Take orders for custom barrels? No way. I'm dodging all the flak that would ensue if I took custom orders. I'd get pilloried just like poor old Dave is getting.

Good grief this all sounds sooooo familiar. Been there, done that years ago.

Different day, same old "you know what." The custom gun work situation hasn't changed a bit since I went belly up making barrels to custom order back in '88.

All I can say to the demand syndrome is if all of you don't like the situation, get in there yourself and let's see how YOU do as a super human custom gunsmith.

Tip: The SAAMI spec stuff.... know what the throat length is supposed to be, then grind off the throat section of the reamer and throat separately "to SAAMI spec." No new reamer is required, and removing the throat section is as sophisticated as a trip to the bench grinder or a few minutes with a Diamond EZE Lap taking it down.

Got any clue the years and hard work it took Dave and others to learn their skills? I do.

Mike

Mike Bellm wrote:
"All I can say to the demand syndrome is if all of you don't like the situation, get in there yourself and let's see how YOU do as a super human custom gunsmith."

Mike-
I have no desire to do it myself. That what we pay you guys for.

But when I pay for something, I do expect for my directions -- and the specifics we agreed upon -- to be followed. (That's why I provided a detailed spec sheet with my payment)

In my studio, if I lose someone's order (which I have done during the busy seasons), I call, e-mail or write and get the info I need before proceeding. And if I mess up and have work late nights or pay a rush shipping charge to get it to them when I promised, I do so -- out of my own pocket. More than half of my custom gun items never got close to the time frame I was given. I'm not talking a week or two over. I'm talking months. My philosophy: If a shop can't turn it out on time, don't tell the customer you can...honest and reality checks are paramount here.

But back to the issue: If I lose something, I just don't order what I think the customer may want. And I feel anyone I do business should do the same in that situation -- or I don't do business with them again, esp. when a good chunk of change ($368.50 for barrel & forend) is involved.

My work order was lost -- that's plain and simple. The barrel and forend were nowhere near what I had ordered. And it doesn't take a "superhuman" to realize that.

[ 12-31-2002, 11:50: Message edited by: Bobby Tomek ]

I am compelled to come forth with this information because of the previous dialog.

I was tempted to go to DVH for a custom T/C barrel or two since I live in Arizona, although not in the Phoenix area. I traveled two hours to DVH's shop to check it out personally, and was appalled at the mess I saw - I mean REALLY APPALLED. After talking to DVH personally and looking at the filthy, trashed-out, nuclear fall-out zone he calls a gun shop, in my opinion, I would have had rocks in my head to buy anything there. His web site is very misleading. 'Nuff said.

Now that's off my chest, I feel better. :-)

I hope everyone who has a problem in dealing with DVH gets it worked out to their satisfaction - GOOD LUCK!

Javelina

Javelina,

Well, all I can say is that I hear Fred Smith of Bullberry runs operations out of the equivelant of a chicken koop, Guy Malmborg does his work in a basement, and Mike's shop is not much bigger than my living room. Now some are quite a bit neater than others...

Sometimes the masters can be a bit eccentric - Consider that Italian High Renaissance artist Michelangelo Buonarroti actually wore the same pair of boots for weeks at a time while painting the Sistine chapel [over a four year period]- so bad was the condition of his feet that his skin would flake off at the removal of the boots!

Regarding Mike's sentiments above, consider also that Michelangelo once said:

"I cannot live under pressures from patrons, let alone paint."
-- Michelangelo, quoted in Vasari's "Lives of the Artists"

Understandable when one considers that Pope Julius [who commisioned the Sistine chapel to be decorated by the artist] initially asked that Michelangelo make "beautiful sculptures" within the Sistine Chapel. Halfway through the process of producing such sculptures, Pope Julius completely changed his mind, and asked that Michelangelo instead paint the roof of Sistine Chapel. Talk about catering to whims!

Back to the gun smiths who create our desires out of metal and wood: All of these above mentioned guys put out excellent work [Malmborg recently rebarreled a Rem 581 with a .920 bullbarrel for me, and I will be posting results soon - look and shoots GOOD] so I would merely suggest we overlook their sometimes minor, sometimes odd, or eccentric, and even outlandish idiosyncrasies, and look strictly to their work as the measure of their skill.

In this regard, the barrel I purchased from Dave Van Horn [a 24" 223 rem bull barrel - Contender] is aesthetically and dimensionally everything he said it was. I will be reporting on it's accuracy later in the spring.

Sean VHA,

I don't know how your pseudo-intellectual comparison of historical minutia and David Van Horn's shop conditions plays to everyone else, but I for one find your tone pompous and antagonistic. If your aim is to eloquently talk DOWN to the rest of us, me in particular, save it - I'm not interested. You may find it hard to believe, but there are others of us who are educated, erudite and quite capable of intelligent thought. It is clear to me that your comments were precipitated by the fact that my opinion stepped on your toes because you own David Van Horn's products. Please feel free to buy, own, sell and trade any quantity of Mr. Van Horn's products that makes you happy. I certainly have no problem with that at all. As a matter of fact, on your behalf, I have every hope that your Van Horn products are everything you paid for and everything you wanted them to be.

