Hello All, Anyone have any experience with what minimal terminal velocities are required for proper expansion to occur with the following Hornady Bullets.

1. 7mm 139 gr SST interlock part # 28202
2. 7mm 120 gr. V-MAX part # 22810 Thanks

Al-

Welcome to the board!

The 139 grain SST requires around 1900 at impact to ensure expansion while the 120 grain V-Max, in its current design, will open down to around 1775 fps.

I should have added: If it's low-velocity expansion that you're after, the 120 and 140 grain Nosler BTs will open to around 1650 fps.

The Accubonds will open down to around 1825 fps.

Also, my figures are not based on any manufacturer's guidelines. These numbers come from actual shooting and testing.

While they are not the bullets you inquire about, here are a few more 7mm expansion results:

Bobby,

Thanks for the info. It was just what I needed. Mightily impressed with your empirical scrutiny and meticulous data store.

I've been entertaining working up some loads for a 338 Win Mag using the 160 gr Barnes. My enthusiasm has dampened somewhat after looking at your before and after of the TTSX. Hoping you have the best of it in the woods and on the range. Thanks Again.

Al-

You are quite welcome. Don't overlook the TSX and TTSX in calibers over .30. The larger frontal area seems to have a positive influence on actual expansion. It's the below-.30 offerings that need higher attendant velocities for optimum performance.

Up until recently, Barnes had been claiming full depth-of-cavity expansion down to 1600 fps, something I have never seen under actual field conditions. Apparently they have backed off that claim as I no longer see it in their marketing.

Here's a step down from the 7mms I posted previously. Both of these 6.5 bullets were shot into the same medium and at nearly-identical velocities (just over 2500 fps at impact).

I know which one I'd prefer for deer-sized game...

Thanks for all the info Bobby and the great photos. You da man.

I am going to be hunting Whitetails this year (if I get lucky enough to draw a tag in South Dakota that is) with a SST Super 14 7-30 Waters Handgun. This will be my first experience with the 7-30 Waters in a 14" Barrel.

Several years ago I hunted with a 10" Contender chambered in 7-30 Waters. My choice was 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with W-748 to a muzzle velocity of 2258 FPS. If memory serves me correctly I took 3 Whitetails with that 10" 7-30 Waters and my cousins husband used it to take a 4th.

I took a smaller 4x4 Whitetail Buck at really long range with that 10" 7-30 Waters. I figured the velocity at impact was 1740 FPS or so. I mesed up the shot and actually hit high, clipping the top of both shoulder blades and the bottom of the spine. Obviously the Buck dropped in it's tracks. Yes the bullet penetrated the Buck completely leaving about a quarter sized exit hole.

One of the other Deer shot with the 10" 7-30 Waters were more realisitic ranges and all but one where shot behind the shoulder through the lungs (the other one was shot in the head at 50 yards). In each case the exit holes through the off side were about the same as the Buck detailed above. None of these Whitetails shot through the lungs behind the shoulder dropped in their tracks.

In my new SST Super 14 7-30 Waters Contender I am again using the 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips but this time I am pushing them with H-4895. Muzzle velocity is 2436 FPS and 100 yard accuracy is quite good (average of 6 - 3 shot groups from the bench came in at .969").

Recently our Shooters Club had our annual Sight in Day / Fun Shoot. A few shooters that had never fired a T/C Contender Handgun asked if they could shoot my Contenders (SST Super 14 .223 & SST Super 14 7-30 Waters). We had empty Hodgdon Powder Jugs filled with water placed in the grass at 100 yards, Gallon Milk Jugs filled with Water at 200 yards and Steel Silhouettes at 200 & 300 yards. When these guys held where I told them to they never missed the Ram Silhouette at 300 yards.

Given the accuracy of this SST Super 14 7-30 Waters, and the previous experience with the 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips I am thinking 300 yards is not out of the question with this handgun provided a proper rest and shot presentation is offered.

Sorry I don't have any info on the Hornady Bullets. I guess I have always shot Nosler Ballistic Tips in my Speciality Pistols for some reason and they have never let me down.

Larry

Larry-

With your experience, shooting ability and the 120 grain BT at 2400+ fps, 300 yards is within the realm of possibility for a deer.

When does your season begin?

I am getting an itchy trigger finger waiting for the Texas general firearms season, which is still 2 months away.

Thanks Bobby.

Yep I got a long wait. Our season East of the Missouri River starts November 15th.

The Game, Fish & Parks really cut the number of licenses in this area this year, and they have eliminated all Double Tags. Might be tricky getting a license this year.

At any rate I think I am ready should I get a tag. Yeah I am sure I will get out and do a little more practicing before season, but that is the fun part.

Larry

Don't mean to highjack this thread but it is kind of on the same track.

Monday afternoon (11-17-08) at about sunset I managed to smack a medium sized Whitetail Doe at a lasered 200 yards with a 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip from my SST Super 14 7-30 Waters (Muzzle velocity of this load is 2436 FPS). The shot was about as perfect a presentation as a hangunner can hope for, perfectly broadside.

I settled the crosshairs of the 2x7x Burris LER Handgun Scope (set on 4x) midway top to bottom right behind the shoulder. When everything looked right I touched the 2 pound trigger on my G2 Contender. The bullet hit with the loudest THWACK I think I have ever heard from a bullet hitting a Deer. At the shot the Doe hit the ground only to regain her feet and turn around and started walking back where she had come from.

The doe covered 15 - 20 yards, turned going away from me heading into a patch of willows and collapsed. When I got to the doe she was stone dead.

I immediately noticed blood trickling out of the entrance wound and from here nose and mouth. When I moved the doe to get her into posistion to field dress here there was a pool of blood underneath her about a foot in diameter.

The bullet entered between two ribs hitting the middle of the lungs. The lungs were mush and the rib cage was full of blood. The bullet struck a rib bone dead center on exit and there was about a 25 cent piece size exit wound through the off side.

The next morning I skinned and quartered the Doe. It was then I saw the real damage that 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. While the bullet was placed behind the shoulder and the only bone hit was the rib bone on exit when I removed the off side front shoulder I could easily see the results of the 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. The hole through the off side was bigger on the outside than it was on the inside and the area between the rib cage and front shoulder was solid blood clots.

For the record the impact velocity and energy should have been 2023 FPS & 1091 FtLbs according to my ballistics program. At first I was disappointed in what I thought was lack of expansion with the 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip but after the skinning and quarter I was able to better see the damage done.

Actually after I skinned, quartered and had some time to reflect on the bullet performance, considering no bone was hit on entrance I think this was very good bullet performance.

Maybe Bobby will chime in here with any experiences he has with this bullet with a similar shot placement.

Larry

Larry-

Congrats on making a fantastic shot on that deer! A person doesn't make that shot without a lot of skill and shooting/practice time/experience under their belt.

The bullet performance is EXACTLY what I would have expected from the 120 grain BT. For me, it is THE bullet for the TCU, Waters and similar cartridges. It expands extremely well, destroys lots of tissue along the way and almost always exits. It's hard to find any other bullet capable of that type of performance at the range of velocities the 120 grain BT does it.

The last animal I shot with this bullet was a 150 pound wild hog at a shade under 200 yards. I was using my 20" 7mm Bullberry, and the MV of this load is right at 2650 fps.

The hog was slightly quartered to me. At the shot, I heard the audible thwack of bullet breaking bone, and the hog simply folded on the spot. The bullet broke the onside shoulder and asolutely demolished the lungs before exiting a few inches behind the opposite shoulder.

The exit was small, no larger than a quarter. But the damage done internally was impressive and typies what this bullet does.

On another hog a few years ago, I used a 10" 7 TCU in which the MV of the 120 grain BT was 2040 fps. A fairly large, 200+ pound hog I popped at app. 175 yards dropped on the spot. The bullet broke a rib going in, wrecked the lungs, broke 2 ribs on the opposite side and left a nickel-sized exit. At such a low remaining velocity, I consider that exceptional performance.

Again, CONGRATS on some very fine shooting!

Thanks for the kind words Bobby. Yep I have been at this Handgun Hunting thing for a few years (since 1982 to be exact). No matter how many Critters I shoot with Speciality Pistols it seems I still get the gitters every year before season and shoot 100 rounds or so practicing. But then it really isn't too much of a inconvience as I like to shoot (bet you couldn't have guessed that). I also think my shooting has improved since I switched to shooting a .22 LR Match Contender Handgun for my Indoor Rimfire Bench Rest Competition every winter.

Well the 7-30 Waters SCORED AGAIN this afternoon. This was kind of a wierd deal. The wife didn't really want to go hunting as she said she felt like she is getting a cold.

I said OK, we'll drive out to the White Rock Colony and sign the permission slip so I could hunt Deer and Coyotes on their land (which we did). Once that was done I told the wife we'd just do a little scouting this afternoon. I drove down to the Game, Fish & Parks Boat Landing for a look see. Above the Boat Landing the hill side is solid Cedar Trees.

As we were driving back out from the Boat Landing I spotted something along the edge of the Cedar Trees. I slammed on the brakes, grabbed the binoculars and sure enough it was a Deer.

I looked and looked and there was no antlers, but a really nice sized deer. I quickly made my way to a little stock dam below the cedar trees, got a good rest and one shot from the 7-30 Waters did the deed at 124 yards.

Turned out it was a buck with it's antlers broken off just above the bases. The buck was quartering towards me at a sharp angle so I put the crosshairs on the front edge of the near side shoulder and touched the trigger. At the shot the buck took off to the south (I was northeast of the buck) carrying one leg. The buck covered 30 - 40 yards and tipped over.

I will know more about the bullet performance after I get it hung up. It was getting dark on me and I had a long drag back to the blazer so I didn't waiste any time.

Update; I just finished hanging the buck from this afternoon. The bullet smashed through the on side shoulder, broke a rib, destroyed the lungs, angled back some, busted another rib leaving about a 1 1/2" exit wound. I am afraid this one may be a bit messing once I get it skinned, but the bullet did it's intended job.

Larry

Larry-

WOW! Congrats again!

But you do know that you are in trouble with the wife, right? Heck, you said you were only going to scout!

And then there she is, feeling a little under the weather, while you have to tend to a deer.

I am guessing chocolates and flowers might be in order...

Thanks Bobby. The way the wife was feeling after supper I am not sure Flowers or Chocolate will help. As a matter of fact I just came home from work and she is sleeping on the couch.

Larry

I hope she is feeling better very soon!

My wife has been fighting the flu or something similar for a few days, and she's been miserable. But at least the weekend is nearly here so she can rest up a bit.

When people realize what milder rounds do at modest speeds, and bullets that perform in that range, they understand why I had built a 7BR rifle in the past, 2878 mv w/120s.

When I shot a 10" and 14" TCU, the 120 solid base was my bullet of choice, today the Ballistic Tip would be the one, 120 grain. My 14 super took a small buck at 30 yds w/ a fireform load of around 2000 mv with a 140 ballistic tip, shot either hit a branch from a tree that was in front of the deer, or it took a step as I was holding at the neck shoulder juncture. Bullet hit far back, blood trail went 80-100 yds, drip drip drip, nothing excessive, found buck around 120 lb deer give/take, bullet showed positive expansion indicating to me, a said bullet fired from a 7/08 rifle was deer capable at 400-500 yds or more EASILY with shot placement.

Congrats, you are getting good results. FWIW, I shot a few deer with my 7BR rifle, not too hot loads with 120 hps and sp-Hornadys, also a 130 Speer flat base I believe as it was a tad more accurate. That 130 was doing about 2665 mv, dropped a deer running at 200 yds after my 10 yr old made a hit too far back, deer laid down around 150 yds, tried a head shot and hit the jaw....my bad. Follow up was running and the 4x Nikon found it's mark, dumped it. Good expansion at that range so it would be worth consideration, but the 120 b tip is what is about perfect IMHO for handgun 7's.

Now if Nos made a 120 or 130 accubond, for a lighter bullet 7/08 load or for handguns, it would be worth taking a hard look at....140s are just a little too loopy in trajectory and slower to expand from modest handgun rounds as Waters and TCU IMHO.

