Looks like someone is mad at Mike again

posted

Well in defense od GB. Mike Bellm is right about the chabers and throats........BUT most guns are made this way...it is NOT that the chamber TC makes isbador are Worse than others...it is that MIKE being the perfectionist.he is likes BETTER. And that is what we strive for BETTER. I feel tha just bashing a TC barrel to a newbie is CRAP. A factory barrel WILL in most cases be a Excellent hunting barrel for most hunters. Most will shoot 1" or maybe 1.5 at 100. Now that IS good enough for most hunting. TC makes a Great product. Mike and some others have found a way to IMPROVE on it Good for us. But we DO NOT NEED a perfcect thraot to kill a deer.
All of this does NOT make a factory barrel a BAD barrel.......Now as for his dislike for bellm??
Think Mike has got his goat.

Fireball [Razz]

posted

I'm sure my post over there won't stay up long. I'm sure my name has been put on the "rabid fan" list though.

contender85

one of us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher:
I'm sure my post over there won't stay up long. I'm sure my name has been put on the "rabid fan" list though.

You wont be alone Fisher, I'll be on that list as well.........Just in case the "Big" man deletes it before anybody sees it, here's my reply to Graybeards post;

Poster Topic: RE: TC .30-30 accuracy.....Way to go Graybeard.......

Ban the man from your forums, then beat the crap out of him every chance you get.........Shame on You!
Mark

What a childish Coward he is!

Posts: 414 | Location: Western NC | Registered: 07 April 2002

Ignored post by contender85 posted

posted

True to form old GB delete mine and Contender85's post at the pond. I reposted with an additional comment. Lets see how long it takes for that one to vanish.

This was my post.

quote:
That didn't take long for my post to be deleted. That just goes to show you that anyone and I mean ANYONE that disagrees with GB is wrong. I have copied my last post below. I'm sure it won't be here for long either.

-----------------------------------------

GB, it sounds to me that you need to grow up and get over your little temper tantrum about Mike. Just because you don't agree with Mike about his reasonings for rechambering a barrel doesn't mean that it isn't valid. It certainly doesn't sit well with me that you sit back and bash an individual and his profession when you aren't even capable of doing the work yourself. I don't hear you bashing SSK and there rechamber work. Oh that's right. They pay your advertising fees so they must be all right.

The truth is that T/C is notorious for having poor or long throats in there chambers. That certainly doesn't mean they won't shoot well. It just means that there is room for improvement. Mike as well as others are in the business of improving accuracy in your contender or encore barrel. If your barrel shoots to your level of acceptance, then leave it alone. If you would like to improve your accuracy in your barrel then look into rechambering or maybe even a custom barrel. It's as simple as that.

one of us

posted

Fisher, God Bless You and your diplomacy. Had I responded over there, there would have been far less tact.

Fireball, I agree in part with you so far as the average factory barrel being sufficient for most people, and you may be right about presenting factory barrels to a newbie the way I do. In the alternative, let him "pay his dues," take his losses, and learn the hard way. Hopefully he will discover there are better barrels to be had before he gets fed up with the TC system and abandons it, as I have seen happen so many times over the many years of talking to tens of thousands of shooters of all levels of ability and aptitude.

When I started shooting competitive Bullseye, a Colt Gold Cup was adequate for an entry level gun. It would outshoot most all new shooters' abilities. BUT, the more accurate the gun, the more positive the mental feedback that is crucial to learning marksmanship. My opinion is that "acceptable" accuracy results in acceptable marksmanship, but no higher.

I shot a Gold Cup for awhile, but then was fortunate enough to be issued top grade competitive guns from the Air Force Marksmanship Unit at Lackland AFB. There was no comparison. In less than a year I got to within 3 percentage points of a Master's card.

