If you have purchased your frame used, please read on.

According to the law, if your frame was shipped from the factory as a rifle and is now assembled as a pistol you are now in possession of a unlicensed short barreled rifle which is a felony!!

*How many of you knew this?
*Have you attempted to determine your frames status??
*Has the ATF contacted you regarding your used frame?
*Are you are concerned by this?
*Did you know that possession of a butt stock without a barrel of 16" or greater length is also a violation?

So many things to be paranoid over, so lil time....

[ 02-12-2003, 10:04: Message edited by: MSSmagnum ]

Gee thanks,like I didn't have enough to worry about

I have three that started out as poitols and one that was purchased as a stand alone and I'll never tell how it was setup the very first time.

AIN'T SKEERED !

Ya When I start using my contender to rob gas stations I'll make sure its a legal one, as long as I'm just out punching paper and minding my own business I aint worried about it.

I would think they could find something better for them boys to do then nitpick on T/C owners.

Not worried a bit about that.....but a dirty bomb upwind of DC...that concerns me.

HMMM..I wonder if ol' bin Laden has a T/C?

Probably not eh? That would explain why he's so grumpy all the time

Paranoid?????

Well, let's see.......

I carry a concealed handgun every day but I've never had to shoot anyone with it......some would call that paranoid....

I wear a seatbelt when I ride in a car, even though I've never been injured in a vehicle accident......some people would call that paranoid.....

I look both ways when I cross a busy street, even though I've never been run over by a car...... some people would call that paranoid.....

I always check to see if a firearm is loaded, even if the person handing it to me has just done so.......some would call that paranoid.......

I keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to fire, even though I've never had a safety fail.......some would call that paranoid.....

I double check my powder charges before seating a bullet, even though I've never blown up a gun with bad reloads.....some would call that paranoid.....

etc.....etc....etc......

I don't assemble or possess illegal firearms and I advise others against doing so, even though the Jack Booted Thugs have never kicked down my door.....some call that paranoid.......

.....................your call....................

Weird...

It would seem to me that as long as you don't have your Contender assembled with a buttstock with a less than 16 inch barrel it shouldn't make a hill of beans what it started as.

But that is about as logical as some other of the dumbass laws they throw at us. If that is all I have to be scared of I'm OK.

If you purchased the gun as a pistol even though it was built as a carbine- wouldn't the paperwork at time of purchase clear you. Here in MI we have to get pistol purchase permits and then take the pistol back in for "safety inspection" which is really registration.

Ken

The answer to your question is NO. A dealer cannot change the legal status of a frame. A rifle is a rifle no matter how the dealer lists it on the yellow sheet when you buy it.

I really don't give a shit how it left the factory. I bought all of them as handguns. I filled out those 2 forms and told the truth and passed the background check. I was not the one that said it was a handgun. My dealers filled in that part

I agree with Jules. When I bought My 209x50 Encore 2 years ago, I had the guy at the gunshop register it as a handgun (frame serial #) right off the bat, in case I wanted to use the frame with a handgun barrel. Smart move on my part. But with the "addiction" I find myself getting a frame for each barrel!!!! I hate changing over barrels. Jeff

paranoia breeds paranoia

stupidity breeds stupidity

Hey Mike

Look at the top of the very first post in this thread and see who started this one.......I believe it was YOU! You complain about this subject being beaten to death and then YOU start another thread on the same subject........

Here's a question for those who have stated that their dealer yellow sheeted the firearm as a pistol and so you think you don't have anything to worry about.........

Would you feel the same way if your dealer chopped the barrel on a Remington Model 7 rifle, put it in an XP-100 stock, listed it on the yellow sheet and sold it to you as an XP?

What is the difference??????

Mike,

While I'm a little tired of rehashing this every so often, I do have one concern. In VA we have a one handgun a month law. If they ever find out that the carbine I bought was really a pistol at some time and I bought it just 29 days (not 30) after I bought my Tok...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GonHuntin:
[QB]Here's a question for those who have stated that their dealer yellow sheeted the firearm as a pistol and so you think you don't have anything to worry about.........

Would you feel the same way if your dealer chopped the barrel on a Remington Model 7 rifle, put it in an XP-100 stock, listed it on the yellow sheet and sold it to you as an XP?

