Need help deciding on a new Contender barrel. I have decided I "need" a .25 caliber Contender barrel as I have not shot any yet and "they are there". I am thinking of a light carbine around 18-22" barrel, full bull contour, but caliber is the question. Was looking at SSK 257 JDJ, but prices just went way up and I can't justify that cost. There are not many calibers out there that will not require +100.00 in dies and hard to find or expensive brass. Was thinking of 250 Savage or 250 Improved. Not many will chamber for that in a Contender and need to know why, except for the possibility of too much pressure and for the setback of the tapered case. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Do not own an Encore, which would make the range of calibers much greater, but do not really want that heavy of a gun. Thanks.

bchan7,
I used to own an SSK 250 Savage Imp. Loved it. Traded it off like a dummy. For the new one I'd like something formed from a 30-30. Like the 6mm Bullberry imp., but in 25 cal.
Virgin Valley is supposed to make up some 25's soon. When they do, I'll have one. Then I want a 17 Mach IV carbine and all will be right with the world.
T.D.

I think the 250 savage is fine in a contender as long as you stay within the max pressure limits. I think the reason for custom makers not doing the 250 savage in the contender is that factory loads exceed max safe pressures for a contender frame. So this would have to be a reload version only.
I have the 250imp. based on the 307win. case that Mike Bellm done for me. The 307 brass in much thicker then the savage brass an makes it possible for this round to be safe for a contender. But you still have to know your limits and never use load data worked up for a bolt action rifle.
I don't think Mike is taking on any custom work at this time but he would most likely answer your questions on this take.

Dave Van Horn "was" doing the 250 savage for the contender but I think he's having a few problems as of late.
Mbmco is now making custom barrels but I don't know if he'll chamber a 250 in a contender or not. He comes to this forum often and you could ask him.
Most of the other custom guys are doing 25s based on the 30-30win. case. But you will need the custom dies at 70 to 100 bucks a set.

If you don't need alot of power the 25-35 Win is a good option, dies aren't that much and brass is available.
Wes

Might want to check this one out! I don't know anything about it, just passing along the info.

250 contender

I like the 257tcu. I have one in a 12 inch custom from Fox Ridge and can easily reach 2600 fps with 75 gr H.P. and 2500 with 85 gr.s and 2300 with 100 gr BT. This combo will easily hit one gallon jugs out to 300. I am waiting for a Fox Ridge 21 in carbine barrel that I ordered as my first carbine barrel after 30+ years of T/C handgun shooting. I am hoping for 3000 fps from the 75's in the carbine length. I think it will out perform the .223 with 55's at the longer ranges. Brass is easy and cheap and the dies were about 100 bucks from Redding. The JDJ round is just a little more powerful but brass is more expensive and the dies from SSK are a bit more costly also. J.D. just raised his prices on barrels and they are at least twice the cost of my barrel. shortgun

Morning Guys,

I guess I could step in here and agree w/ Jules and add some other info.

Mike had told me a few months back, he was waiting to do some 250Imps.He also may add some input and/or reply, he's great guy and looking forward to another meet, at some point time.

The 250Imp. is one of my favorites, and on the Bowers Rest System it is amazing, the computer and me are not friendly or I'd add a picture, but you can go to www.lrhasite.com and click on Clinic to see the results at 400 yds.w/250 factory ammo.+ there are witnesses to this. The pig with the group of 5 shots are with Bellm's Rechamber and using the Custom Shop BBL. in 16.25", also using Bowers Rest System.This chrono's w/the CED around 2675-2682,all the time.
not bad for factory loads, plus using the 307 worked brass and very delicate loads can reach 2950.

If some are interested and Mike is willing we can get a group thing going if no one is a hurry, just set back relax,wait and wish till there done,lol. Ask Mike, I never really bothered him. With that in mind he may conceed and be willing, he will have to input on that and make the call as to how many. I can help keep the cost down as far as dies go and brass. If anyone is interested. We can Fox Ridge, or Custom barrels, whatever.
Lets see what turns out, its fun and a challenge to get what you like, specially one that shoots.

shortgun

257 JDJ dies cost $68 at SSK (just checked the website).......how is that more expensive than your $100 Redding 257 TCU dies????

I have a 257 JDJ, a 250 Savage Competitor and would like to own a 25 TCU someday.........

Gonhuntin

I just ordered a set of dies from J.D. this past friday..he charged me 119.95 plus shipping....the redding dies I spoke of actually cost me 94 bucks shipped to the door last April. I just assumed all JDJ dies were about the same cost. I have no exact knowledge of all their prices. The .257 JDJ is an excellent contender round but as a whole it is a LITTLE more expensive to get into than some other 25 cal rounds. I have several other JDJ barrels and I like them all. When ya want it bad enough the cost means little. JDJ quality is worth the money most of the time. My .257tcu barrel cost me 160 bucks new in the box and the dies at 94 bucks made the package total less than just the barrel from SSK. Sometimes ya gotta go with a bargin. shortgun

shortgun

Don't blame you one bit for going with the "bargain"......I bought my 257 JDJ as a complete used pistol (like new) with all the goodies including a 3X9 Burris scope.....paid slightly more than what the barrel and mount cost new!

I own 4 SSK barrels and one SSK rechamber, all were bought used.......used is good!!!

I have made a fair number of standard .250 Savage barrels in the past, and it is another one of those marginal rounds.

Its 45,000 psi pressure is NOT too hot for the Contender, but other contributing factors undermine it for Contender use.

The problem with .250 Savage is two fold. One of course is the taper of the case, which is quite severe.

The other is the thinness of the standard brass. Even when used in the imp chamber with its straight side walls, the standard .250 Sav. brass DOES limit the chamber, noticeably.

Case in point, my unofficial "test lab" in Missouri, by bud Howard, got a .250 Imp. barrel I had eartagged for myself about 4 years ago. I had set it up to accept the .307 Win. or .444 Marlin rim counterbore, but he persisted in using rimless brass. Performance was ok, but "lackluster." It didn't warm the cockles of his heart.

I finally "prevailed" upon him by supplying him with a batch of reformed .307 Win. cases. Bottom line is that it made a tremendous difference in performance and really caught his attention. I do not have the hard chrono numbers to pass on. Sorry.

In his case, what lights his fire for long range coyote and groundhog use, talking 400 yards plus mind you from an 18" Contender barrel which is his favorite length, is the 6mm Bellm which has the shoulder set back some to a 40 degree shoulder and longer neck than the 6mm JDJ. This is still his favorite of all, shooting 55 gr. bullets. The .250 Imp. takes a close second in his order of preferences. However, the .250 Imp. of course handles heavier bullets and is a bit more versatile.

As a gratuity for the excellent help 1buba has been in pulling my bacon out of the fire with my website, while he was here he witnessed the chambering of and did the test firing of the .250 Imp. 20" barrel I made for him. And since that rascal Jules got my last hunting barrel, the .308 Bellm, I chambered a 20" .250 Imp. for myself while I had everything out to do 1buba's barrel.
Both of these barrels are 1-12" twist, with a maximum of 90 gr. bullets in view.

The .250 will of course handle all of the .25 cal. bullets, but in the Contender, you need speed to keep the trajectory flatter and the bullet expansion up. I feel it is often, not always, a mistake to use bullets over 90 gr. Thus, for my purposes and to my way of thinking, the 1-12" twist is probably optimum.

Howard's barrel is 1-14" and handles only up through 75 gr. bullets, which he says does a fine job on deer with lung shots.

Die costs. Lock, Stock, and Barrel sells the .250 Imp. Redding dies for about $54 as I recall.

Redding is more generous with size die dimensions than I like much of the time, but when shifting to the slightly larger .307 or .444 brass, the Redding dies are pretty close to perfect. Paul can shed some light on this also since his dies are Redding as I recall.

I have had several .250 Savage barrels in the past that I shot myself, plus I worked with an Imp. I did for a friend back in 98/99. Inspite of reason and good advice to the contrary, there is always a % that get the bit in their teeth and run with things that have inherent problems. So there will continue to be those who have to learn for themselves and continue chambering for all the .219 Zippers, .25/35s (sorry, Wes), .30/40 Krags, and .250 Savages. All are useable, all are great in their own right, all are nostalgic, BUT all are less than what gives optimum performance AND function.

Working cases down to .250 Imp. is easier than I had first thought. All you need to do is shorten a 7mm/08 Rem. size die to work down .307 Wins. With .444s, which work well also, you will need at least a standard .308 Win. size die.

I have extensive .250 Imp. data done by Blaine Eddy back in the 80s from a 20" barrel that I have entered to a Front Page file. I thought I had published it to the website before I screwed the site up, but 1buba hasn't found it if I did. I may have it somewhere.