If all you want is minute of buck at 100 yards, for crying out loud, go buy an $80 surplus Mauser. British Enfields are up over $100 now I guess. Or go get an H&R Handy Rifle/NEF for under $200 for the whole damn gun, not just half the gun like TC's factory stuff. If you are going to spend the money for a supposedly better product, you deserve fair value. The cheapo military rifles were made to better standards, far better standards, than the TC barrels. Think about it. Manufacturers of the military arms had procurement boards standing over them that DEMANDED a certain level of quality and performance. SAAMI standards are looser'n a goose in comparison, and there is no one standing over TC regulating them EXCEPT YOU and YOUR PURCHASING DOLLARS. Dummies on "the board," (you the buyers) means whatever level of quality the stockholders at TC want to put out. There is no one else holding their feet to the fire.

I have been examining 10s of thousands of barrels of all kinds, commercial rifle, military, and TC factory stuff for over 23 years and can back up what I say. For some idiot to dismiss me out of hand is shear stupidity on their part when they themselves have no experience whatsoever at the level I work. It just doesn't get any dumber than that.

I still allege that touting a product as superior, but using far inferior production techniques and designs is tantamount to fraud.

Yes,I know, let the buyer beware. But if no one informs the buyer, he continues to take a raping, and it chaps my backside to see such things occur from the shadows while hiding behind an image of respectability.

In regard to GB, he wouldn't know a chamber throat if he saw one or whether a barrel even had one.

NO, I am not the only one that can cut a chamber, and hopefully what I have been writing will improve the level of quality in the barrels available from ALL sources, which will also come to some extent from YOUR level of expectation based on KNOWLEDGE. Matt is right. Knowledge IS power. Use it.

GB has never been able to keep two things straight at a time anyway, but the fact is that I am NOT soliciting rechamber work at present. It is NOT my main thrust. Due to personal constraints here at home, I am shifting to making barrels. I will take rechambers on a very limited basis, batched so far as possible in the future, but it is NOT my main purpose. It has been, yes. But it is not now and has not since the health crisis last March. GB believes what he wants to believe, and facts mean absolutely nothing, not even the facts surrounding our falling out. It is a matter of: don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up.

For me, I will do one thing for sure, and that is to further the site, further the technical content, and further all the supporting technical info I can. Anyone with an I.Q. above room temperature will see the difference on their own. If they can't, they will have fun swimming in the cesspool of ignorance...... just so they have fun.

That said, back to plugging in stuff on the online store. It should be appearing in the next few days. It won't be fully fleshed out, but it will be up and running. I will give 1buba the url to it in a few days. It will be announced here first.

BTW, there will be a section for inventory barrels in the store. Not a whole lot in it to start, but there will be some, including the braked 12" .45/70 I just blued last week. Neat barrel, big brother to Sean's 8" .44 Mag I made.

All the best...

Mike

Posts: 791 | Location: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: 30 March 2002

Ignored post by Mike Bellm posted

one of us

posted

Just had another thought.

What I wrote:
"Anyone with an I.Q. above room temperature will see the difference on their own. If they can't, they will have fun swimming in the cesspool of ignorance...... just so they have fun"

reminded me of the guys working for the city when I lived in Utah. One was telling me about having to go out in a boat in the sewage pond to change a pump. He fell out of the boat, into the sewage. He said, "All I could think of was to keep my mouth shut" while swimming in the sewage.

Good advice for the pond.

Mike

Posts: 791 | Location: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: 30 March 2002

Ignored post by Mike Bellm posted

Sean VHA #60013

one of us

posted

So sad that the big mouth of the Old Catfish must continue to hurl insults and vitriol at Mike from afar, in a pond where conveniently no one else may play likewise and the principle target may not respond.

Hey, if you can't take it back at you, do not dish it out, OR play in your own puddle and delete anything that comes back at you, yes?

It reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw that one of our ER staff has on his car. It simply reads "YOU SUCK AND THAT'S SAD." I typically do not like AD HOMINEM remarks, but it is so very applicable in this case! He has degenerated to that level of response.

