I just saw helecopter Bill's post opn the classifieds forum: You can't use PayPal to pay for guns any longer.

Paypal's terrible anti-gun policy

We can no longer pay for guns with PayPal.

This is terrible anti-gun policy. I will have to look for another online payment service. Anyone have any ideas?

[ 03-15-2003, 19:13: Message edited by: Sean VHA #60013 ]

If true, no surprise . . . as Ebay owns them.

How would "PayPal" know what you are buying, and is it their business?

C2it.com, owned by Citibank, is a fine alternative.

I'll have to check that out. That could be a fine alternative. No more business with paypal once my current transactions are processed.

[ 03-15-2003, 19:15: Message edited by: Sean VHA #60013 ]

Isn't Citibank VERY anti gun?

What is "ammunition without propellant"? If it doesn't have propellant, it's not ammunition now is it?

Sounds like it was written by some legal eagle.

Regards

If you plan on buying handgrenades, you can't use Paypal. Shucks!

I have written to Pay Pal for a clarification of the vague language used as well as asking if there is a sound basis for the policy of regulating legal activities or if they are simply pushing their own social agenda, either of which will have significant backlash potentials from the 80 million gun owners.

I made a living at my trade for 22 years without Pay Pal, and although I really like it for my online store, I cannot and will not support an industry bent on destroying my set of values that I hold dear........ also part of my letter.

I fail to see why it should matter what a medium of exchange is used for, especially in matters federally regulated and licensed, as in a dealer buying from a distributor and paying by Pay Pal credit or debit card.

Hopefully Pay Pal will feel the heat and see the light. I'd say crank up the heat.

If they don't, I will be one of the first to drop it. My online store will function without it via snail mail payments. I will miss it, but maybe not for long.

Mike

It looks to me like Paypal is regulating their shopping site, not the transfer of funds for those items. They do have a shopping site something like Ebay.

...they are a pain in the neck anyway

I posted this on a couple boards and "bug" posted this follow-up:

"Sent them an email and asked about other sites, and legal transfers on mags, firearms, etc. This is what they had to say:

"The Acceptable Use Policy covers items bought and sold using PayPal as well as any items sold or advertised on a website listed in PayPal shops. Any Shops found to be violating these policies will be removed from the PayPal Shops directory. In addition violation of these
policies may result in your account access being limited or your account being closed under the terms of the PayPal User Agreement, regardless of whether the violation takes place through eBay or another online market place, through the seller's own website or through any other forum. In all transactions, sellers must clearly and accurately
describe the goods or services they are selling."

Kinda says it all I think. Money orders here I come. Anyone want to start a "GunPay" online service?
Helicopter Bill

Sorry, guys, but I have to "hold my cards close to my chest." Close friends can guess why.

However, I am told directly that the policies are driven by the credit card associations' rules and regulations which Pay Pal must also abide by.

Unlike banks and some other modes of payment, they cannot make the necessary checks to assure customer compliance with the rules they must work under.

Like most of you, my first "knee jerk" was ".... another damned anti-gun outfit." The anti-gun aspects filter down to Pay Pal, but it does not appear Pay Pal itself is on some anti-gun social agenda.

Pay Pal, within its mode of operation, is taking steps to comply with requirements they must meet, which result in policies that may be more restrictive than other institutions are equipped to operate under.

The above is my interpretation of what I was told and does not represent Pay Pal policy.

The fact remains that if Pay Pal does effectively infringe too much on my 2nd Amendment rights, it will be bye, bye Pay Pal, hello new credit card processor.

Meanwhile, I think Pay Pal needs to sanitize and clarify what at least on the surface appears to be rather onerous "thou shalt not...." language. Sure does not sound like any "pal" of mine as it reads.

Mike

I have a hard time understanding just HOW they will track the purpose of private fund transfers.

I read it to prohibit the sale or advertizing, not merely the transfer of funds for a sale consummated otherwise. This is to no doubt prohibit the sale of weapons through the PayPal Shops (as is policy on E-bay).
While it might be "anti-gun" for E-bay/PayPal to refuse the use of its services to advertize and sell firearms - I believe that the potential for improper sales (i.e. to minor-aged, gang-bangers) through electronic media where there is no personal contact justifies their policy, especially in this time of easy litigation. Suppose someone sells an AR-15 to someone using E-bay and mails it directly without an FFL, then the gun is used in some school shooting by the buyer, an insane minor kid. Who is going to be sued? - E-bay, because the shooter and seller probably don't have enough money to make it worthwhile. As a business decision, why take that risk.
If the buyer and seller get together elsewhere and then consummate the transfer of funds by PayPal, I do not believe that violates their policy.
I see no problem with continuing to use PayPal.

