I would like to know if anyone has any input on this system, its called final finish bore conditioning system,and also it only comes in 80 grain,is this to heavy of a bullet to fire in my 22-250 15" encore barrel. thanks in advance for any info

I have not looked at Tubb's site recently, but his "firelapping" system does have merit that also comes with a price that is not readily apparent.

He is most correct about the dried lake bed surface of an eroded throat, and it only takes a little firelapping to alter the tops of the rough finish in the throat to give less fouling in that area.

However, what the industry as a whole is generally ignoring is the fact that the vast majority of chamber throats, both factory AND custom, are cut too large in diameter to start with, sometimes as much as .005" or more larger than bullet size, yet still within the much vaunted "SAAMI Standards" that are wide enough to do a "U" turn in with a semi truck.

A throat considered shot out is one that has become too large to guide the bullet into the rifling straight.

To whatever degree a throat is cut larger in diameter than the bullet, that freshly cut throat is to that degree "shot out" before the first shot is fired through it. Ie., some of the total accuracy life of the throat was cut out in the process of chambering the new barrel.

Firelapping removes metal. And it removes the MOST metal in the throat area, immediately in front of the case neck and at the beginning of the rifling. When the bullet first starts out, the grit is sharpest and more of its sharp edges are protruding from the bullet than is its condition as it travels down the bore where it cuts less and less.

Firelapping a new or rough, eroded throat may improve accuracy ok, but in the process it also enlarges the throat and takes away from the total accuracy lifetime of the barrel.

So if you do ANY firelapping of a barrel, new or used, it should be only with very fine grit and only amount to just a very few rounds.

What you pay for in a "kit" is more information than product. You can go to an auto parts store, hardware store, or industrial supply house and buy various grits of lapping compounds very inexpensively. Then simply roll your bullets between two hard flat surfaces to imbed the grit into the bullets.

Use a somewhat reduced load but amply sufficient to make sure the bullets make it out the end of the barrel. I have ruined barrels trying to get stuck bullets out that didn't make it out the barrel with a reduced load.

The 80 gr. bullets are not a problem in your barrel.... just use a light load appropriate for an 80 gr. bullet. You are not shooting these for accuracy, so whether the long bullet stabilizes in the slow twist rate or not is immaterial. You will be shooting into the dirt most likely anyway.

In regard to the amount of material firelapping removes, when KTS was here about a year ago, I ran about a dozen firelap rounds through a .30/30 barrel while letting him borescope the throat between shots so he could see the effects from round to round.... may have been several rounds.... don't recall now how many were shot between cleaning and scoping. But if you borescope a barrel you can VERY readily see how much steel is cut away in the throat with just a shot or two.

In the 1995 Precision Shooting Annual, there is an excellent article about firelapping in which the writer monitored carefully the actual growth of the throat diameter as the firelapping session progressed.

Bottom line is that it works, but do it very judiciously.

You do not have to pay a premium for the materials to do the work.

And, firelapping is still best saved for situations where the barrel is to later be rechambered to a longer cartridge which will in the process cut out the damaged throat and result in a new one being cut in fresher rifling ahead of the old throat and "leade."

Mike

thanks for the info mike it sounds to me that I will not bother what aint broke.

In case Tubb has something in addition to his firelapping kit, post the url here for what you are referring to.

I'd like to check it out.... others may also.

Mike

mike I found it in the cabelas reloading catalog,its on page 18 top right hand corner.

Guys here is the url for the Tubbs Final Finish
at Cabela's

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jhtml?id=0003181214206a&navAction=jump&navCount=1&indexId=&podId=0003181&catalogCode=ID&parentId=&parentType=&rid=

Rich Jake

Thanks, Rich.

With the different grits, some are no doubt fairly coarse, and I GUARANTEE YOU that firelapping quickly increases throat diameter.

It also takes a lot of material off the riflings where the bullet first enters the rifling. This produces a longer, more gentle leade angle, and is probably more of a contribution to improved accuracy than what happens further down the barrel.

Back in the late '70s, there was an article in The American Rifleman where one of their technical writers, whose name escapes me now, did accuracy experiments where he shot given guns as is with their current throat leade angle, then went in with a 1 1/2 degree, long leade angle throat reamer. In nearly every instance he cited, it alone improved accuracy.

Don Shearer.... back me up if you see this, Don....did an experiment with a new out of the box TC factory .30/30 barrel with the standard blunt ended rifling and no actual throat in the barrel, just a .050" overly long chamber neck.

He shot it for accuracy in stock form, then had me run a long leade angle throat reamer in .150" and tested it for accuracy again. It brought groups WAY down.

Simply changing the leade angle in the throat can make a dramatic difference, and this can be done without increasing the throat DIAMETER like firelapping does.

Again, the firelapping knocks down the ends of the rifling on a long taper beginning at the extreme breech end of the rifling and becoming less and less further down the barrel.

Shoot a half dozen firelapping rounds through a barrel and borescope it. You will see what I mean.

Lead bullets seem to knock the rifling down less than jacketed, and if the lead is soft, it has more of an effect in cutting through tight spots and skating through loose spots; whereas, hard, jacketed bullets spring back after going through loose spots and perpetuate loose areas in the barrel.

Ie, if rechambering to a longer round where the damage from firelapping is cut out in the process, firelapping with dead soft lead bullets will tend to produce a more uniform groove diameter than you will get with either hard lead bullets or jacketed.

I started firelapping barrels back in the mid '80s after machine lapping barrels for about 5 or 6 years prior to that. I am no rooky, and do know that chamber throats are something the vast majority of "authorities" are essentially oblivious to.

I am told, though I have not talked to Dave Kiff about the subject personally, that at least the folks at Pacific Tool and Guage give some thought to it. Clymer, on the other hand, just grinds whatever is asked for or whatever SAAMI drawings call for. Point being that Dave Tubb is an outstanding shooter that no doubt has gotten some benefit from firelapping barrels, but he is NOT seeing the whole picture.

Again, do any firelapping very, very judiciously if you must do it. My advice, still, is to only firelap when you are then going to rechamber to a longer round and cut a new throat forward of the damage done by firelapping.

Anyone who wants to question this, come on up. We'll get out the borescope and start firelapping. You can very plainly see the effects immediately as the firelapping progresses. It can get pretty ugly, btw.

Mike