ALSO, I take it as complimentary of Mike that these things happen: if he was a cook and nut, he would not draw the fire that he does. Were he so obviosly wrong as the Old Catfish would like all to think, he would be irrelevant. The fact that he is RIGHT about his craft and his observations of the industry is why he draws the fire that he does. That, and that he did not massage the posterior of the Old Catfish with high dollar banner adds.

So Mike, keep up the good work!

It says A ALOT when all it takes is some $$$$ and you may PURCHASE the "rights to be right" and have your name spoken of and exalted in certain places, and have protection enforced against any and all valid criticism.....

BTW Mike,

Now THAT story about the sewage pond is funny! Alter the picture to show the sewage vomiting forth from the big mouth of the Old Catfish, and you just about have it right [Big Grin]

[ 09-09-2002, 00:29: Message edited by: Sean HHI #7364 ]

Posts: 830 | Location: Virginia, USA | Registered: 08 March 2002

Ignored post by Sean VHA #60013 posted

posted

In the alternative, let him "pay his dues," take his losses, and learn the hard way. Hopefully he will discover there are better barrels to be had before he gets fed up with the TC system and abandons it, as I have seen happen so many times over the many years of talking to tens of thousands of shooters of all levels of ability and aptitude.

Well Mike While I really do AGREE with your Expertise on TC's and how to make them very accurate.....Most TC's are used one time a year to go deer hunting or just to plink with. MOST people who shoot do not get excited about a .500 Group(I DO) but are more impressed by being able to say SEE LOOK I hit that rock out their to his buddies. And Most of ALL most Shooter have no idea how to properly make a reload and really sight in their gun let alone be involved in the Theories and expertise to make a TARGET gun. Most guys I have hunted with could not do a .500 group with my Rem 700 Bull Barrel that ALWAYS shoots 3/8 groups....they think it is VERY Acurate because they were able to rest it at the bench and hit the 10" round plate at 200 yards.....THAT for them is AWESOME.
I just wanted you to know I am NOT arguing or Disputing your claims........Just most gun owners in general have NEVER shot a .500 group or even care to do so....they only wish to hit the deer they are aming at......Which most of the time is somewhat LESS than 100 yards...even though they claimed it a 300 Yard shot.

The last bear I shot was over 300 yards and with my 300 win mag(whinchester) laying down on my bellie to get a rest abd hold steady it Blacked my eye with the scope....Most I think would not even try this to take the shot.....And if they did would not even realize what was about to happen when the squeezed the trigger.

So as far as TC's having Poor throats and chambers..yes.....If you are a target shooter or a perfectionist...For most they are Great barrels and kill pleanty of animals.....We are the few who just want more from the gun.

Where i have my place in Kernville ca. most guys shoot their deer and bear every year with every thing from 30-30 lever actions to 338 Weatherby's......They sighted them in when they bought the gun..... 20 years ago and it is the most accurate gun they ever owned...even the lever actions.....No need for throats and chamber discussions with them...lol
Just wanted you to know my take on thigs.

fireball [Razz]

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Bellm:
Fisher, God Bless You and your diplomacy. Had I responded over there, there would have been far less tact.

Fireball, I agree in part with you so far as the average factory barrel being sufficient for most people, and you may be right about presenting factory barrels to a newbie the way I do. In the alternative, let him "pay his dues," take his losses, and learn the hard way. Hopefully he will discover there are better barrels to be had before he gets fed up with the TC system and abandons it, as I have seen happen so many times over the many years of talking to tens of thousands of shooters of all levels of ability and aptitude.

When I started shooting competitive Bullseye, a Colt Gold Cup was adequate for an entry level gun. It would outshoot most all new shooters' abilities. BUT, the more accurate the gun, the more positive the mental feedback that is crucial to learning marksmanship. My opinion is that "acceptable" accuracy results in acceptable marksmanship, but no higher.