As a point of information, if I feel the urge and/or necessity to step on your toes, rest assured I will approach you personally and very directly while doing just that - without hesitation - you will never have any doubts about my intentions.

I did not relate anything that was hearsay, I made it perfectly clear that I made the effort to go to David Van Horn's shop and look for myself before formulating my opinion. Unlike you, I did not say "I hear" anything, I made no comparisons between David Van Horn and the way anyone else does business, even though I have an excellent grasp of the way most of the custom folks operate.

A word of advice, before you try to peddle your pseudo-intellectualism to those of us you consider to be little people beneath your feet, always remember one thing - opinions are very similar to assholes, that is to say, some of them stink. I would say yours falls into that category. I don't know how you have acquired the notion that you are in a place to lecture the rest of us, but don't make the mistake of trying to lecture me.

Get off your high-horse sonny, otherwise you run a substantial risk of someone knocking you off it. There are those who will do so without hesitation.

Another word of friendly advice, watch who you talk down to, some of us, I for one, don't take it kindly.

Javelina

I apologize for some of my cras remarks about folks and the trade. What prompted that was the fact that Dave Van Horn appears to be one of the better alternatives for custom barrels, especially in regard to price. I feel it is perhaps a bit short sighted to make a custom 'smith jump through the hoops when the reward is on the small side of the price range. "Make" is perhaps not the best description either, since in our eagerness to please our customers, we sometimes let our mouths overload our butts, true? Saying "No" on the head end is sometimes difficult to do, but even more difficult is keeping tract of every detail.... like perhaps saying a 28" blank is no problem while thinking one is on hand already when in fact it isn't and taking the time to make one becomes a problem with everything else going on. Dave did drop the ball on you, and I hope you will work it out with him, but cranking up the heat tends to be counterproductive. It only adds to the tension and frustration and is discouraging to all concerned. Beating him to death on the forum doesn't solve the problem, even though it is a forewarning to others to be prepared for such things.

And Bobby, I agree that losing a work order and "shooting in the dark" finishing the job is pretty fool hardy on Dave's part and an invitation for trouble. We tend to make our own problems.

Javelina, two points.

1) One of the greatest contributors to our store of shooting knowledge was P.O. Ackley. His shop literally WAS a chicken coop and was where many notables got their start working under Ackley, including one that comes to mind, Dick Cassull. There were quite a few others, but this one comes to mind. Dirty? You bet. Dingy? You bet. I have seen a lot of farm outbuildings that were much neater and cleaner. And in the 10 years I had him for a mentor, I never once saw him him in anything but bib overalls until his funeral in August, 1989, in Salt Lake City.

I have never been inside Bullberry's shop, which does indeed resemble a normal, south facing chicken coop. I have been in Virgin Valley's shop, and it is relatively clean, but obviously a busy place. The grinding shop I use quite a bit locally is crammed with equipment, and I do mean crammed. It is a fairly large shop, but they recently moved machinery from another shop of theirs under one roof. Every time I am there he apologizes for the place being a mess, although it is pretty well kept. And every time, I tell him the same thing, "I'll begin to worry when it is all neat and clean." It means you have nothing better to do than clean. BTW, they turn out top notch, precision work.

Malmborg's basement may not pass muster either, but it is a WORK shop, not a showcase. Tools are in place, floor is clean enough, guns are racked, equipment kept clean, well lit, etc., but it is not a showroom. But he is the ONLY gunsmith I know personally that I have never heard anything bad said about..... in regard to the person or to his work.

2) We spend good money sending kids to college where they are usually required to take humanities subjects like history, psychology, sociology, and philosophy courses for some odd reason... perhaps to learn something about our species and separate ourselves from lower forms of life a bit farther. I personally like the insights brought from the past by a critical thinker who can apply parallels to present problems. Understanding ourselves and situations tends to tone down the savage beast in us that wants to choke the livin' $@#$U out of someone.

Lately I have found myself getting rather rude with people who just seem to refuse to think, and frankly find insights that divert attention toward more objective thinking quite helpful.

I have read quite a few similar posts by Sean over the past couple years and rather like what he has to say. Shooting is not just about guns.

Happy New Year to All.

Mike

Oh, and my shop.... it is smaller than Sean's living room, I hope. The shop itself measures 14'x8.' I know. I built it.

It stinks like oil and so do my ratty work clothes.

Lots of metal chips on the mill, the lathe, and the floor. The work bench is a 2x12" about 4' long bolted to the wall.