This is ref the email I sent to Paypal. I asked flat out if it would voilate their policy to send or receive funds for: Firearms, ammunition, high capacity magazines, etc., if it were a LEGAL transaction, on a website where such items were traded. They Said Yes, it would violate their policy! And, if I could still use the Paypal logo to accept payments at such websites (using Gunbroker and Auction Arms as examples) for items no longer allowed on Ebay. Their reply was a definite NO! They will not allow it, and will attempt to limit access of individuals or websites that utilize Paypal for such transactions. They have a HUGE list of "Items Not Permitted".
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside&ed=firearms

Do I think you could "get away"with using Paypal to pay for items not permitted?... Yes. Would it be ethical?... No. Will I do it?... No. I think this is another erosion of my right to conduct legal business, as I see fit. I will not support these infringements, nor their perpetrators. Hopefully, a new company or method of payment will surface, and allow us to conduct these transactions in a legal, unhindered manner. For my part, I urge you not to support infringement of our rights by supporting entities that perpetrate these infringements. Exercise your rights, or loose them..........Bug.

Re-iterating what Bug was told, someone from the crffl list emaile PP and received this reply:

----- Original Message -----
From: <webform@paypal.com>
To:
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: CompanyInformation:Other:22:384 (KMM27834974V31207L0KM)

Dear ****,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

This is correct. In regards to the new Acceptable Use Policy, you may no
longer use PayPal to sell any firearms produced after 1898. This includes
all "pre-ban," sporting, collectible, and curio and relic (C&R) firearms,
regardless of their present capability to fire a shot.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.

Sincerely,
Suzie
PayPal Account Manager
PayPal, an eBay Company
************

And also this, from the same list:

I realize the popular response right now is that the AUP I cited only
applies to PayPal "shops", but that is not the case.

From the first paragraph of the Acceptable Use Policy (of which the
firearm prohibition is one section):

<http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside>

"The Acceptable Use Policies below cover items bought and sold using
PayPal, as well as any items sold or advertised on a website listed
in PayPal Shops."

Did you catch that tidbit? Not just listed in PayPal Shops, but
"bought and sold using PayPal".

"In addition, violation of these policies may result in your account
access being limited or your account being closed under the terms of
the PayPal User Agreement, regardless of whether the violation takes
place through eBay or another online marketplace, through the
seller's own website, or through any other forum."

Seems pretty clear to me: it doesn't matter if it's sold through
eBay, PayPal Shops, or "any other forum", it is a violation of
PayPal's AUP to use PayPal for modern firearms or any of a long list
of proscribed firearm parts and accessories.

>Unless one is blatant with Paypal's payment descriptions indicating a
>firearm, it is highly unlikely to correlate one money xfer with a
>prohibited item sale. To do so would require constant monitoring and
>go well beyond the scope of Paypals primary purpose.

It would also still be a violation of the AUP. Continuing the
paragraph quoted above:

"In all transactions, sellers must clearly and accurately describe
the goods or services they are selling."

Just FYI. They don't want your money. Why give it to them?

**************
FWIW, Lou

[ 03-18-2003, 19:23: Message edited by: der bunk ]

See Yah...PayPunks. No Pal o mine. They wont miss us as firearm transactions were a very small % of their dealings...oh well.

MORE CONFUSION!!

Even they don't know what they're doing. More messages to the crufflers:
**********************
Below is their reply to my angry message cancelling my account.

Now they say the policy only applies to PayPal Shops? WTF?

later,
b

Dear B,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

I apologize for the confusion. PayPal does not prohibit the selling of
firearms. This policy only applies to the PayPal Shops feature, a form
of advertising provided by PayPal. The PayPal Shops feature has a
separate User Agreement.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.

Sincerely,
Justin
PayPal Finance Department

******************

Then:

"Dear G,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

Let me clarify. PayPal members will not be able to use the service to
conduct transactions that have to do with firearms.

Acceptable Use Policy

Notice Date: March 13, 2003
Effective Date: March 13, 2003

PayPal has added an Acceptable Use Policy to the User Agreement to further
clarify items which may be sold using PayPal, and items which may be sold
or advertised on websites listed in the PayPal Shops directory. PayPal
customers are ultimately responsible for making sure that the transactions
they enter into using PayPal are legal. While the Acceptable Use Policy is
primarily a clarification of existing PayPal policies, in our attempt to
find the right balance between serving the needs of our diverse customer
base while at the same time minimizing our financial risks, it was
necessary to introduce some additional limitations on the use of PayPal.
The Acceptable Use Policy will replace the PayPal Shops Allowable Goods and
Services Guidebook.

The Acceptable Use Policy below will take immediate effect for all accounts
who sign up on or after March 13, 2003. All accounts who signed up prior to
March 13, 2003 will have 60 days to comply with any new terms and
conditions in the Acceptable Use Policy below. These accounts must continue
to abide by the previous terms of the PayPal User Agreement and associated
Policies during the 120-day grace period. As always, there will be no grace
period for compliance with regard to any activity that is believed to be
illegal.

Please click on the following link to learn more:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.

Sincerely,
Todd
Business Development
PayPal, an eBay company"

***********************

But:

Folks:

I sensed a misunderstanding in the interpretation of the PayPal policy
and asked a very specific
question. That is: Does PayPal allow payment of firearms auctions for
post 1898 C&R firearms conducted on other auction sites such as
GunBroker or Auction Arms using the PayPal system of Funds Transfer. The
answer below is quite clearly in the affirmative.