Again, congrats on fine shooting....enjoy dinner!

FYI, I shot a deer Wed. afternoon, 6.5x55, 130 accubond, last chrono load was around 2780mv, distance 250 steps, hit high under spine, DRT. At shot deer dropped on spot thru 6x42.

250 yd data shows....

2335 fps w 1574 ft. lbs.

Expansion, exit very prominent, I WILL be using many more accubonds on deer. I may have found my favorite bullet.... 200 yd 3-shot group was 1.1" from a Ruger #1 so I am

Thanks 6.5BR and CONGRATS to you as well.

UPDATE

I skinned & quartered the Buck from yesterday this morning. The damage was just as I anticipated. The surprising thing was as I was skinning the Buck the wife says "here's your bullet". The bullet jacket was between the rib cage and the hide. Yep just the jacket. The exit hole through the hide must have been from the lead core exiting.

The jacket appears to have expanded down to almost half of it's length before the lead core got sucked out.

The bullet path was as I outlined, through the on side shoulder, broke a rib, through the lungs broke another rib on exit.

I don't know if I should be happy or sad. THis is the very first bullet I have ever had seperate in a deer when fired from a speciality pistol. In the end I guess it is hard to argue with a dead deer.

Larry

Larry-

Thanks for the terminal performance info!

I wouldn't worry about the separation. This is what the BTs generally look like on the rare occasions I do get to recover one (thought hese are 6.5 120s):

-----

6.5 BR-

Congrats on dropping the deer with your 6.5x55, which just happens to be one of my all-time favorite calibers. That 6.5mm, 130 grain AB is a good one, but I feel the same as you do about the 7mm: a lighter 120 grain AB would be a great lineup addition.

Thanks Bobby.

I have an uncanny knack of shooting em right behind the shoulder and slipping the bullet in between the ribs without ever hitting bone. I have had that happen to me more times than I can count.

In the case of the Doe at 200 yards where the bullet (as usual) slipped into the chest cavity without hitting bone, but still did the deed is what excites me. Yep I have had to track a few deer shot with speciality pistols in which my bullets didn't expand.

Larry

120 vmax's are very accurate in my former 7BR rifle, but perhaps too thin jacketed, a heavier amax might do better.......

The old solid base 120s looked to be perfect, then replaced with b tips, and the jackets are supposed to be beefier than one would think.

SD, FWIW, Steve Timm, noted author/shooter IIRC used the 120 b tips on ELK! Yes, with good results. Seems they penetrate more than should.

Jacket separation would not bother me, as think about it, one is not looking for a picture perfect recovered bullet as their 'endpoint' but rather a fast kill. That it did, so continue to be happy and unless they quit working, keep using them is my thought.

That 140 b tip deer shot w/my TCU would I believe died faster had I been using faster 120s...cannot recall if they were out then, but the solid base were and it was my pick for longer shots. Never had a chance to give them a work out but confident they'd worked well. Believe they would have been a tad tougher than the Hornady SPs but still offered good expansion.

Agree on that Larry, many bullets fail to expand enough on deer, then the tracking starts.....

Thanks guys. After I slept on this over night I have reafirmed my thinking and yes the bullet did exactly what it needed to do. After all the bullet had penetrated the vitals and exited the chest cavity.

My nephew has decided to use my 14" 7-30 Waters with the same ammo, so hopefully we'll have another opportunity to see how this bullet performs.

Larry

I've used the 120gr hornady soft point (not the tipped nor the single shot pistol) and the 120gr Nosler solid base flat point.

Both launched at MV of 2,400fps. My son shot a nice fallow buck quartering on at 100yards with the 120gr Hornady. Just under the skin - a mushroom but not much left. I've shot a couple more fallow with it and it worked fine. The 120gr nosler solid base flat point is a GREAT woodland deer bullet at this velocity - great effect and text book mushrooms.

I've also shot the 120gr ballistic tip at 2,800fps - a bit too expansive even for me. Maybe mine are a bad lot but I've had them stay in a 50lb roe deer. I've seen no evidence of anything other than little penetration and massive expansion. I generaly like ballistic tips but not this one.