Javelina, I am sure you would not like it, so I'll not invite you in.

Mike

Shame on me, I could not resist this one... it came in an email today.

"Dialog of Diogenes and Alexander the Great ..........
>
> Diogenes Spent His Days Walking The Streets Of Athens, With A Lighted
> Lantern -- Looking For An Honest Man!
>
> He Never Found One!
>
> One time Alexander the Great came to Athens; he had heard about Diogenes.
> Diogenes was the man who walked the streets of Athens, Greece, during the
> day time, with a lighted lantern -- looking for an honest man.
>
> Diogenes lived in a large tub! He never found an honest man, but in the
> process of looking he exposed many liars and was known as a member of the
>
> School of Cynics.
> This day Alexander went to pay a visit to Diogenes.
>
> Diogenes: It was morning, just time of dusk: I heard voices and marching
> horses, I came out of my (pithos = large tub) tub and saw Alexander and his
> horsemen. I lay down in front of my tub, feeling the warm sun.
> Alexander and the horsemen stopped, and he came to me. He greeted me and I
> did the same, then he stared at me for a long time without saying anything.
> I looked at him as well, he was young, very young, almost a child.
>
> Then Alexander asked:
>
> Alexander The Great: It is true that you live in that tub? or it is just
> one of those pranks philosophers do in order for the people to talk and
> admire them?
>
> I will answer with a question, Alexander! Is it true you want to conquer
> Persia, and so unit all Greeks under your leadership? or do you do all this
> just for the sake of getting the admiration of the people?
> Alexander liked my answer! He smiled, touched my tub and said:
> One tub full of wisdom.
>
> I liked his words and I felt flattered, but quickly replied:
> I prefer one drop of luck, than a tub full of wisdom, great King!
> Sometimes wisdom drives you to a bitter taste of vanity, and all your works
> will stop in death! and one drop of luck can open streets you never could
> imagine and give you happiness you never knew!
>
> Alexander understood every word and knew the meaning of luck in life better
> than anyone; then he came closer to Diogenes and said:
>
> I would like to do something very important for you, Diogenes.
> I know you chose this kind solitaire life, but I think that sometimes in
> your life you want something better. Ask me, what you want and it will be a
> pleasure for me to give it to you.
>
> Alexander stood in front of Diogenes while hiding the sun; Diogenes gave
> him the following answer:
>
> I want only one thing Alexander. You stand in front of me, and you're
> hindering the sun, so, don' t take from me the thing that you can not give me!
>
> For Alexander was hindering Diogenes' ability to find honesty -- and could
> not, himself, show Diogenes where it might be found!
> How wise he was, the man who looked, but could not find honesty!
> Like Diogenes, I carry a lighted torch -- a lantern that shines the light
> of truth into the shadows of fraud!"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Someone else from AR here was on my case about my attitude, rightfully so.

The following struck home... different source mind you, totally unrelated to anything here.

"Sometimes wisdom drives you to a bitter taste of vanity, and all your works
> will stop in death!"

The question is: Is it vanity in my case or simply the fact that I don't let the tail wag the dog? Like I told the one "on my case" if you see this old dog starting to wag very much, it means he's about to quit (due to lack of interest).

The fact is that for all the wealth of knowledge we THINK we have acquired shooting and reloading for years and years, we are still learning, all of us. Until we, all of us, can honestly say there is something we don't know or understand, the ghost of Diogenes is still looking for an honest man if he's prowling about yet.

Mike

Javelina-
To me, I could care less what Van Horn's shop looks like. What I care about is the finished product. If someone saw our work room (customers are not allowed in there due to exposed glass edges, cutters and unfinished pictures) during the busy seasons, they may think it looks rather unorganized -- no, make that "messy -- as well.

I have another of Van Horns' barrels, and eveything about it is PERFECT.

I have decided not to send the 6.5x55 barrel back and wait two or more months for another. He received the forend Monday. It can't be as I wanted either, but at least he will finish it, pillar bed it and remove excess wood where necessary. (I may even order another forend so that it can be properly set up with a hanger bar.)

Will I order from him again? Perhaps...and part of that depends how long it takes for the forend.

I do feel that everyone deserves a little leeway now and then, and part of my sentiment here is that I know he can create some wonderful products. I didn't mean for this thread to become a stoning of anyone; I simply wanted to show what can happen in the custom gun world, EVEN when everything is in writing.

Also, as to your lashing out at Sean: you totally misread him. He's one of the nicest and most intelligent fellows you'll find -- and his posts support that as well. I've read his posts for a few years now and even had a couple of deals with him, and I can tell you he did not mean the post to be demeaning to anyone.

