Good morning,

All my Contender & Encore frames are currently wearing pistol length barrels but lately I've been thinking about getting one rifle length barrel and stock set for one of my Encore frames.

I still have some nice bolt rifles and I really think what has kept me from getting a long barrel up till now is that, eye appeal wise, I'm still having a problem convincing myself that I like the looks of the way the rifle stocks mount....ie drop straight down and then come back.....as opposed to a sleek looking (to me) bolt rifle.

If I can get over the mental eye appeal block and take the leap the barrel will be in a 6.5 something or other with a straight / non tapered blue barrel that will be used for both target shooting and hunting deer sized game.....maybe a 6.5 Bullberry, .260 or a ??

It is written and said, even though I have 15" and 16" barrels that will out shoot a lot of rifles, that simply because of design a break action is never going to have the accuracy potential of a bolt rifle and because of the drop down stock design felt recoil is going to be greater with a Contender or Encore vs a standard stocked bolt rifle....true ?

I've seen somewhere that getting a Contender or Encore rifle to shoot accurately takes a lot of time and work and that they need to be sent off (to where I have no idea) to have the forend floated, the stock to frame mounting improved and the frame worked to insure a truer and tighter lockup....true ?

Although I've shot competitively I'm by no means a world class shooter but I will say that I won't own a inaccurate firearm (speciality pistol or rifle) and to me that means five shot groups at or under 1" at 100yds are of the upmost importance.

To you fellas that have Contenders & Encores in a rifle configuration enlighten me a little before I take the plunge.....that is if I can get over the eye appeal aspect.

Thanks.....Ike

Ike-

You won't regret taking the plunge. First of all, I have never had to send anything off other than for rechamber work. For the trigger, bellmtcs.com sells a simple, easy-to-use kit that makes a noticeable difference. And there are tons of aftermarket stock options to give you just the look you want. You can get forends that are pillar bedded or that use the hanger bar system -- and either will be an improvement over the standard factory forends, particularly over the rynite versions.

And as a final touch, the Bellm 1x hinge pin has made quite a difference in most of my frame-barrel combos, though I will add that a few do just fine with the standard factory pin.

As to accuracy, my 6.5 Bullberry IMP Contender, in a 26"/1:8 barrel by MGM, prints 300 yard groups that rarely exceed an inch. And that's with unsegregated brass, powder dropped from a Uni-Flow and non-match hunting bullets. My smaller calibers, particularly the medium-capacity 6mms, punch ragged holes at 100 yards with monotonous regularity.

Most of my barrels are custom, though some factory tubes do quite well. But if you are a stickler for accuracy, the custom route is your best bet. In fact, matchgrademachine.com keeps quite a few chambered, ready-to-go barrels in its existing inventory -- and at a savings over the standard price. They are certainly worth checking out.

Forgot to add: I do not notice any recoil difference between the single shots and bolt rifles. To me, the Contenders and Encores are extremely pleasant to shoot. Of course, the weight of untapered barrels helps out in that area, too.

I had a full-bull, 26" Encore barrel in 6.5x55 that I would lay across the sandbags, softly nestle into my shoulder and shoot -- never using my off-hand -- and never worried about the recoil. And the loads were 140 grain bullets at nearly 2800 fps.

Bobby I really like the way that straight stock looks as far as it not having that deep dip coming off the receiver and from going to the TC web site I see it's a normally carried Encore and Contender production item but it does not come without the thumbhole in either wood or composite....darn !

They also now have what they call a composite "Flex Tech" straight stock that is supposed to reduce felt recoil by 30%+ but it also has thumbhole....darn again !

I know some fellas that shoot off the rack factory forends and do pretty darn well accuracy wise, one says the secret (as far as he is concerned) to mounting the forend is that he gets the rear screw just as tight as he possibly can and then just snugs up the front screw....he says he's experimented and swears that if he doesn't mount it that way his accuracy decreases noticeably.

Is the forend you have pictured a factory TC or custom ? If factory have you done anything to it inside ?

Ike

Ike-A guy in one of the Carolinas put together a couple of stock sets for me, including the one in the photo. I will PM the last e-mail that I have for him. He used to frequent here, but I know he had lots of health problems and have not seen his handle here for a long time now.

The stock sets were very reasonable, by the way -- and the finishes are extremely durable.

You may also want to check with matchgrademachine.com as I know they were offering some nice stock options as well.

The FlexTech does (or did) come in a non-thumbhole format. I had one on a .280 Rem., and it really did soak up the recoil. It felt like a low-end .243 load.

I know a couple of shooters who use the forend technique you mention and really like it. I don't really trust it as if the tension changes the least bit (and with uneven pressure exerted it is more apt to do so), the POI will most likely vary. ANd, with me, I do strip down and clean the guns pretty often, and the repeatability of that set-up steers me away from it.

The forend in the photo is a standard 2-screw setup that attaches to the dovetail. The forend has been beefed up with the addition of bedded pillars.

Bobby I just sent a email to the address you gave me and it came back as undeliverable.

I also just called MGM and was told that they do not make or carry stocks.

Ike

Ike-

Sorry about that. I just tried his e-mail as well and got the same message.

As to MGM, either they quit carrying them or I am remembering back to the VVCG days. But I recall some really unique finishes such as desert sand, etc. I know VVCG made stocks as I still have a couple of their forends.

Of course, there is Bullberry, and Dave Van Horn will make up a stock to your specs as well.

Please keep us posted as you embark on this project.

www.boydsgunstocks.com www.sskindustries.com are other sources not sure where ssk gets their stocks

Ike, not that my experience is anything close to a scientific evaluation, but I'll throw in my $.02.

My TC G2 .223 with trigger improved per Bellm tutorial and springs, is capable of shooting under .5 inches at 50 yards with a Burris 4X scope - highest X I have in a pistol scope. My Remington 700 SPS Tactical, which is comparable to the Varmint that I bought in 1995 and have since sold, will routinely shoot under .5 inches at 100 yards (freqeuntly around .3 inches). However, the rifle groups were shot with a 6-18X scope cranked up to 18X. I suspect that the TC would do as well as my rifles, if it had more magnification. I can also say this, I had a .357 Mag TC factory barrel. It was a decent shooter. I sold it and upgraded to an OTT custom .357 Mag. The OTT's groups are well under half the size of the TC factory barrel's best groups, using the same loads, scope, etc. I've seen groups from OTT barrels in higher pressure bottle necked cartridges that seem comparable to the best groups that I've seen out of decent rifles. IMHO, the barrel has a great deal to do with potential accuracy - more so than whether it's a bolt or TC platform.

quote:

It is written and said, even though I have 15" and 16" barrels that will out shoot a lot of rifles, that simply because of design a break action is never going to have the accuracy potential of a bolt rifle and because of the drop down stock design felt recoil is going to be greater with a Contender or Encore vs a standard stocked bolt rifle....true ?

I don't think so.


These groups were shot with a factory 25/06 barrel recently. This series was shot from a clean barrel after a defective rear scope ring was replaced while I was rezeroing the rifle. The single shot at the far right and the 3 shot group at the left should be ignored. The other 2 groups are typical of what the rifle will do. Notice the smaller group measures a little over .25 inches from center to center. To date, the best group shot with this barrel measured 0.149 inches from center to center.

quote:

I've seen somewhere that getting a Contender or Encore rifle to shoot accurately takes a lot of time and work and that they need to be sent off (to where I have no idea) to have the forend floated, the stock to frame mounting improved and the frame worked to insure a truer and tighter lockup....true ?

All of my Encore and Contender barrels except one are factory. The ONLY thing I do to the Encores is to get a trigger job (usually from Mike Belm) and oversized hinge pins (I'm not sure the latter makes much difference). I don't free float barrels, use hanger bars, etc.


This 3 shot 1.5 inch group was shot with an Encore 460 S&W handgun from 200 yards. Of all the T/C barrels I've had, it was hardest to get this one to shoot well. It broke 2 scopes, scope mounts loosened, and most bullets available to handloaders aren't best for this cartridge. Also, the powders listed in manuals didn't give the accuracy I wanted. I had to cook up my own load with Hornady muzzle loader bullets and 2400.

quote:

Although I've shot competitively I'm by no means a world class shooter but I will say that I won't own a inaccurate firearm (speciality pistol or rifle) and to me that means five shot groups at or under 1" at 100yds are of the upmost importance.

Accuracy is very important to me as well. Any scoped Encore or Contender rifle I've shot would do 1.5 inches or better at 100 yards though I usually shoot 3 shot groups. The vast majority will do 1 inch or less at 100 yards and that includes the handguns.

quote:

To you fellas that have Contenders & Encores in a rifle configuration enlighten me a little before I take the plunge.....that is if I can get over the eye appeal aspect.

I used to think Contenders and Encores were a little strange looking. It's kind of like an ugly kid; you like them when you find out how good they are.

I have 15+ Encore rifle barrels in various chamberings. All the barrels have individually pillar bedded laminated beaver tail forearms . They are TC , Bullberry, TC Custom and MGM BARRELS. My actions have Bellm trigger jobs and Bellm springs. I use a 1x Bellm pin in one action and a standard pin in the other. I have dedicated reloading dies for each barrel. All shoot under 1" with 5 shots at 100yds, using handloads I developed. The best most accurate barrel is mt 280AI TC Custom shop heavy contour barrel It will shoot slightly under 5/8" for 5 shots at 100yds with 140gr Nosler BT's Next most accurate is my 257AI TC barrel Worst is my 338-06 which shoots 7/8" or a little less for 5 shjots at 100yds.
I have bolt rifles that do not shoot as well as my Encore barrels. I have developed the best load for each, eliminating as many variables as possible. OAL varies according to each barrel/chanbering, Powder, bullet weight, charge weight and bullet configuration is specific to each barrel. As is case sizing and headspacing

Yup, it's a lot of work, experimentation, and a fair amount of $$ investment BUT that's the fun of shooting and reloading.

To sum it all up, don't think for a moment that Encore rifles take a back seat to other rifles when it comes to accuracy.

Here is a 4-shot group @ 100 yards while doing load development with the 30-30AI. Pillar bedded forend, 1x oversize pin and bellm trigger job.
I was more than pleased.
This is an 18" barrel but shooting it in a handgun config.

Ernie-

I detect some serious vertical stringing in that group. Don't waste your time with it. Send it to me for proper disposal...

Seriously, though, that is a fantastic group. I've been pondering a 30-30 AI in a 22-24" Contender barrel for a while now, but I just haven't gone forward with the project.

Ernie-

Do you anneal your cases prior to fireforming?

No I did not anneal the brass.
I also used 375 Win brass to get stronger brass.

I picked up a couple of bags of 38-55 brass to try in my 6.5 BB Imp. It seems to have worked well so far, but I hate to trim -- and of course, this one requires it.

It was an enjoyable project, nonetheless. I did, however, necks down in steps: 35, .30 and 7mm before going into the 6.5 BB Imp die. I tried to eliminate the 7mm step, but this brass is a little weak for that, and I creased/crushed 2 of the 5 I tried, so I abandoned that little shortcut.

Forgot to add: The easiest, though, is getting the 6.5 BRM brass from eabco.com and simply bumping back the shoulder. Fireforming is minimal as the case is very close to specs.

You could do the same with the .300 BRM if the need ever arose.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Ernie-

I detect some serious vertical stringing in that group. Don't waste your time with it. Send it to me for proper disposal...

Seriously, though, that is a fantastic group. I've been pondering a 30-30 AI in a 22-24" Contender barrel for a while now, but I just haven't gone forward with the project.

Bobby,
FWIW I will sell this barrel (stubbed), forend, and scope base in the future once I shoot some small groups @ 500-600 yards and maybe a pd or two with it.

IKE, I had similar concerns and spent a long time getting used to the looks of the Encore.

I finally took the plunge and had Bullberry make .17AH and 6.5-06 barrels and had them work over a frame, trigger, put a stock on it, etc. I really like the feel of the pistol grip stock, and the gun sure is handy. The 6.5 is the most accurate rifle I've ever fired, bar none, and I don't notice the recoil, if there is any, shooting from the bench.

My Encore has the dovetail hangars, and Bullberry bar suspension. One screw holds the forend on the gun. It's full floated and I've relieved the "ears" so they don't touch the frame. I've discovered the Encore is sensitive to the way it's held, and the my best groups are off the bench but with the rifle just held in my hands--like I was shooting from the prone positon.

I took the .17AH prairie dog hunting the weekend after I got it and was hitting regularly at 200 yds with fireforming loads.

But think about this...a .17 AH, little popgun you can shoot in town (darn near!LOL), a standard headsize round; you could get a belted magnum or a 9.3X74 all with the same barrel contour, same gun. Pretty flexible system, I think.
Sincerely
Shotgun

This one is a MGM .204 Ruger, full bull 23" on a hanger bar set up and heavy flat foreend.

I don't care for shooting groups on paper much but when I did they were very small. It is a legitimate and effective 400 yd. prairie dog rifle. It will shoot with most any bolt rifle I have been around and better than most. I bought it and put it together to shoot prairie dogs and it is the 'shxt'.

If you know how picky teenage boys are you know they wouldn't tolerate rifles that don't shoot straight....especially boys who have spent a few years shooting pds. This is a factory stock .204 carbine and the boychild has just completed 7 straight 300 yd.+ shots on the early season baby prairie dogs...note the date.
I am convinced that it will also shoot with most bolt rifles....

Seven straight at 300+...I'd definitely say he has the hang of it...and I'd also say that barrel is definitely a keeper!