Only if he did a good crown on the chopped off barrel

Happens every time DOOM and GLOOM of Pistol?conversion laws.
What a bunch of BSSSSSSSSSSSS over what MIGHT happen if the law is checking you out because your wife is missing and you just had the Affair with the blonde.

Stinks like the cesspool again.
The guy was asking about recoil

Even the ATF is smart enuff to know this could happen with a switch barrel firearm. If a large single shot pistol was a big concern to them don't you think we would all have had our front doors kicked in by now, or at least a letter in the mail? I guess it's just not a big concern to them so it sure is no concern to me.

Uhhhh..... Methinks that TC is the manufacturer and they have reported them all to ATF (registered) when they were first manufactured as pistols and it don't make a hill of beans what the yellow sheets or we say after that....

They're ALL pistols... That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.... <evil grin>

Put that in your pipe and smoke it....

$bob$

Well Boys, I am sitting here taking the grips and forearms off of my Contenders. I am going to scrap all my Contender stuff, barrels and all as I don't know if some of the barrels may have been a rifle at one time and were cut down to a handgun length.
As for the frames I couldn't tell you if the were rifles, carbines, or handgun form. They all look the same to me when the are "naked" . I guess I can just burn the wood and leave no "evidence"> I hate to recycle the steel as it might end up in a foreign car. Besides, I would imagine that the feds will be on the prowl at all the recycle centers for the next few days to see if there are any "illegal" metal parts going in to the heap.

Damn, just cut another carbine barrel in half, funny that looks like the same crown job TC put on a couple I used to have. I sure hope I don't cut these off to short for tent pegs.

Did I ever tell you the story about the little boy who cried "wolf"?
WELL DON'T!!!!!

There are several here that are "paranoid" should sprout a "pair of nads". Maybe a proctologist visit would determine a "problem" of some type?

What will be next? CROSSBOWS I suppose? Or the fabeled thread on MK bullets for hunting????
Jeshhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

From the land of "AH's". Just click your heels together "Dorthy" and "TOTO" and the wicked witch of the west shall not bother you.

Any one know how to get a hold of "Fred Sanford" aka "Sanford & Sons"?

BTW, the names of the above have been changed to protect the inocent

That why you buy the frame only and buy barrels later when I sale a Contender I list frame only this is the only part that you have to put down on paper you do not have to list caliber or what kind of gun it is. there is not a thing they can do about this.

Each of my Encore frames are registered as handguns on my NYS permit. No one has kicked my door in yet, so I guess I won't worry about it.
(if I do decide to knock over a 7-11,I'll make sure its the leagle one!!!)
Rick

Jules,

I see your from VA Beach but it is highly unlikely that you ever visited this guy's shop in Rawley Springs, west of Harrisonburg just off US 33. He's out of business now and his sheets have gone to WV for entry in the illegal registry.

The gun came to me as a carbine, with stock and 21" .223 Rem barrel (and I was ignorant of all to the contrary at the time). $bob$ apparently has it right about the Contender, but the G2s will be one or the other. This will be necessary because if they are pistols they have to go through drop tests and TC won't pay for the drop tests (apparently this is the company policy). So, if you live in a state that allows it, get the G2 as a pistol (if they are ever produced). That is my intention.

The truth of it is, while you don't intentionally do anything to expose yourself to risk, you don't risk anything UNLESS you are breaking another law. If "they" want to get you "they" will use anything they can think of. Having been exposed to bureaucrats world wide, I don't think it is in my best interests to go walking into the nearest ATF office and beg for an opinion.

A mistake that I almost made was in a deal I did with a friend for 2 barrels. I thought he already had the barrels, but he didn't and was working a deal with somebody else for the barrels NIB. So he shows up with the barrels and they are 14" but I don't have a pistol grip! So I send him off waiting for the return of my trading material and a week later end up with a new .30-30 and .22 LR Match, both 21".

I just knew that the "thugs" were tracking me. However, I had at the time, an ATF agent working in the same NG unit with which I was associated. Going round about, I posed the question to him. His response, paraphrased, was: Crap! We're trying to get crooked dealers, smugglers, and dopers. I've got more problems with cigarettes, than guns.

Now, there may be agents in the forums and that's fine but it is my observance with every type of LEO that you have people who are just trying to do their duty or be the best that they can be and then you have the career chasers. This is just like every other profession. It is the later that will be the boil on your butt.