Along this thread...
Considering the way my garage looks right now, I must be an artistic genius!


steve

To Mike Bellm,

Since you feel the urge to join the fray even though it has nothing to do with you, four points:

1. As usual, you have summoned the ghost of P.O. Ackley to an issue and place where he cannot possibly be needed and/or useful. Doesn't he get a little tired of you still dragging him around? Let him rest in peace, he'll undoubtedly thank you as will the rest of us. Also, his magnificent body of work speaks very well of him and I myself seriously doubt if your habit of continuously running him up the flagpole to bolster your egotistical ranting does much for his legacy, although the rest of us understand the reasons for you wanting to be considered one of "the notables" who "got their start working under Ackley." Coat-tails are a wonderful thing, eh? P.O. Ackley's have gotten very threadbare, it's time for you to let go now. I respect your work, not your philosophy.

2. After reading your weekly dissertations on the insurmountable challenges of being in the custom services business, there are many of us (and I speak for quite a few people who lament your endless whining in print) who grow extremely weary of reading your disjointed meanderings on how difficult it is to make a living, pardon my error, EXTRACT a living from those of us who: (1) know nothing, (2) could not ever possibly know anything about what we want from someone in business when we lay out our hard-earned funds, and (3) are constantly at odds with your efforts to make money doing all the horrible things necessary to accomplish your goal. Good God man, if you want to continue doing the type of work you do, just do it! Stop whining, respect yourself and be a man - rest assured, we will all thank you and respect you for that. This long-suffering routine is so old now that it has moss on its north side and it's riddled with holes from dry-rot. Who knows? You may even garner some measure of respect through the old saw that "actions speak louder than words." Now there's something old that you could run up the flagpole - at least it would be new from you! All this notwithstanding, let your pride dictate to you what it must - we will understand.

3. I seem to note a sarcastic reference to someone here in Arizona who it seems ruffled your feathers at some point. You do not speak to that directly, but I did want to point out one small and insignificant item to you (it's probably the only thing that I could possibly know that you seemingly do not). The U.S. Postal Service address abbreviation for Arizona is "AZ" rather than "AR" which is designated for Arkansas, I hope that is helpful to you.

I'm sure the good folks in Arkansas will be relieved to know that the shadow of Your Arrogance's discontent is not falling upon them, but here in Arizona upon us. I can live with that, somehow I think we will manage to survive.

4. Speaking to the issue of you choosing not to extend an invitation to me to enter your shop, and you may take this to the bank of your choice, I had honestly never even considered it.

To Sean VHA,

I accept your apology since it appears to offered with honest intentions. Thank you.(Note: Sword back in sheath, ball-point pen retracted, fingers off keyboard, mouth closed, ungloved hand extended, ball in your court)

I will not reconsider my observation and opinion of David Van Horn's shop. I am knowledgeable about much more than I have made public regarding that situation, and it would be ludicrous to think that knowing what I know about David Van Horn, his personal and legal situation, and his shop, that my position would be even minutely influenced by the "light of other competent and reputable smiths." My opinion is, and I stand by it with hearty conviction of personal knowledge that you admittedly do not have, that any comparison between David Van Horn and any of history's great artists/artisans is not substantiated by sufficient empirical fact to draw a positive conclusion. When all is said and done, that comparison results in something that is, in my opinion. . .sorely lacking.

Again, 'nuff said.

Despite our differences of opinion, I wish you a happy and prosperous new year.

To Bobby Tomek,

You are correct that David Van Horn has the capability to manufacture products that are of suitable quality to produce excellent results for some of his patrons. My issues and opinions are elsewhere - yet certainly you should conduct your business with him as you see fit and I have no disagreement with any of your statements or actions. It is plainly and simply not my business, nor did I speak critically of you or your dealings with David Van Horn. I stated my opinion about firsthand knowledge and observation and that is the extent of my involvement.

I hope you reach a satisfactory conclusion in this situation with Mr. Van Horn.

Javelina

My responses preceded by "Mike." "Javelina" precedes his.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Javelina:
[QB]To Mike Bellm,

Javelina:

Since you feel the urge to join the fray even though it has nothing to do with you,

Mike:

I've been around the block in the trade for a long time, up at times and down at rock bottom at times. I know my subject well, but I also know the people involved quite well, some more than others, of course, but the general make up of shooters is just as much a part of the business as the cutting oil and metal chips. I do have something to offer, and feel compelled to throw in some balance from time to time.

Javelina:

four points:

1. As usual, you have summoned the ghost of P.O. Ackley to an issue and place where he cannot possibly be needed and/or useful. Doesn't he get a little tired of you still dragging him around? Let him rest in peace, he'll undoubtedly thank you as will the rest of us. Also, his magnificent body of work speaks very well of him and I myself seriously doubt if your habit of continuously running him up the flagpole to bolster your egotistical ranting does much for his legacy, although the rest of us understand the reasons for you wanting to be considered one of "the notables" who "got their start working under Ackley." Coat-tails are a wonderful thing, eh? P.O. Ackley's have gotten very threadbare, it's time for you to let go now. I respect your work, not your philosophy.

