I got all the equipment and tooling in '79 (except for what P.O. had kept for himself to play with and what the owner in between skimmed off) that I really didn't know anything. But with a few "leg ups" from P.O. and later on from Jim Garrett plus various machinists along the way, well, the rest is history.... and I still don't know anything. But I have more fun trying. Whether you made barrels just for yourself and others part time or got into the trade, God help you, full time, I think you would find it very rewarding. Just a thought and an invitation to join the ranks. Mike | |||
|
| one of us |
Further to the above..... ricochetting around the inside of my cranium is still the thought of a barrel makers' guild of sorts or a closely associtated cooperative of barrel makers, if that is a collection of hard headed opinionated people could work in concert with each other. This would be the greatest challenge. Bottom line is, I still think there are a bunch of things about the entire Contender and Encore system that stink, both from the TC factory and from all of us after market folks (myself included)..... workmanship, quality control, designs (specifically chambers), and prices to name a few basic ones. There is a lot of room for improvement, and I'd like to do what I can to help make it happen. Mike | |||
|
| <Fireball> |
Just one more thought about this, If wish wish to go to your FORD dealer and buy a Expedition without the enginge..you will pay FULL POP for the expedition and then PAY the service dept to remove the engine that Ford installed in the vehicle. Then you may cart it off on a trailer and have your Dodge Motor installed in it for even MORE money. I do beleive this custom barrel bussiness is the same thing. I think what Mark and others such as I are looking for is a real CUSTOM barrel at a Normal price. Anyone know what VV charges to use ANOTHER blank of OUR Choice? or will VV do that? I know that Dave is a little more accomadating to some of this but then he is a smaller shop. Fireball ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | ||
|
| one of us |
quote: | |||
|
| one of us |
quote: | |||
|
| <Fireball> |
Nope, that's not it.....I don't mind paying for quality, just don't want to get charged for something I don't get......for example, if VVCG pays $100 for a Shilen blank.....then I should get a $100 credit if they use my blank instead of theirs....but.....if my blank requires more labor than theirs.....then I should pay for it.....This is the way I see it.....If VVCG pays $100 for a blank and only credits me $69 for an identical blank that I supply.....they have overcharged me $31....and that's the bottom line from my perspective!!! MArk I am on your side with this MOSTLY I just do not feel that most of these guys are REAL CuStom shops! They ae NOT Burgerking...Have it your way.....NOPE They build a barrel with a few variations and you like it or leave it I guess. We both want the same thing but it would need to be done at a CUSTOM gun smith..IE hotrod shop. Otherwise we just lump it and pay full pop no matter who supplies the barrel. VV builds Complete barrels ONLY They will get their profit margin no matter what. And we WILL PAY MORE if we go to a custom gunsmith. I feel we are just better off to use VV or Dave Vanhorn to do this...Their Full Price is BEtter than a custom gun smith. WE cannot come out cheaper no matter what unless we build our own...And with the tooling?? It still costs MORE I feel to meet your(our) needs their must be MUCH MORE competition. Then suddenly profit margins fall and they make-um........YOUR WAY Sad but this is bussiness.......... Beating a DEAD HORSE fireball ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} [/QUOTE][/QB][/QUOTE] | ||
|
one of us |
Gotta say - this conversation has been very interesting. I've always been one to negotiate a price, but have never thought about questioning what price someone asks for their product or service. I still won't be doing it, but as a new small business owner, this has been an eye opener. Don't know what I've learned from it yet (if anything) as it is still bouncing around in the empty area between my ears, but it has been interesting none the less. And GoneHuntin - careful with Mike and the bear hunts. I didn't even see one and I figure this will be my new yearly tradition. He's a great guy and lots of fun. It's almost as addicting as the contenders. steve | |||
|
one of us |
quote:Yes Mark, be carefull, and especially do not let Mike douse you with fish piss or mole scat or whatever vile mixture of animal excrament was used to make up his infamous "bear lure" perfume I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread! And I am now that much closer to going through with purchasing a mill and lathe, and just jumping in with both feet and taking a crack at making some of my own barrels. At the least, such a hobby would be highly educational and also a wonderful potential stress release | |||
|
| one of us |
I already have the lathe and mill. Now i'm just waiting for time to take Mike up on his offer of lessons at Casa de Bellm. :-) steve | |||
|
| one of us |
That was fish blood drained from a bucket of fish guts and carcasses that had sat out in the sun for several weeks..... not applied directly to one's person, but on rags taped to my boots. It worked.... got one to within about 150 yards where he (it) left a fresh runny calling card right where I had walked about an hour earlier. It just didn't follow me back past Tim on stand. Tim, Steve, and I had a great time this fall, but it was a let down from two years ago when we had a lot more activity. Secret to bear apparently is covering one's scent or getting it up where the critters don't wind you. Haven't gotten that under control yet. Here I am with 10 days of the season left and a pile of barrels to get completed and shipped ASAP, plus some old work yet. No time. I did find a new forearm for my old Rem. M11 shotgun, though. Say what you want, but when I am the bait, I want the shotgun, thank you. But, yes, Mark, our bear season in the fall runs from Aug. 1 to Dec. 31, and you are invited to come up, play in the gungeon, and give me motivation to go hunt. Fall chinook salmon run starts at various times around the middle to end of Sept. Best eating salmon are the ones still in salt water in the bay. At least my little 16 pounder from the bay tasted GREAT while steaks off the 47.8 pounder Dee's nephew caught up here tasted more like carp than most carp do. Locals at the coast say the same thing..... they want their salmon from salt water. This whole machining thing is easier than you may think when you have the concepts in mind. Come on up, and I'll give you a "leg up" on it. If you are lucky, I'll even show you a mistake or two! They do happen. The invitation is extended..... the ball is in your court. Mike [ 12-22-2002, 11:03: Message edited by: Mike Bellm ] | |||
|
| <trcuda> |
Mark, I wholeheartedly agree with Sean, avoid the fishpiss lure at all costs! Its been 2 years and I still have to store my boots outside and I didn't even have any on them, just followed Mikes tracks! Tim | ||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
| View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Buddies |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| Invite $GS_USERNAME to a Private Topic |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |