The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Single Shot Pistols T/C discontinues Contender barrels............Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Just spoke to "Mike" at T/C Customer Service this morning and he confirmed the rumor that "T/C has discontinued all 10 inch and all 21 inch barrels for the Contender". He said they will still make most of the 14 inch and the 16 inch barrels. He also said that all Contender barrels will work on the G-2 except for the 45/410 barrels. He also said that the G-2 will be out in Feb.-2003. When I asked him if he had personally seen a G-2 he said "No", when asked if he had spoken to anyone who had seen a G-2 he said "No". He did verify that the G-2 will come out in a few new calibers that the Contender doesn't have. Kinda like saying that you can have a choice of any engine in the new hover car that Chevrodge in putting out next year, Ain't no such animal. I believe I specified T/C and not Foxridge Outfitters(Custom Shop) [ 12-13-2002, 11:44: Message edited by: Steve E. ] | ||
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Geee.....another intelligent move by TC. 10 & 21" barrels in the Contender are popular so lets get rid of them?!?!?!?!?! ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} I believe this is another "stall" tactic and also a way to reduce on hand inventory (and improve cash flow).Sounds like the "death throws" to me..... ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} MBM Co (Mike), i think that you are gonna have to get up to production speed soon!! ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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What the heck is going ON? It isn't as if I will buy one of their barrels, I'm now going to custom makers to get what they never made in... 20" and longer!!!! Guess the custom shop will be turning out all their barrels, if they keep that operation going. If, however, this is a sign of the death throes of the Contender (including G2) then they should at least let us know. I should say that I am not surprised. They dumped the Seneca and Cherokee (let's not have younger shooters or women come to us) AND they have had an impossible to keep straight line of in-lines which nobody gets excited about. | |||
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Obviously there has to be several half truths in T/C's statements. The illustrious G2 rifle is supposed to have a 23" barrel. Maybe the old 10" barrel will now be 11" or 12". Who knows at this point? All I can say is there is a ton of barrels out there to be had. Somebody better make some new frames to hang 'um in. ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} Is the Contender design such that it precludes another manufacturer from making a frame to fit the barrels already in circulation? [ 12-13-2002, 01:56: Message edited by: Alpo ] | |||
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They can't sell it to Marlin--Cause they might show TC how to make a factory fitted barrel for $80 like they do on the NEF rifles that Marlin now owns! I wish I would have grabbed that 357max NEF I saw last month. | |||
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| <Fireball> |
I called TC and was told that the CUSTOM shop still will make any barrel you want. It is just TC production barrels in 10" and 21" droped due to Lagging sales of those lengths. Fireball | ||
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| <Andrew Hostetler> |
I saw in some magazine (Shooting Times maybe?) that T/C was going to offer a 209x45 muzzleloader barrel for the new G2. Hope it does as well as some of the Encore blackpowder barrels I have heard of. | ||
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| <T. D. Clevenger> |
quote:I don't want to sound rude, but as far as I'm personally concerned, I don't care if T/C stops making barrels altogether. I don't buy them. Too many lemons. But, I wish they'd send me a few more frames! T.D. | ||
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| <Fireball> |
posted by Alpo: Is the Contender design such that it precludes another manufacturer from making a frame to fit the barrels already in circulation?[/QB][/QUOTE] I feel this is where the REAL discussion should be..Why worry about about the barrels?? They are EASY for the custom shops to build and we have Plenty of choices on barrels.......WE NEED FRAMES WE need an aftermarket TC frame Maybe better hinge pic area...More adjustable trigger pull and such. I am sure that the custom shops could build a BETTER frame. Maybe your choice of Flat sided or engraved in your choice ?? Fireball [ 12-13-2002, 06:01: Message edited by: Fireball ] | ||
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quote:Well not to tear them up but, I just recieved a brand new replacement for my fluted 25-35, it looked nice and smooth real purty finish but after shooting 50 rnds thru it I see where this one is just like the last,the chambers fluted. Am I the only person to have one of these? Or just the only one to complain? Wes | |||
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| <Headstamp> |
Thanks for the update FB, had a feeling it only pertained to "factory stock" bbls. Regards | ||
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HEY! WHATS THAT NOISE I HEAR?!?!?!?!?! Is it the ship listing?????? | |||