I shot a Gold Cup for awhile, but then was fortunate enough to be issued top grade competitive guns from the Air Force Marksmanship Unit at Lackland AFB. There was no comparison. In less than a year I got to within 3 percentage points of a Master's card.

If all you want is minute of buck at 100 yards, for crying out loud, go buy an $80 surplus Mauser. British Enfields are up over $100 now I guess. Or go get an H&R Handy Rifle/NEF for under $200 for the whole damn gun, not just half the gun like TC's factory stuff. If you are going to spend the money for a supposedly better product, you deserve fair value. The cheapo military rifles were made to better standards, far better standards, than the TC barrels. Think about it. Manufacturers of the military arms had procurement boards standing over them that DEMANDED a certain level of quality and performance. SAAMI standards are looser'n a goose in comparison, and there is no one standing over TC regulating them EXCEPT YOU and YOUR PURCHASING DOLLARS. Dummies on "the board," (you the buyers) means whatever level of quality the stockholders at TC want to put out. There is no one else holding their feet to the fire.

I have been examining 10s of thousands of barrels of all kinds, commercial rifle, military, and TC factory stuff for over 23 years and can back up what I say. For some idiot to dismiss me out of hand is shear stupidity on their part when they themselves have no experience whatsoever at the level I work. It just doesn't get any dumber than that.

I still allege that touting a product as superior, but using far inferior production techniques and designs is tantamount to fraud.

Yes,I know, let the buyer beware. But if no one informs the buyer, he continues to take a raping, and it chaps my backside to see such things occur from the shadows while hiding behind an image of respectability.

In regard to GB, he wouldn't know a chamber throat if he saw one or whether a barrel even had one.

NO, I am not the only one that can cut a chamber, and hopefully what I have been writing will improve the level of quality in the barrels available from ALL sources, which will also come to some extent from YOUR level of expectation based on KNOWLEDGE. Matt is right. Knowledge IS power. Use it.

GB has never been able to keep two things straight at a time anyway, but the fact is that I am NOT soliciting rechamber work at present. It is NOT my main thrust. Due to personal constraints here at home, I am shifting to making barrels. I will take rechambers on a very limited basis, batched so far as possible in the future, but it is NOT my main purpose. It has been, yes. But it is not now and has not since the health crisis last March. GB believes what he wants to believe, and facts mean absolutely nothing, not even the facts surrounding our falling out. It is a matter of: don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up.

For me, I will do one thing for sure, and that is to further the site, further the technical content, and further all the supporting technical info I can. Anyone with an I.Q. above room temperature will see the difference on their own. If they can't, they will have fun swimming in the cesspool of ignorance...... just so they have fun.

That said, back to plugging in stuff on the online store. It should be appearing in the next few days. It won't be fully fleshed out, but it will be up and running. I will give 1buba the url to it in a few days. It will be announced here first.

BTW, there will be a section for inventory barrels in the store. Not a whole lot in it to start, but there will be some, including the braked 12" .45/70 I just blued last week. Neat barrel, big brother to Sean's 8" .44 Mag I made.

All the best...

Mike

Mike as far as ol'e Catfish's attitude towards bashing you......(*&$%% him and his Son Matt
Sorry but the new forum is for a reason and it has NOTHING to do with Helping the sportsman.
Time will show
Fireball [Razz]

mbk

one of us

posted

Anybody have any idea when that much anticipated totaly impartial and objective professional expert evaluation of that .358 Bellm barrel will be coming out at GBO??? [Big Grin]

Mike

Posts: 243 | Location: Kansas, USA | Registered: 12 March 2002

Ignored post by mbk posted

posted

Anybody have any idea when that much anticipated totaly impartial and objective professional expert evaluation of that .358 Bellm barrel will be coming out at GBO??? Mike

NEVER!! the Ole' Catfish is never going to give Mike any credit or even any Objective critisizum
Good or bad.....He has lowered himslef so far into the muck at the bottom of the pond that his mouth is just full of Waste!

fireball [Razz]

posted

Well boys and girls. I got the infamous letter from GB telling me I was banned from his site. Oh, and he proceed to tell me that it was his site and blah, blah, blah !!!! You know the rest of his line of crap. I am so crushed ..... what a putz.