Mike:

It is easy to say let go of the Ackley connection, but it is also rather interesting that practically EVERY one who wants to be a "cartridge designer" emulates him in one way or another. Ackley is one of the main cornerstones in much of our thought regarding cartridges today. I did have 10 years with P.O. as a mentor, it DID highly influence me, and through direct contact it has influenced a lot of others as well. It is no coincidence that two of the most prominent custom barrel makers are located in Utah.

One of the most significant things P.O. taught me was to THINK, and it certainly is not the way 99.44% of shooters, writers, and even the vast majority of "gunsmiths" think. It was not until after he died August 23, 1989 that I finally realized what he had done to me, for me, or whatever it was. Whether it was intentional on his part or just his way, I do not know. But after being around him for 10 years, it dawned on me that he taught me to think critically and really "get into" what is going on with barrels, chambers, cases, dies, reamers, rifling buttons, cut rifling, and jillions of related topics, not the least of which is the nature of people who shoot. At age 55, I am still trying to "grow up," and only regret I did not come into the trade with the integrity P.O. demonstrated in his late 70's when I first met him face to face. In his 30s, he may have had some of my same failings.... I don't know.

Whether you puke your guts out at my mention of Ackley or not is not my concern. He was and still is a major factor today with many direct influences on Contenders and Encore whether you see it or not. Yes, I would like to be of more credit to him than I am. But will I forget or fail to mention him? No way. I have not forgotten my roots and will continue to give credit where it is due and not try to claim it all for myself like some of the TC icons in the trade do.... blatantly plageurizing the work of others, then patently stating it is completely their work, as well as threatening to sue others in order to continue to defraud people.

Javelina:

2. After reading your weekly dissertations on the insurmountable challenges of being in the custom services business, there are many of us (and I speak for quite a few people who lament your endless whining in print) who grow extremely weary

Mike:

My name is clearly in front of anything I write. Don't burden yourself by reading it. Be a big boy and walk on.

Javelina:

of reading your disjointed meanderings on how difficult it is to make a living, pardon my error, EXTRACT a living from those of us who: (1) know nothing, (2) could not ever possibly know anything about what we want from someone in business when we lay out our hard-earned funds, and

Mike:

Then explain the perennial problems that persist among shooters if the solutions are such common knowledge, or even understood enough for a few to fully help the rest of the fraternity. It just isn't so.

Javelina:

(3) are constantly at odds with your efforts to make money doing all the horrible things necessary to accomplish your goal. Good God man, if you want to continue doing the type of work you do, just do it! Stop whining, respect yourself and be a man - rest assured, we will all thank you and respect you for that. This long-suffering routine is so old now that it has moss on its north side and it's riddled with holes from dry-rot.

Mike:

You mean stop describing the lives of those who have to jump when you pull the strings? Sheesh. If you guys didn't have gunsmiths to put down when they fail to deliver, what would you talk about? Whatever it is, it certainly would not likely be very technically correct. Worse than a bunch of old women sometimes. We need the facts about sources related to our shooting interests, and a bit of objectivity goes a long way. Look at how long this thread is just because someone dropped the ball.

Javelina:

Who knows? You may even garner some measure of respect through the old saw that "actions speak louder than words." Now there's something old that you could run up the flagpole - at least it would be new from you! All this notwithstanding, let your pride

Mike:

REF "pride," please rephrase that as "involvement."

dictate to you what it must - we will understand.

Mike:

All the actions in the world don't explain processes that elude the vast majority. But by putting out the information, there is a % of people that are better understanding what is going on with their Contenders and Encores, which btw lend applications to all other firearms, and dealing with these people is a real pleasure. They understand more than what the magazines throw out and all the "whaaaalll, I think...." thrown around on forums. I don't have it in balance, but changes are in the wind.

Get in touch with humanity and out of your ivory tower. Custom gunsmiths are not whores. They are people trying to please you in every way, but they are still people and still fail. THAT is the message.

Guess that is the reason the Missouri church marquis that read "Only sinners are welcome" stuck in my mind.

Javelina:

3. I seem to note a sarcastic

Mike:

It was not sarcastic at all, but respected the privacy of the individual who posts here. I even said his comments to me were "rightfully so."

Javelina:

reference to someone here in Arizona who it seems ruffled your feathers at some point.

Mike:

Wrong. AR is commonly read to mean Accurate Reloading. After nearly 24 years of shipping to every state in the nation on a regular basis, give me some credit and stop talking down to me like you accused Sean of doing to you. I lived in Missouri, just over the AR line, and just might know the difference. I have also spent some time in AZ, but regretfully now, I did not look up Van Horn while in the Phoenix area.