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| <Fireball> |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MSSmagnum: ]HEY! WHATS THAT NOISE I HEAR?!?!?!?!?! Is it the ship listing?????? Too Many Scud Missles on the Port side Fireball ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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Lagging SALES??? Hell if FORD, GM or DODGE quit making cars do you think the sale of Factory parts might slow down after 2 long years??? I bet so. Might be a few more Honda and Toyota parts going out the door to Customers who switched over to a new brand since their favorite of many years decided to get out of the business. It seems like TC management needs to review Marketing and Sales Plans to Refocus on thier CORE business. The Contender made them what they are. For them to stop production before the new one is fully tested and ready for release sounds like Corperate Suicide to me. Just my 2 cents but I do need another Frame and I'm just about tried of waiting for a G2. | |||
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Wes, in regard to: "Well not to tear them up but, I just recieved a brand new replacement for my fluted 25-35, it looked nice and smooth real purty finish but after shooting 50 rnds thru it I see where this one is just like the last,the chambers fluted. Am I the only person to have one of these? Or just the only one to complain?" Like I explained to you when you were here and have explained elsewhere, TC does not have the internal capability to affect the necessary changes to get things right even the second, third, or however many times around. The fluted chamber is simply a matter of too much clearance angle on the cutting edges of the reamer. If I had the reamer in hand, I would fix it in a just a few minutes with a Diamond EZE Lap by slightly reducing the clearance angle. But TC cannot do this. They are bound to use reamers ground to SAAMI specs, and if the company doing the grinding does not get the angles right, then TC's only recourse is to go back on the company that made the reamer. If the people doing the chamber work who answered a help wanted ad in the local paper can't get past their supervisor or worse yet, the head of production who got his training at TC in the first place.... what can you expect? Send the barrel back, Wes, and wait for another just like it. Mike | |||
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"T/C has discontinued all 10 inch and all 21 inch barrels for the Contender". I wonder if it could be that they only will make them through the custom shop? Sounds like a way to boost the price of the factory barrels to me. I may be off base but I don't think so. It sounds like a marketing scheme to me. Being they are losing sales to custom shops, they only make them available by order therefore they can charge more for that Custom T/C Barrel. Just a guess on my part but I don't believe that they sell more 14 & 16" barrels than the ones they are going to discontinue. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} Rich Jake | |||
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Send the barrel back, Wes, and wait for another just like it. Mike[/QB][/QUOTE] AH, I dont think I'll waste my time, let me know if 'Improving' will clean it up and I'll send It down to you or drop it off some time. The darn things accurate as any so I'll use my brass a couple more times or until they wont chamber any more. It's deffinitly a conversation piece HEHE | |||
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Hmmm . . . I just got an email response back from T/C on this same issue two days ago in regard to 10" .22LR match and .22 Hornet barrels after 2 distributers told me the same damn thing !! Quoting "Tim" at T/C: Dear Sir; The .22 Hornet 10" and .22LR Match barrels are still in production. Very Truly Yours, Tim xxxxx He even included their catalog page in his email. ----------------------------------------- Now - MY $.02: IF T/C discontinue's the 10" barrels, there are going to be a BUNCH of REALLY PISSED-OFF IHMSA shooters out there. What a slap in the face to the IHMSA crowd ! The very organization that drove a TON of single-shot gun and barrel sales (a CLEAR majority of them T/C), that are REQUIRED to use 10" barrels for 2 out of the 3 catagories of competition - and you T/C, are not going to make the very products that they require to do business with you?? How f'ing stupid is that ? I bet MOA and EB Brown are eating this up! - if it is in fact true. I'm going to have to go to Fox Ridge, wait God knows how long and pay a hell of a lot more for a 10" "Production" barrel? Bullshit ! If I can't find one used, I won't buy a new barrel or caliber from Fox Ridge.Ya know, this coupled with the ridiculous progress T/C has shown to produce the G2 really makes me wonder if I should have gone with MOA or Brown from the get-go. I hope that this IS just a stunt to drive sluggish sales by T/C. It's still a really shitty thing to do, but at least they won't be cutting the nuts off the IHMSA crowd, as well as all those out there that need the 21" barrels as well !! DAMN am I pissed-off ! I hope it's for naught. | |||
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quote:AH, I dont think I'll waste my time, let me know if 'Improving' will clean it up and I'll send It down to you or drop it off some time. The darn things accurate as any so I'll use my brass a couple more times or until they wont chamber any more. It's deffinitly a conversation piece HEHE[/QB][/QUOTE] | |||