If any of you would like to read it along with my response. Just let me know and I will e-mail it to you. I won't take up the space here boring everyone.

jslonake@insight.rr.com

[ 09-09-2002, 03:04: Message edited by: Fisher ]

contender85

one of us

posted

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fisher:
[QB]Well boys and girls. I got the infamous letter from GB telling me I was banned from his site. Oh, and he proceed to tell me that it was his site and blah, blah, blah !!!! You know the rest of his line of crap. I am so crushed ..... what a putz.

If any of you would like to read it along with my response. Just let me know and I will e-mail it to you. I won't take up the space here boring everyone.

Well Fisher,
Thus far I haven't been banned.......but expect I will be after he reads and deletes my latest post, here it is in case he deletes it before anybody gets to see it;

contender85 Posted: Sun, Sept 08, 2002 : 18:17
Topic: RE: TC .30-30 accuracy.......nothing new here........... as I would expect, my last post was deleted simply because I dont agree with the "Mighty Graybeard".......time to grow up old man, you're really starting to look like a horses behind. As I stated before....Shame on You!
Mark

Posts: 414 | Location: Western NC | Registered: 07 April 2002

Ignored post by contender85 posted

posted

well he (GB) is deleting my posts again....Its ok He will have a suprise soon enough.
And as he plays God with the forum....soon he will have only the ones he wants on his forum.......His followers....like the followers of Jim Jones when he poisoned all his members on the island airport???
I know most of you are far to young to remember.
Terrible it is someone would Run his members off due to Ignorance

Fireball

1buba

one of us

posted

Ya gotta feel sorry in a strange way for a clown like GB. He has no solid data to back up ANY of what he says.

I think that TC barrels have a wonderful place in the world....
At one of the local ranges I was talking to the Range Master. He told me that weekends around deer season are so bad that they go from 1 RM to 4. JUST to try and keep the barrels pointed down range. Most are imagrents that don't know any better (not a conversation I want to start on), some are just idiots. Anyway, these are the folks that should be buying the factory barrels. They'll go out and shoot them, get 3 or 4 shots on the target backing and think that is great. Then, they won't get any deer, they'll put the barrel in the paper for cheap, we can buy 'em and then have Mike re-chamber the barrel to shoot for those of us who like to shoot once or twice a week. For those of us use a scale and calipers to build our ammo. For those of us who look at signs of wind direction and speed. For those of us who tuck our guns in at night just after we kiss the kids... You get the picture.

Y'all take care,
steve

Posts: 329 | Location: North Pole, AK | Registered: 22 May 2002

Ignored post by 1buba posted

one of us

posted

Sean,
REF.
"Now THAT story about the sewage pond is funny! Alter the picture to show the sewage vomiting forth from the big mouth of the Old Catfish, and you just about have it right"

The really funny part of it is that it is true, and the look on the guy's face telling about it was, well, priceless.

Ref. ole catfish, what you say is true. He is afraid of the principle of "clean hands." That is part of what tripped his trigger in the first place. HE could be too busy to meet his committments, but I couldn't. Nor would he tell the rest of the story in an equitable manner. I called him on it, and the rest is history.

Regarding drawing heat, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, right?

I do respond when he jerks my chain, but it really does not matter in the least. Perspective, one of my favorite words. I look at it like this. Consider the thousands of Contender and Encore shooters out there, then look at the numbers frequenting the pond. It really does not amount to enough to give second thought to.

Then look at the level of interest, and it matters even less. What I do speaks for itself, and anyone with much sense can see it. So where does that leave GB? Looking pretty foolish, I would think.