Ernie-If it wasn't only 18", I'd probably grab that barrel the minute you list it. My 20 1/8th" 7mm Bullberry is my shortest carbine barrel -- and it's just about as short as I like. A good bit of my shooting is prone and on caliche flats, and keeping the muzzle blast as far away from me as possible is my goal.

I really prefer them 22-24" (depending on the caliber, of course), but even my 26" 6.5 BB Imp isn't the least bit unwieldy.

I guess I just can't get used to the shorter carbine barrels...

You could always use it in the handgun configuration

Ernie:
Thats real nice shooting!

I thought you only shot XPs!

I've kicked around the idea of getting a 30-30AI for the tender...but I REALLY want a 7-08 Encore first!
Gun show this weekend, maybe I'll score a SS Encore frame!!!!!!!

Also MOA's and Contenders

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Seven straight at 300+...I'd definitely say he has the hang of it...and I'd also say that barrel is definitely a keeper!

Yea Bobby he started out shooting pds with an old savage 22-250 that we used for a few years. It was an extremely accurate bolt rifle until he pretty much shot the rifling out of it. I knew he would not be pleased if his TC wouldn't maintain the same level of range and accuracy. It does that very well and also makes for a much handier 'carry rifle'.
My custom barreled .204 has a bit longer range than his but only because it is set up slightly different. Mine has a heavy wide and flat foreend, 15x scope and very light trigger. His has 4x12 scope, heavier trigger and standard TC stock set.

Well Ike, not sure what the tell you at present, but by the end of next week I should have all the parts-n-pieces to put together my first ever Contender Rifle.

A while back I bought a 3rd new SST G2 Contender Frame. I actually needed the 3rd frame for during Deer Season so I could keep one of my frames set up with my SST Super 14 .223 Barrel in case I had to shoot a Coyote.

Well this 3rd Frame is sitting here and I really didn't have a Barrel to use on it other than for Deer Season. With all that said I started thinking about making a Rifle out of this Handgun Frame for at least part of the year.

I have not shot a G2 Contender in Rifle configuration, but have shot a few Contender Carbines over the years. The T/C Contender Carbine Stocks don't fit me at all, not even close. So I started searching for other options.

Then I learned that On Target Technology makes a product called the Grip Chip. This is an adaptor / spacer / insert that allows the use of Encore Handgun Grips or Rifle Buttstocks on the G2 Contender Frames. I promptly ordered one from Mike.

I then had the wheels put in motion and ordered the following parts-n-pieces:

Encore Synthetic Thumbhole Buttstock

G2 Contender Synthetic Rifle Forend

23" SST G2 Contender Bull Barre in .223 Remington

Plus a Rifle Scope and Base & Rings.

I handled a few Encores with the Synthetic Thumbhole Stock and really liked the feel of them. In addition the Encore Synthetic Thumbhole Stock is 1/2" longer than the Encore Monte Carlo Synthetic Stock, which I also wanted.

My current SST Super 14 .223 Remington Contender Barrel shoots so good I am afraid I am going to be disappointed, but have to try. A few weeks back I had my SST Super 14 .223 Remington Contender with 3x12x Burris LER Handgun Scope out to do some shooting. I shot 6 3 shot groups that afternoon (with that barrel) at 100 yards off the bench at scope magnifications between 6x to 12x (actually checking to see if I was going to experience any point of impact shift at different magnifications).

Anyway I was shooting 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with H-4895 in LC Military Brass with Remington 7 1/2 Primers. I should also note that I installed stainless-steel washers between the barrel attachment lugs on the barrel and the forend to float the forend somewhat. The largest of the 6 - 3 shot groups that day was exactly 1/2" and the smallest slightly under 1/4" (.238") at 100 yards.

I am going to be amazed if the new 23" SST G2 Contender Rifle shoots that well, but am hoping.

Larry

Larry it looks like we've both got new TC Contender and G-2 rifles to play with.

Friday after work I went and saw Ed of Ed's Contenders and walked away with a brand new Fox Ridge 24" 6.5 TCU straight bull (non tapered) Contender barrel, Redfield dual dovetail base & rings, a new factory walnut stock & forend plus a used Bullberry forend with the hanger bar....I plan on calling Bullberry today and then send my new factory forend to them to have the hanger bar system done to it also just so my wood will more closely match.

What I wanted from the begining, for my first TC rifle, was a easy on the shoulder round that is known to be accurate and that is capable of taking up to deer size game that isn't a pain to load or expensive and hard to find components for.......if this new 24" barrel shoots anything like my 14" factory Contender barrel in 6.5 TCU I think I've found exactly what I was searching for.