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quote:AH, I dont think I'll waste my time, let me know if 'Improving' will clean it up and I'll send It down to you or drop it off some time. The darn things accurate as any so I'll use my brass a couple more times or until they wont chamber any more. It's deffinitly a conversation piece HEHE[/QB][/QUOTE] Wes, Measure your case web diameter. If it does not exceed about .418" or so, I can probably clean it up by lapping..... not polishing, but lapping. It takes longer than we had time for when you were here last time, but lapping may let you stay with the chamber and dies you have as opposed to buying a set of .25/35 Imp. dies. But if we do rechamber it, the entire case body from just ahead of the web forward will be increased in diameter and permit cutting out the chatter ridges in the chamber. Your call. Gald to help which ever way.... when the time comes. Let me know, and I'll put you on file in the waiting list. Mike | |||
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quote:Dino, You are po-ed? You are only looking at the barrels from the outside and what is available or not available. I've been po-ed for years about what they do to the INSIDES of the barrels, which goes over the heads of 90% of shooters, even when explained in detail. Yep, you are darned right that IHMSA put TCs on the map, and if you go back to the early days of IHMSA, you will find also that Elgin Gates went round and round with the nitwits in charge of TC over a number of things. Elgin told me on a number of occasions about beating them up over barrel crowns for example, and while I do not recall specifically that his 7mm Int-R cartridge was in fact designed to straighten out the 7mm TCU "drill press" factory chambers, the fact is that his rechambers did help a lot in this regard. My opinion, which I make no bones about, is that TC has no business making barrels in the first place.... and never did. Sorry, but they simply do not know their trade. They are parts makers first, working on nice retirements. They got pretty "hacked off" at silhouette shooters for being too picky, the source of half their complaints. Rather than effectively responding to the complaints, they chose to essentially write you guys off in favor of those less demanding of them. And, yes, they paved the way for the aftermarket makers to fill the niche they abandoned once the ?Contender's potentials had been realized. I am not a designer by nature. I have always been more geared to making treasures out of trash, but I dearly wish someone else would come up with a replacement design for the Contender frame that would use all of the Contender barrels floating around. I just don't have the time or inclination to do so myself. Maybe someday I will get po-ed enough to take it on. Why do I take the stand I do? Am I not shooting myself in the foot by not worshipping at the TC altar? Reflecting a little, I like building rifles on military M98 Mauser rifles. I like the action and like "making treasures out of trash." In principle, I should not patronize the M98 Mauser on a philosophical basis since a good percentage of war time 98s were made by slave labor, by laborers with a calculated productive lifespan of just months in some labor camps. I like the M98 design and concept, though I must on moral grounds reject the society that produced many them. TC is certainly not run by Adolph Hitler, and I am not implying that. What I am saying is that in principle I reject much of what TC does and always have.... once I learned more about the "innards" of their products. But I do like the Contender and Encore systems and the potentials they represent when given proper attention to detail, much as in building a "race gun" out of a surplus G.I. 1911 .45 Auto. To suddenly feel betrayed by TC is really, imho, a delayed reaction. Sorry you got roused from your sleep so suddenly! I was not dubbed THE TC Heretic for nothing. Mike | |||
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Mike, Damn right I'm PO'ed !!! I have been in this sport for just a year now. In that year, I've gone from someone that never reloaded a bullet to a reasonably accomplished (I at least like to think so ) reloader. I have advanced reasonably well in my first year of SB & FP. I will start BB competition this coming season. All with - the T/C.I bought my first T/C frame and barrel last December. I now have four barrels of which I reload for three of them (one is a .22LR), plus reload for my .45 ACP. I bought into the T/C "family" mainly because my friend that introduced me to IHMSA had a lot of T/C barrels and it was obvious that they are the stalwart of IHMSA matches, at least at the club that I shot at and as seen in the IHMSA newsletter. I looked at Brown and MOA and elected to go with T/C for the above reasons and the fact that I could get a lot of local support. There was but one Brown single-shot at our club, and no MOA guns. Sounded like a resounding endorsement. As I read forum postings, became aware of your work and experienced some of T/C's shortcomings myself, I figured - well, there's a lot of us in the same boat. Even though it has a few leaks, it's floating, surviving and still going strong. Yes, you've been fighting the fight for a LOT longer than I have, but it just became REAL personal to me. I not only am PO'ed, but amazed (If I was a more sensitive type of guy, I would say I'm even "hurt and betrayed." ) that the powers that be at T/C would even contemplate a move