Bottom line is that you can go up over standard .250 data some, but not much, a couple grains only. I just about "overshot the field" test firing Jule's barrel. The .307 brass handles pressures so well that it fooled me into going up a bit too hot. Basic rule is to use standard .250 Savage data in the imp. case, then judiciously up it. When you start to see the faint imprint of the rimfire firing pin hole in the breech face on the extreme edge of the primer, back off the throttle. You are at the "fringe." And always, the first hint of hard opening indicates the case is setting back hard against the breech face..... back off. Sticky extraction is not a good indicator unless the chamber is pretty rough inside.

Some utilize a rough chamber to minimize set back, but in my opinion, this is a pretty shoddy way to do things.

I know it is hard to grasp, BUT I must not take on more committments than I can be sure to meet. So I will not commit to making barrels on a custom order basis.... not a group order even. So rule that out. It was difficult enough fulfilling my committment to CNC Cartridge by supplying them with barrels this past fall/winter. And when there are still a few with custom work jobs here waiting and wondering why the heck I am making barrels for CNC, it makes it more difficult to explain. But that IS the situation. The work with CNC started back in 98/99 and predated all the custom work. Plus, there is a significant investment in dies and tooling making the .30 Bellm project viable. As much as I hated to do it, I simply had to put the custom work on the back burner.

I am back into the custom jobs. I chambered a .223 Rem. Imp. late Sunday afternoon and will test fire it today, matter of fact. No new work will be taken until the last of the old jobs is gone, period.

I will be making .25s, yes, and I intend to get set up with Redding as a dealer sometime this year. One goal is to supply the .250 Imp. FL dies with the neck bushings. I also want to get dies run for my .22 Bellm and 6mm Bellm rounds based on .225 Win. cases.

Without naming names, one of you asked me to do a quantity of barrels awhile back, and as you recall, when a delivery time was asked for, I would give none. And I won't. After 24 years of missing delivery dates and pissn' people off, including some who I thought were my best friends, I have decided there is simply no % in it. If I don't make a committment, then you will have to find something else to offend you. That is one way to dodge it when the best of intentions doesn't work.

As many of you know, personal life is tenuous here from one day to the next. This morning was near a crisis point. I cannot and will not take custom orders. Let me do my thing, feel warm and fuzzy about what I do, then wait until it makes it to the store. Subscribe to my Newsletter, and you will have first dibs on things as they become available.

So.... there is chapter and verse of Bellm for the day.

.250 Imp.... yep. Oustanding round, quite practical in the Contender. Very accurate (all rounds are when chambered right and good bullets are available for a given cal.) Very light recoil. Good trajectory for significantly long range varmint shooting and deer out to about 250 to 300 yards, depending on shot placement, which is quite easy to do with a gun that does not knock the slobber outa yer mouth when ya pull the trigger.

Putting my money where my mouth is, it was my choice for my personal hunting barrel, one I have been lusting for for a number of years..... and I can make anything I want. 'Nuff said?

Mike

Mike -
Looking forward to spending some time with the new barrel. Can't thank you enough. This will be my first attempt at really ringing out a barrel. I'll even break out the low mileage Oehler. :-)

That said I'd like to add a little to what Mike said above. After two trips to THE SHOP in the last 6 months or so, I've learned a few things about Mike as a man. Mike, hope I don't upset you here. First, Mike is completely devoted to Dee. I tried to take them out several times while I was there and was turned down by Mike because Dee wasn't feeling well and he didn't want to leave her. One morning Tim and I started probing his mind a little early and got him side tracked, end result was that he forgot to ask Dee if she wanted breakfast. He was crushed. Tim and I still gave him a hard time, but he felt genuinely bad. He is a gentleman - and attempts to treat Dee like the queen she is.

Second, Mike is honest and a man of character (and yes, IS a character). Mike could pull in some good cash right now by accepting a bunch of orders with cash coming in up front. He won't do it because he knows of the possible pitfalls. He made a few mistakes early on as a young man. He is determined to not make them again.

Sooooo, sign up for the newsletter - I think you will start seeing some barrels there as time permits him. Next, start watching some of the "young blood." :-) I know Tim Ryan is on his way to stardom, as is Mike (MBMCo).

Anyway - enough rambling. Let's all go out and shoot something. :-)

steve

I own a 14" 257-JDJ from SSK and a 18" 25-225 improved from Van Horn (They are the identical caliber). Both are one holers. I can recommend either one.