Got bigger fish to fry. Speaking of which, that Rogue River salmon steak a friend gave us sure was good tonight, but I sure wouldn't mind pulling in some of those 10-15 pound channel cats out of my brother's pond in Illinois.

Mike

Posts: 791 | Location: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: 30 March 2002

Ignored post by Mike Bellm posted

posted

quote:
but I sure wouldn't mind pulling in some of those 10-15 pound channel cats out of my brother's pond in Illinois

hmm now you done went and made me hungry Mike.... [Big Grin]

Knowledge Is Power, Share It.
Matt

Sean VHA #60013

one of us

posted

Aye! I have a real love for true UK style fish & chips, and you have just gone and wetted my appetite for it, and all I have tonight is the free third shift box lunch of "yuck" that they give us in the ER.

Ahhh well, taking the wife out to dinner tomorrow night: might just opt for fish & chips [Big Grin]

[ 09-09-2002, 10:14: Message edited by: Sean HHI #7364 ]

Posts: 830 | Location: Virginia, USA | Registered: 08 March 2002

Ignored post by Sean VHA #60013 posted

one of us

posted

Well, 1buba, viva la difference.

Did you get your lathe fired up yet? Wait until you start putting barrels between centers and dialing the bores in "true." You can be Heretic Jr. [Big Grin]

Mike

Posts: 791 | Location: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: 30 March 2002

Ignored post by Mike Bellm posted

contender85

one of us

posted

Well it looks as though I've been banned as well, haven't recieved the official e-mail yet, but when I tried to check in earlier all I got was a message stating that I was not authorized to view that site......so sad. [Razz]

Mark

Posts: 414 | Location: Western NC | Registered: 07 April 2002

Ignored post by contender85 posted

small fish

one of us

posted

I sent him a nasty e-mail telling him what a loser he is.He didn't even have the balls to reply.I was amazed that you guys got any correspondence at all from him when he let you go.

I just redid my computer and he didn't recognize me.I accidentally clicked on my old bookmark and the pond was on the screen!Someone asked about Ed's Contender's and GB made sure to direct him to Ed's banner on the Pond.Typical. [Eek!]

Posts: 1408 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 09 April 2002

Ignored post by small fish posted

Magnum Mike

one of us

posted

I see i am on the "list"!! [Confused]

Link deleted..... [Wink]

Last post on one of these "pond" threads that i am readin or respondin to....i am on this puter for fun. If i need more stress in my life i will go back to work....

Posts: 1574 | Location: Western Pennsylvania | Registered: 12 September 2002

Ignored post by Magnum Mike posted

cas

one of us

posted

See guys... that's your problem. Get over it. I don't THINK I'm banned.... I dunno. Don't know. don't care.
I left when the deleted posts strated. Haven't been back since. I don't have the URL in my computer, nor do I follow links here when posted.
It reminds me of having a bad tooth... then it stops hurting. So what do ya do? Suck on it and see if it will hurt again! Always does.
Let it go........

Posts: 723 | Location: Ny | Registered: 17 March 2002

Ignored post by cas posted

posted

I, too, have been disappointed to find my input deleted. So... in keeping with the spirit of GB, I now renounce his site and delete his URL from my favorites list. Sounds like GB needs to put a butt-plug up his Glock.

posted

Same thing here.........seems if you became a member for Matts site he is deleting your posts....Does it bother you???..........lol

Fireball [Razz]

Sean VHA #60013

one of us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Fireball:
Same thing here.........seems if you became a member for Matts site he is deleting your posts....Does it bother you???..........lol

Fireball,

Now that right there is a good enough reason as any to join Matt's forums [Big Grin]

Posts: 830 | Location: Virginia, USA | Registered: 08 March 2002

Ignored post by Sean VHA #60013 posted

1buba

one of us

posted

You're crakin me up, Sean! [Big Grin]

Posts: 329 | Location: North Pole, AK | Registered: 22 May 2002

Ignored post by 1buba posted