Javelina:

You do not speak to that directly, but I did want to point out one small and insignificant item to you (it's probably the only thing that I could possibly know that you seemingly do not). The U.S. Postal Service address abbreviation for Arizona is "AZ" rather than "AR" which is designated for Arkansas, I hope that is helpful to you.

Mike:

Talk about stilted arrogance talking "down to people." This has to be a classic.

Javelina:

I'm sure the good folks in Arkansas will be relieved to know that the shadow of Your Arrogance's discontent is not falling upon them, but here in Arizona upon us. I can live with that, somehow I think we will manage to survive.

4. Speaking to the issue of you choosing not to extend an invitation to me to enter your shop, and you may take this to the bank of your choice, I had honestly never even considered it.

Mike:

Why am I not surprised?

Mike

[ 01-02-2003, 04:22: Message edited by: Mike Bellm ]

Well after reading and being part of this thread the one thing for certain.
Using Big words and philosophy to thrash one another in NO WAY proves an IQ higher than ones age.
People get upset when our toys dont work....RIGHTLY SO. It infringes on our quality time away from hectic work schedules after we have spent BIG dollars on our new toy.
Be we all make mistakes and public humiliating of a person or bussiness because of it is Childish.
Guess if we first take the problem up with the OFFENDING shop or individual and give them a chance then less bad opinions will be formed by others due to our OWN anger and rage.

Why not just Move on......this thread has gone too far...over a Human error

Fireball

[ 01-02-2003, 05:29: Message edited by: Fireball ]

Why not just Move on......this thread has gone too far...over a Human error

Fireball[/QB][/QUOTE]

Fireball,
I agree, lets move on!!!! this is starting to look alot like Greybeards site did several months back.
Mark

I wonder if the person who has gone out of their way to cause such a stir in this issue is a writer under another name.
LouisB

Until I picked up stuff, and moved some cans of sorted brass, I couldn't hardly get around in just my loading area never mind the other "shop" area.

One person I know that turned out many a great shooting gun worked in a small room in his basement, and it was of such a size you could reach into cabinets behind you while working at the lathe, and were only two or three steps away from anything you might need no matter where you were in the room and many a round of loaded ammo and quite a few long guns came in for repair and went out fixed as well as built from pieces, parts, and barrels brought in by the guy in the (then new) brown truck.
He did send stuf out for bluing etc, but I would put his plain shooting pieces up against most.

LouisB

I will say most older shooters and gunsmiths do seem to get a "bit crusty".

Hell' I'm getting to the age that I'm getting there myself, though you'd never know it!

Bobby,

I have one of Dave's barrels. I like it. It is a 28 gauge shotgun barrel. It took longer than anybody else's on the first TC-L buy. No, it isn't exactly like I ordered it. It is longer (and good thing) and the dovetail locks are really brazed on and "longer" necessitating alteration of the forearm I use. I didn't like that much but it works.

Mr. Van Horn seems to be a bit older (and perhaps a bit more subject to such afflictions as might accompany aging), doesn't seem to be an organizer but does do good work. He is THE best deal out there.

Will I order from him again? I don't know. IMO, you MUST have him make it right. If you don't or can't he might lose another sale to me. Maybe more than one other sale.

To me, your problem is indicative of a broader issue. To my mind, custom means the way I want it. If the person offering the service can't do it that way, tell me. I've not gotten another barrel since because of that. VVCG and Bullberry have a good product (I've seen the VVCG work and own 2 Bullberry barrels) and I know good product when I see it as I was once an apprentice machinist (given that the materials are correct for the application). However, the price is enough to make me pause in my TC addiction. On top of that I've heard all the same comments about these makers as well.

I think that the custom makers should be concerned. Sure, mistakes happen. A mistake now and again is expected if you are doing something (only those who do nothing make no mistakes). Yet, I see a trend to expecting an apology to make up for poor service/product. It doesn't. Also, as we cheapskates (and I mean people like myself) slough off the TC bandwagon, will enough new guys come along to keep their businesses viable? Will TC's continuous delay of the G2 really sound the death knell for the Contender (or Contender size) system? Don't misunderstand me, I think that the prices are in the range of reasonable, they just aren't justifiable to me in my own situation. Life experience tells me that there are many others with my concerns.

Personally, I don't see the Encore as having a big price advantage over, say, the Ruger No. 1. A big part of that is per barrel cost. A lot of users aren't "polygamous" barrel owners they are more the serial "monogamist" type. Maybe not the best analogy, but a LOT of owners have a couple of barrels per frame at most and experiment by buying and selling barrels, having at most one or two at a time (and a lot of this is due to cost). A gun like the No. 1 is tolerable in cost in this type of usage (and in many ways superior in strength) and LOTS of people are out there to compete for rebarreling and reboring.

I guess I've digressed but rather than ax this I'm going to post. I don't even know just where I'm going with this but I think I see the custom Encore/Contender barrel makers pricing and "poor servicing" themselves out of the market. Not all costs are within their control but SERVICE is and they just don't seem to care.