I have a 15" 25 Bullberry, thats a necked down 30-30, not Improved. Its simple to make and is deadly accurate. Powder charge is close to the 250 and a little more than the 257 JDJ (according to JD's load sheet. I love it with Sierra 75's and 87's.

Looking at dimensional drawings of the .25-35 Winchester (I have a 21" barrel) and the .25 Bullberry, there are slight differences resulting in perhaps a 5 grain capacity gain. Is this true? Does anyone have good performance figures for the .25 Bullberry? Could a .25-35 be rechambered? Is it worth doing (in your opinion)?

I haven't shot mine much but recoil is light. I can see the 87 gr. bullets or the 100 gr. BTs being a good all-around bullet.

1bubba,
Thanks for the support..... read almost like a eulogy though.

But you are on track. The online store has permitted a shift in approach that meets all needs here while being a big asset to others as well. A win/win. Meanwhile, I work off the last of the backlog, work toward making barrels, and remain independent enough to help guys like you, Tim, and others get your feet wet.

Question, rather, two questions.

One, you went through the process of doing the .22 Mag chamber yourself and saw the results with the borescope. Was that so hard and mysterious?

Two, if you had your lathe set up and running and the two reamers in hand, is there any reason why you could not duplicate it on your own now?

Make that three questions. You watched the process of chambering your .250 Imp. Would it take much more to get up to speed on that chamber also?

Mike

Verno, Old Fart, & Hobie,
The .225 Win case is one of the very best cases for use in the Contender, but the down side is the limited availability and cost of dies for wildcats based on this case.

.30/30 brass is cheap and easy to come by, but not very consistent, especially in rim thicknesses. They vary all over creation. But, like with the .250 Savage brass I referred to above, the .30/30 cases are too thin and will limit what you can do with any round based on them. There is a difference.

You can ignore the facts, use the thinner brass, and have a good time ok, but there are better routes to go.

If rechambering a .25/35 or .25 Bullberry, might as well go all the way to the .25/35 Imp., aka, .25x.30/30 Imp. So far as the brass will let it, this case comes pretty close to duplicating the .250 Savage, but with its straighter chamber puts less thrust back on the frame. It just works better.

We usually tend to put the cart before the horse by picking a chamber by name instead of all its real attributes, and also by not getting dies in hand first before pursuing a chamber. Coordinating chamber dimensions via the guy cutting the chamber, NOT drawings, with die dimensions also helps.

Mike

Lots of great information, and lots of options too. What can I say, too many calibers, too little time. Will have to mull all this information over for a while.

Thanks, and keep the info coming as it looks like there is a lot of interest here on the 25's.

Mike,

I got the .25-35 Winchester from Ron Sable (RJ's Guns) . Since I collect barrels (now to 21) with the intent of pursuing my interest in the old cartridges as well as some new (the Contenders allowing relatively affordable barrel changes) as opposed to the maximum effort in the minimum package this doesn't bother me.

However, you've got me sold on the .250 Imp on the .444 or .307 case. I personally prefer the 22" barrel length, bull configuration, blue, Weaver mount. Now, let's see, I guess what you're telling us is that we need to go to Mike Sirois (MBMCO) for such a barrel...

You know of course that all this talk is going to cost me some real money... (.250 Imp, .358 Bellm, .32-20 )

Am thinking at this point that the 250 Savage Improved is the way to go, in a 20-22" bull barrel, dies are available, as well as 250 and 307 brass. The question of who will do the barrel/chamber is the problem now. Don't want to wait til my next lifetime to get it done.

Appreciate the offer of 25 Bullberry dies, but would like to see more info on that caliber and probably would be more interested in the 25 Bullberry Improved. I see the ballistics on Fred's site, but know very little of anyone's experiences with them. Anyone out there have or have had the Improved version?

Am even considering the Encore as 250 Improved chambering is no problem for any of the makers. Just did not want to go to the larger format frame/stock configuration.

Still thinking, I appreciate all the input. Thanks

Perhaps you have noted that realizing my position in life, I am working toward helping others get started in barrel work.

Tim and Steve, for example, have watched me cut two .250 Imp. chambers, and have a "leg up" on doing it. Plus, they know they can tap me for coaching along the way.

We need more folks in the trade, not just doing barrel work, but doing it BETTER than most of what we see now, and at a more sane price than some are charging.

Last night I was told that Don Bower is now charging $150 for just a chamber job! No further comment.


Mike