I find this important since a secure electronic means of funds transfer
is often very convenient (to me).

Now as to the reluctance of eBay (PayPal is now a creature of eBay) to
allow the auction of post 1898 C&R firearms, The management are clearly
a bunch of horses asses. I have politely told them so and pointed out
how much legitimate business they loose as a result. They may or may not
pay attention. The PayPal shop feature is clearly a separate function
from the fund transfer business. I frankly rarely pay any attention to
it. I suspect that there is an issue of oversight and liability that
makes them reluctant to allow post 1898 iron in the shops.

I also suspect the banking laws prohibit them from messing in fund
transfer transactions.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: CompanyInformation:UserAgreement:22:383
(KMM27856668V68807L0KM)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 22:28:24 -0800
From: "webform@paypal.com" <webform@paypal.com>
Reply-To: "webform@paypal.com" <webform@paypal.com>
To: R

Dear R,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

PayPal does not prohibit the selling of firearms. This policy only
applies to the PayPal Shops feature, a form of advertising provided by
PayPal. The PayPal Shops feature has a separate User Agreement.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.

Sincerely,
Thu-Ha
PayPal Customer Service
**********************

And finally:

Dear C,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

Thank you for expressing your concern in regard to PayPal's policies.
We value your comments and concerns.

In addition, we're sorry to hear you're thinking about closing your
PayPal Account. We value you as a customer, and we ask that you
carefully consider your decision. If you think there is a chance you
may want to use our service in the future, it is not necessary to close
your account. You're welcome to use your account as much or as little
as you wish.

If you opt to close your account, please remove any financial
information prior to closing the account. This information can be
removed through the 'Profile' subtab. To close your PayPal Account:

Click https://www.paypal.com/wf/f=ap_close or copy and paste the entire
link into the address bar, and follow the instructions.

Note: Any pending money requests will automatically be canceled once
the account is closed.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.

Sincerely,

Dave
Executive Escalations Department
************************

At least the matter has been "escalated" to the executive level.

Lou

Folks engaged in banking and finance should have a better grasp of this than I do, but I learned today that financial institutions are held liable for the actions of those using their services, so it is not just Pay Pal who is responsible for the firearm related policies.

I learned a new term today, vetting. It is the term used to describe the process banks and credit card companies go through to check your background before issuing credit cards, etc.

If Pay Pal does not at least exercise "due diligence" by excluding certain activities they cannot oversee adequately, they at least create something of a firewall between them and the potential illegal use of their services.

BTW, I had a problem with Pay Pal today that was handled very well, with excellent security.

Mike

[ 03-19-2003, 12:36: Message edited by: Mike Bellm ]

This sounds like exactly what is now a consequence of these bogus gun lawsuits currently being persued wherein the distributors and sellers are being sued along with the manufacturer.

I'm waiting for Mastercard or Visa to step in and start the same policy.

Regards

bowhunter.....
I am told that Pay Pal has super security and would be curious to know how you got hacked. From what I know, it would have to have been someone pretty close to you who knew your affairs. I can think of one way I can be hacked, but I would know where to look right away, and it would have nothing to do with Pay Pal's system.

I looked at Pay Pal for a long time before taking a chance on it, but right off the bat decided to exercise risk management and opened a separate bank account tied to Pay Pal to be "verified." I never leave enough funds available to worry about, so hackers, hack away.

My point is that I do not expect Pay Pal to do it all and took my own precautions. I have far more confidence in Pay Pal today after the length of good service I have had with them, but always keep an ear to the ground anyway.

If there is a better way to go processing credit card sales online via the store, I am open. What did you find for an alternative?

I have not had a regular merchants charge card account for many years after being ripped off by Norwest Bank who charged back sales inspite of customers receiving goods, signed for via UPS, and no contest about quality etc. with the customer..... who simply said, I am not going to pay for it. This happened several times, and it was with great reluctance that I even got the Pay Pal account in the first place because of previous experiences with regular charge cards accounts.

My point is that there is no panacea and there is always some risk. The question is how much you want to take and how much effort does it take to control your risk exposure...... which, I think also sums up Pay Pal's prohibited items list. These items carry some risk to them which they either cannot or do not want to manage.

Do let me know what you have found as alternatives. I do not have time or experience enough to search it out myself.

Others no doubt are interested also. Like I said, if something restricts my rights more than I am comfortable with, I will move on.

Mike

After seeing some replies to my original post, I sent PayPal an e-mail asking for clarification and gave them a synopsis of this string (even gave them the link to here to read it for themselves). Seems their story (for the time being) is in favor of allowing sales by private folks. Asked to have it verified by a senior executive, don't know that I'll ever get that answer, but here's what they sent me.

----- Original Message -----
From: <webform@paypal.com>
To: "William Hughes"
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: CompanyInformation:UserAgreement:22:383 (KMM27895943V49721L0KM)

Dear William,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

Sorry for any confusion.

PayPal does not prohibit the selling of firearms. This policy only
applies to the PayPal Shops feature, a form of advertising provided by
PayPal. The PayPal Shops feature has a separate User Agreement.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.

Sincerely,
Kimberly
PayPal Customer Service