such as this. There are a lot of people with serious money invested in T/C products that just got their face slapped by the very same company. Yes, we can all buy custom-made or modified barrels, but that would eliminate those that do from the Production class of IHMSA shooting. You don't think I want every T/C barrel I got rechambered? Or better yet, a custom-made barrel? Hell yes I do ! But then - I'm shooting in Unlimited class, home of the REALLY custom T/C's, RamPro's and XP's.OK, T/C doesn't make the best of barrels, nor cater to the blood that kept their company alive, but they made the barrels a lot of us now HAVE to use if we have a T/C frame and want to stay "Production." Yeah, I could sell the whole T/C kit and kaboodle and buy Brown or MOA without a huge transition for me - one year, one frame, 4 barrels, but what about the guys out there with 3 or 4 frames and a dozen or more barrels that have shot them for 10 years or more? That's a big friggin' change for them ! Yes Mike, you're right - I'm looking at the outside of the barrel and what is - or will be avialable in the future. You are intimate with the inside of the barrels. While IHMSA shooting isn't my profession (thank goodness ! ) The inside of the barrel is yours - and I'm sure there are a LOT of shooters out there that are thankful for that ! Let's hope that this is all a bunch of hooey and T/C doesn't turn its back on us like this. If we are forced to buy "standard" barrels from Fox Ridge, I postulate that the used market of 10" & 21" barrels will clearly become a sellers paradise. [ 12-18-2002, 03:10: Message edited by: Dino32HR ] | |||
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Dino, What's that you say? "Manage your destiny, don't be victimized by it." Well spoken. Says a mouthful. I have been at a loss to know what else to do other than what I have been doing for years, and that is simply to tell it like it is. I feel the situation is a travesty. One salvation for you production shooters is to get orders together and have TC do a production run. 50 barrels is the minimum, I believe. I don't even know who the head of IHMSA is now, but through it, you should be able to put a 50 barrel order together. One critical point: Place the order formally as a purchase order, which in machine shop type situations is a contract. Specify what tolerances you will accept as terms of the contract. Then they will have to either "do it, or get off the stool." And if they don't meet the terms, you can rattle the legal saber. Funny how it opens deaf ears. I would be glad to consult with whomever was placing the order. Once you decide on a given barrel and chamber, get the SAAMI drawings from SAAMI and also ask for alternative drawings for the same chamber. Find out what the "window" is for certain aspects of the chamber such as the throat diameter, and for example, "call out" the minimum within the parameters SAAMI specifies. They may give some song and dance about how HORRIBLY expensive tooling is. Don't buy it. What is even a $250 special grind on a reamer when you are buying over $7500 worth of product? What is the reamer worth if they expect to see you for the next $7500 worth? Or, what is it worth to you to ante up for the special reamer to help insure the success of your project? When Ken French tried to tell me how horribly expensive rifling buttons were, if he had been standing in front of me, I'd have probably knocked him across the room for trying to blow smoke like that. Someone off the street might have been impressed with the statement, but I had both bought and made enough rifling buttons to know he was full of it and didn't buy it at all. I don't know what the current costs are for rifling buttons, but back when I was making barrel blanks, the most I ever paid was under $350 for one. One button makes thousands of barrel blanks. Even if the cost today were $1K, for the sake of doing it right and making a good product, what is the cost of the tooling v. the negative results of an inferior product in the market place? My two bits worth again.... Mike | |||
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quote:Golly Dino...we seem to be eye-to-eye on many different things! Mike is correct though when he says that TC abandoned the silhouette crowd long ago. I find it unfortunate that IHMSA or NRA cannot do the same thing to TC by allowing other barrel makers to participate in production categories since they are becoming commonplace for the discerning Contender shooter. It seems that utilizing a "custom" barrel (as long as sight radius and barrel length is kept within current parameters) is not outside the spirit of the current rules (however, it is obviously outside the rules as they are written). Afterall, it is perfectly acceptable to purchase a semi-custom pistol from MOA or BF (Eben Brown) that qualifies for production. I have been (and still am) very tempted to make the move to MOA...if it weren't for all those darn barrels that I already have. I could get rid of them, but heck...they shoot really well and I have a real hard time selling something that works so well for me. The problem becomes...just how long will the Contender platform be a viable silhouette platform. Especially when I can get a MOA with much better quality & quality control...not to mention a better lock time (for us standing shooters this is important). I think some letters directed toward the governing body of IHMSA is warranted by this latest action of TC. Maybe even a letter or two directed to TC...telling them to keep their Fox Ridge produced barrels and the G2 (if it ever sees the light of day). Whew...that was really liberating. (thinking to myself) Now where is MOA's phone number again? [ 12-19-2002, 11:32: Message edited by: B_Koes ] | |||