I had to work Sat. so I got the new rifle all put together late yesterday afternoon and then got sixty Rem. .223 cases formed and ready to load last night....I was surprised but the factory stock actually fits me pretty well but I may add a slip-on recoil pad for a little extra length later on.

For a scope I mounted a minty older El Passo fixed 6X Weaver that I've had sitting here for quite awhile....the total weight of the scoped rifle is 8.9 lbs.

All I need to do now is get my brass loaded and then find the time to fireform the brass so I can start the pet loading process.

My 14 incher really likes Rem. brass, Rem. 120gr PSP Core-Locks, a good charge of IMR4198 with Rem. 71/2 BR primers and Bobby T. tells me the Rem. 120's do just fine from 1950 fps and up so I'm going to give them a try first and if they don't work out for some reason I've got some Hornady 129gr. Interlock #2620's that I'll try next.

Keep us posted on your progress with the new rifle Larry and I'll do the same.

Ike

Wow Ike, you jumped in with both feet. I sure hope it is what you expected.

I guess it is just another fact to the versatility of the T/C format.

Larry

Looks like both of you guys have some enjoyable drudgery ahead with load development, etc.

Heck, that's my favorite kind of "work."

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Looks like both of you guys have some enjoyable drudgery ahead with load development, etc.

Heck, that's my favorite kind of "work."

Me too, but I ain't smart enough to figure out how to get paid for it.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by SDHandgunner:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Looks like both of you guys have some enjoyable drudgery ahead with load development, etc.

Heck, that's my favorite kind of "work."

Me too, but I ain't smart enough to figure out how to get paid for it.

Larry

If there was money in it .....I'd be rich.

Well my parts-n-pieces have started showing up. I had to order from a few different places to get everything I needed.

To start with the first thing to show up was the On Target Technology Grip Chip. When I took it out of the package I noticed how simple this part is. It is a molded piece of plactic. The section goes on the grip stud of the G2 Contender Frame and then the side "wings" fold outward agains the sides of the G2 Contender Frame. Basically what this does is take up the gaps due to the Encore Frame being larger thus allowing the Encore grip or Buttstocks to be used on the G2 Contender Frame.

One of the "wings" was folded in flat againt the center piece of the Grip Chip. I folded it back to where it needed to be, and while installing the Encore Synthetic Thumbhole Buttstock that "wing" broke off from the center section.

I thought about trying to glue it back to gether, but instead I e-mailed Mike @ OTT and promptly received a reply telling me that that has happened before and that Mike would be sending me out a new replacement Grip Chip.



The On Target Technology Grip Chip is the Black Plastic Piece on the rear of the G2 Contender Grip Frame in the photo. (This idea and product are so neat and simple why couldn't I think of it.)

Drum roll please .......................................................................................

and the finished project looks like this.



The forend arrived today. I promptly got out my piece of PVC Pipe and Sandpaper and sanded out the forend down to where the sand paper started touching the saddles in the forend. I then cleaned it up good, put a #10 Machine Screw Washer in the bottom of the hole in each of the two saddles and attached the forend to the Barrel. This method is a method I have used for years to somewhat Free Float Contender Forends. With this method the only things contacting the barrel are the washers that the forend sits on and the attaching screws, the rest of the forend does not contact the barrel.

I thought this G2 Contender Rifle handled and felt great before. Now with the forend on it it even feels better.

Now I have to wait to get a nice day to get out and shoot it.

Larry

Really nice Larry...if it shoots as good as it looks it'll be a real tack driver.

On a different but related subject, because my 6.5 TCU 14" and new rifle barrel will both be using the same bullet I thought I'd better get in a few more bullets....it's been a long time since I had to buy bullets and it looks like what I've been seeing about prices going up on brass and bullets is true.

Yesterday I ordered a 500 count bulk box of Remington 120gr PSP Core-Lokts from Midway and they figured out to be $21.59 per 100 with the shipping figured in....the bullets were $96.99 and the shipping from Mo. to Okla. was $11.00 for a grand total of $107.99.

$21.59 per 100 for a non-premium bulk bullet sure seems mighty high....I can only imagine what a box of premium bullets is going for now days.

Ike

Yep Bullet & Brass prices are going through the roof. I read on another forum yesterday that ATK (Federal, CCI/Speer. Alliant etc) was just awarded a Military Contract, so I would imagine their products will start being in short supply.

I am really glad I have 800 rounds of .223 ammo all loaded up and ready to shoot.

Larry

Hi,I just received a stock by gunstocksinc.com looks good to me and allows me to apply my finish of choice. For what it's worth, and they seem like nice people. Guess I didn't know where this was ending up- re TC stocks.