Since this is turning into a rant I'm just going to leave the topic.

actually owning the parts is not a problem, it is only if you assemble the rifle stock with a barrel under 16" that you create a regulated firearm. Two web site to read the court case that allows this are:
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-0164.ZO.html

but the summary is quoted below, and the second to last line says it all:
On January 13, 1992, Stephen P. Halbrook argued in the Supreme Court of the United States on behalf of Thompson/Center Arms Company concerning whether certain pistol and rifle components constituted a short-barreled rifle subject to the registration and taxation requirements of the National Firearms Act, Chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code. The Court rendered a favorable decision, holding that the Act provided criminal penalties and thus due process required that the Act must be construed narrowly according to the rule of lenity. Consquently, the components were not subject to the Act. The opinion, United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505 (1992), follows below

Helicopter Bill

Bill

That court case had absolutely nothing to do with converting contenders (or encores) that were shipped from the factory as complete rifles.....the case only decided the legality of using the "carbine kit" on contender handguns........

HUGE DIFFERENCE!!.

jsh - stop cutting, I'll buy your stuff

I'm not worried about the legalities of my handguns - it's when my door gets "broken down" and they see the reloading room!!

I can just hear it now - Why do you have so many rounds of live ammo? Do you use all that powder, all those bullets, and all that brass in a year?

Certainly TC could make all contenders and encores as pistols.......unfortunately, they clearly do not! If they were all pistols, then no one under the age of 21 could buy one.....this is clearly NOT the case! While some states may require pistol permits for all contenders/encores regardless of configuration (rifle or handgun), most do not have that requirement. If they were all handguns, then, according to federal law, they would all be sold within the restrictions of handgun sales.

For example:

I can cross the state line, walk into Bass Pro Shop or Cabelas, and buy an Encore rifle. If they were all legally handguns as you say, that would not be possible because, under federal law, handguns cannot be sold to non-residents.

Furthermore, my father, who is a Missouri resident, can walk in to Bass Pro and purchase an Encore rifle.......if they were all handguns, he would be required to first obtain a pistol purchase permit from the sheriff in his county before he could buy one....again, this is NOT the case......

Ask Sean (he is a licensed dealer)how Encore rifles are papered when he receives them from a distributor.......he will tell you the paperwork he receives lists them as rifles and they are entered into his FFL records as rifles.......that alone should convince you that they aren't all handguns!!!

If, they really were all handguns, please explain how TC can report to the BATF that all Encores are legally handguns, yet ship them to distributors papered as rifles? Does their legal status just magically change in transit from TC to the distributor? Somehow, I don't think so...

[ 02-15-2003, 00:46: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

MSSmagnum you say "According to the law" I'd like to know what statute or case history you're quoting. I've got a legal beagle friend that I could probably get to review it.

But from the whole history of the case as posted at: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_tcenter_br1.txt

Any rifle or shotgun barrel is capable of being readily made into a short-barrel NFA firearm with a hacksaw. A 21" Contender carbine barrel can be cut off in 25 seconds with a common hacksaw.
(C.A. App. 103-104.) Moreover, a complete Contender pistol and a complete Contender carbine are capable of having parts exchanged to make an NFA firearm, but BATF concedes that these items do not constitute a short barrel rifle. (Pet. App. 3a, 21a.)

ALSO:"The possession of a complete rifle and a complete pistol is not within the scope of the NFA unless components of the weapons are actually assembled as a firearm, such as a short-
barreled rifle, that is covered by the NFA." (C.A. App. 100, 43;Pet. App. 3a, 21a.)

in a letter to T/C prior to the court case the BATF director wrote, "In view of the interchangeable barrel capabilities of your Contender action, we believe that it would be in the public interest for you to include a cautionary statement with each firearm. This statement would serve to advise the purchaser that any reduction of the barrel length of the
carbine barrel with one of your pistol barrels or otherwise, or the reduction of the overall length of the weapon to less than 26 inches would constitute the making of a firearm within the purview of Section 5845 (a) of the National Firearms Act. (C.A. App. 31-32.)

Helicopter Bill

Bill

Time out......

You need to understand one thing about the TC Supreme Court case.......

It ONLY decided the legallity of converting contender HANDGUNS into carbines through the use of the "carbine kit". It did not address the issue of converting firearms that left the factory in RIFLE configuration.....at the time the case was first filed, TC DID NOT offer complete contender rifles......