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Well, taking into account my own words in regard to "managing my own destiny," I have a couple options: 1) Sell all my T/C stuff now and break into a new set of tools. 2) Decide that the barrels I have will carry me well enough until a)This is resolved in some method by IHMSA and or T/C or b) I will obtain used barrels as needed. My current barrels should (hopefully) carry me at least a couple of more years with no problem. I'm covered with two differant FP calibers, a SB and a BB barrel. If I want to get another barrel for FP or BB and can't find one used, I'll just have to wait I guess. Or maybe - go to a differant manufacturer if this whole thing remains in limbo. Yes, we can try collective purchases with T/C as Mike suggests. It's a lot of extra work and certainly kills the impulse buy of a new caliber or barrel. Jeez - we'll have to PLAN a new barrel purchase ! In the meantime, I'm not going to do anything rash and will write to IHMSA to see what they have up their sleeve to work with their members. Bret and Mike have raised some very valid points in this whole T/C issue. We IHMSA & NRA shooters should work as a group to drive actions with T/C first to not stop production of these "tools of our trade," and then if for naught, IHMSA and the NRA for practical, reasonable rule changes. My $.04 (hey - everything is more expensive these days ! ) | |||
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Something I have never understood in the IHMSA rules is you must use a factory 10" barrel for production class, yet you can spend tons of money on a EAB falling block, RPM or MOA and still shoot production. Doesn't pass my sanity test! | |||
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I live in OH, but went to Rochester, NH last week for Christmas with my inlaws - home of TC. I tried to speak directly to a tech guy at TC with whom I had exchanged emails previously, but he was on vacation. I trekked over to the TC custom shop at Fox Ridge outfitters to ask about Contender barrel offerings and the G2. I was told that the G2 was on the production schedule for the first time and they are supposed to start "cutting frames" during the second half of February. It will take until mid-late March for them to actually reach retail loations. The guy who had actual production knowledge said that existing catalog offerings (including the few 10 inch barrels, blue only) were expected to remain the same, and will continue to be manufactured. Fox ridge outfitters, aka TC custom shop, is less than 100 yards away from TC's factory, and is wholly owned by TC. I didn't see any metal working machinery there, nor space to house it. My guess is that any "discontinued" barrels will still be made the same and sold for a higher price under the guise of "custom". When I asked, without hiding my frustration, what was the delay with the G2, I was told that TC was busy catching up on demand for the Omega muzzle loader. Good tactic to yield nice long production runs and increase inventory turns - wait until there is a significant amount of demand for the product and make a huge batch. By the way, Fox Ridge Outfitter's prices on general hunting, shooting, clothing gear is ridiculously high, in my observation. For example, Harris BR model bipods for $74.95. Encore blue frames for $385. | |||
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Thought I'd bring this back up! Check out this link http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=Firearms&dept2=CONTENDER Looks like they may discontinue the 10" and 21" in favor of 12" and 23". Look at the prices | |||
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this is the link to the "frames" Let's order a few! http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=Firearms&dept2=CONTENDER&dept3=FRAMES | |||
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Thompson Center has now said it will be May 2003 before any will hit the street | |||
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Jules, what is this, the 7th or 8th delivery date? Or more? Pretty sad state of affairs. Mike | |||
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quote:Sure is Mike. The worse part is showing us a complete product and not letting us have it. The picture of the carbine version in the American Rifleman looks like a small encore. Don't look bad at all. The wait continues | |||
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On the topic of Custom barrels from TC, reminding those involved that it only takes an order for 5 barrels to get a new chambering. Case in point is the 300 Whisper Rimmed. I was number 5 and the reamer has been ordered. I used to live 15 minutes from the factory and it was neat to go up there. Yes, Fox Ridge is high priced. Most times when you go to a retail store provided by the manufacturer, you can expect high prices. I now live near Dayton, OH which of course is much lower in the anatomy of the country, real low as a matter of fact and miss NH a bunch. Especially my bud Mike Sirois. Was great working with him. Mr. DW | |||
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