To Mike Bellm,

Your refusal to let go of P.O. Ackley's coat-tails is as laughable as your weak and senseless comparisons of yourself to him. Due to your endless and empty diatribe involving him, I am sad for Mr. Ackley's memory. I am appalled and never cease to be amazed at your continuous efforts to lift yourself to the level of Mr. Ackley's other proteges - despite your obvious and less-than-stellar track record. You can be sure that we, as the public in general, are most certainly cognizant of the fact that you seem completely insensitive to what you are doing to his memory. I can only say shame, shame on you.

Regarding you statement that if I don't like what you write, I shouldn't read it; bravo, you are very eloquent and I'm very impressed, but let me point out that if you would refrain from interspersing your ramblings with the conversations that others are having, we would not have to do all the work of sorting out and stepping over all your drivel, would we? You don't see Gary Reeder, J.D. Jones, Fred Smith, et al butting in do you? Of course not, they have actual work to do and that would lower them to your level. Let me remind you here that they are all successful at what they do, they don't butt into other people's business, they actually perform enough useful work to make money for their families instead of wasting their time pointlessly injecting their unwanted personal views into the conversations of others on forums in the hope of getting enough business to put food on the table. No wonder you never have any money and those who order from you have to wait so long, you never do any work, you're too busy either running your mouth or typing out your time-wasting philosophy of life! I guess that's why you are positioned where you are in this life - some people don't know when they're not wanted. In case I'm not being clear here, that would be you.

Now, to the matter of geography and our knowledge of it. Although I'm sure you do not remember it (since you obviously have a very selective memory), I also lived for some time in Southern Missouri near the Arkansas line. As always, you distinguished yourself there and left things as you always do when you make one of your seemingly necessary, frequent and hurried relocations in total disarray with people relating quite unpleasant things about you after you're gone (what's it like to be on the run, who's after you, how many times have you been sued anyway?). How does it feel to be unwanted everywhere you go? What a sad way to be. . .what a sad way to live a life. . .your family must be so proud of you. . .

It is interesting that I have received a number of email contacts from people who saw you butt into my business here (even several who only lurk here but frequent the Graybeard site) who evidently would rejoice in the streets if you did not frequent any forums, anywhere. I know that is too much to ask of a person such as yourself and I advised most of them to let you continue to run amuck all you like. Personally, I enjoy your propensity to act as cannon fodder for thinking people (how will Mike Bellm self-destruct today?) - keep up the good work, I know I appreciate the entertainment you provide.

Is this message personal? Yes, it is. Is this a personal attack on you? Yes, it is and it is my very distinct pleasure to convey that to you in no uncertain terms. Is this a fine Christian attitude? No, it isn't and I'm sure I need some scripture, perhaps you'd like to join me? Naahhh, what was I thinking? You'd just think you knew more than God and would get mad at him if he said you shouldn't be so arrogant and rude - leopards don't change their spots but we remain hopeful.

Again, it is always a pleasure to see and hear others laugh at you behind your back (and you can be sure that it happens on a fairly consistent basis whenever you start up), and it is always entertaining to to watch your antics as you continuously bumble through life. Please do us all a favor and write a book, an autobiography (you obviously feel compelled to type like a madman on forums) - as you read it you may find that you are as entertained by your life as a "gunsmith" as the rest of us are. I will propose a slightly plagiarized title for this future guaranteed non-best-seller with my most humble apologies to Brownell's (they are real gunsmiths in case you were wondering), here it is: (drum roll please) "Gunsmith Stinks."

One final item, with regard to your ever so brilliant observation that I may be talking down to people, you in particular, you can bet the farm on it. Generally, I don't like to do that because it lowers me to the level where you seem to claim exclusive and eminent domain, but since you have set an example for me to follow, I will make an exception in your case and I see no reason not to talk down to someone who is so deserving and who makes it so easy.

The entertainment you have provided has been great, but I find that I have grown tired of pointing out your flaws for now, there are just too many for me to fathom - this is getting too much like a job. Just a point of information, for your benefit, I don't work anymore, I don't have to. I worked hard and creatively for a few years to become successful. That having been accomplished, I retired at a very early age so I could have the freedom to spend all the time on internet forums that I wanted - without having to take food out of my family's mouth due to not working. I am able to do that now, I enjoy it very much and suggest that plan to you (What was I thinking, you're too old to start working hard! It appears you are doing what I did only in you are doing it in reverse, you'll wait until you're about seventy five years old to start making some real money!) I have also found that, this message thread notwithstanding, unlike you, I do not like to live life as an egomaniac, so I will go back to my quiet, peaceful and unassuming life. . .until you again feel the urge to butt into business that isn't yours and certainly doesn't concern you in the least. Here's a tip for you from me: Mind your own business, get off the forums, quit bothering other people and wasting their time with your unwanted input before someone really gets offended by your idiocy and who is far less good-natured than I am - you might actually try doing some work - support the family, be a man and work toward trying to be someone the rest of us might even care about. If you can't do that, I would say you're even more of a lost cause than the rest of us think you are.

Any time you feel like shooting your mouth off again, let me know - I will be glad to accomodate you. . .since you don't impress me in the slightest. Given your predisposition to arrogance and rudeness, my personal guess is that you have very little chance of doing so in the future. Hang in there, I'm sure if you keep looking long enough, you may be able to find someone who might be willing to be your friend and who won't sue you (you may want to consider a dog) - even after they find out how you are and how you treat people. . .naaahhhhh!

It's been a slice, but I have to give up on this thread now, I won't let you waste any more of my time, I have reloading to do. If you have good sense, you'll find something else more constructive to do also. Write if you get work.

Javelina

oh please oh please oh please end this drivel here and now. I think I speak for the sane majority on this board when I say that anyone is welcome to post here as long as they can add something to the conversation. Now there hasn't been a person on this forum that has been right 100% of the time so that is why we must apply critical THINKING (notice I said critical thinking and NOT critical SPEAKING!) to discern what seems reasonable and logical. Now, because both of those characteristics seem to be lacking the most reasonable thing to do would be keep personal attacks off this public forum and send them via email to the person concerned.

Javelina,

Everyone here has a right to speak up, and make a jackass of themselves. I must say, however, you have topped them all. Your comments were laughable. They show you to be the type that indeed must be �talked down to.�

I have not seen anyone on this board that has gone so far over the edge in attacking someone personally. The vast majority of people on this forum don't have a personal ax to grind with Mike. I in fact count him as a good friend.

In short I do hope you just fade away. Your comments have been less than useless to the TC shooting fraternity.

steve

Gotta agree with 1buba on this one. Keep your personal problems private. You're just wasting space. IMHO

This is not personal just an observation. I have done business with VVCG, Bullberry, Fox Ridge (Custom Shop), DVH and Bellm as well of course stock TC's and one other new guy on the block who at this point shall remain nameless. I have had problems with all of them except DVH and the new guy. By far, Bullberry was the worst but he made it right every time. My second DVH barrel should be coming along in the near future. All have seen fit to do their best to resolve any issues to my satisfaction. Problems I have had are much more serious than what I have seen from DVH. (Including marking the barrel to my order but chambering it in something else!)
It is my intention to utilize any and all of them to satisfy my addiction as time and money see's fit. I am only in customs and weird chamberings anymore so for sure all will continue to get my business.

off my soapbox,

Mr. DW

I also agree with Bubba on this one,
I don't know any of these custom barrel makers personaly and I do have barrels from all of then except DVH, this personal attack has gone way to far and I feel this is not the place for it.
Albert

WOW Javelina(aka Bill Graham on steroids)What did you have stuck up your butt today???You need to relax,pal,as you are WAY over the line.Why did Matt Graham use this forum to lure others in an experiment with his new forum ...never mind that,I'll just listen.

OK. I am usually not one to step in, but here are my thoughts on this now defunct topic:


I enjoy debates as much as the next guy, but this has become to far of topic even for me.

VV Dave, That's cute, and very appropriate!!
Hey Javelina, As one of my teens would say, "Chill out, man...." On a more serious note, although I don't have any personal contacts in AZ (Arizona, I believe), if you'd like, I'll be glad to make some phone calls in an effort to get you some help w/ "Anger Management". One question re: your comment, "It's been a slice, but I have to give up on this thread now, I won't let you waste any more of my time, I have reloading to do." Can I take that to me you won't be blessing us w/ your insight anymore? If that's the case, let me be the first to say, "Goodbye." Gary T.

My cat has more restraint than some of the people on this board. Give it up guys, shoot more and scream less and we will all be the better for it. Lets just chalk it up to cabin feaver and let it go at that. Regards...

Geez
What ever happened to the poor guy that started this thread ?

Smokin54-
The "guy that started this thread" has decided to keep the barrel, especially since now hearing that Dave has been ill. I'm having Dave "fix" the forend, though I really can no longer have the hanger bar setup with this forend due to the way it was set up. But it is now going to have the sling swivel stud, will be pillar bedded (instead of the hanger bar) and will be sanded and finished in a dull gloss.

If the barrel shoots like the 7TCU Contender barrel of Van Horn's that I have, I will be quite pleased, despite it not being what I ordered.

Way back when, some 70-odd posts ago, this thread began as an honest attempt to solicit opinion as to what others would do in this situation -- a situation in which I thought all bases were covered. Some have provided honest insight. But in parts of the thread, it has degraded to a point of no return, and I just wish we'd all let it die...