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Best carbine length varminter?
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Input please...

I'm dreaming of a Contender carbine 18" (maybe up to 20"). I can see it now, except for the caliber. For some reason I just can't get the caliber engraving in focus. I suspect that it's either a 6 TCU or a .223 Ackley Improved. Which would you pick? (I've got both calibers in pistol length barrels, but I want a rifle!) Got a better choice?
 
Posts: 391 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 12 March 2002Reply With Quote
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I'd go with the standard 6mm-.223 (aka 6x45). There's virtually no difference between the performance of it and the 6 TCU, and there's no fireforming necessary with the 6mm-.223. I've had 3 firearms in this caliber, and all have exhibited superb accuracy. My current is a 15" full bull VVCG Contender barrel, and it is amazingly accurate with just about any load I feed it. And while I don't want to get into a stability argument, if you plan on shooting 80 to 85 grainers, you do need a 1:10, despite what one of the custom companies may tell you (some folks just look at the mathematical figures and fail to take into account all factors which determine a proper twist rate, and only real world experience can bear this out).

A 1:13 or 14 may be just fine at .243 velocity levels, but you have to consider the working velocity of the round as well. Within reason, you can't overstabilize a bullet -- but you certainly CAN understabilize one.

[ 10-29-2002, 23:30: Message edited by: Bobby Tomek ]
 
Posts: 9443 | Location: Shiner TX USA | Registered: 19 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Since you alrightly have the 6TCU I would stick to it. Some other cal. would come to mind but that would take a encore action. If you go with a 18 to 20 inch barrel made it heavy enough to sit well for offhand shooting. I like about a 22 inch barrel but then again I shoot the encore. I just did this (at least I ordered it) with the encore. I went heavy sporter 22" 250 savage. If you are hunting with this new setup that 65 grain V-max is pretty effective, I shoot the 6TCU too. I don't think you could ask for a more accurate round then the 6TCU but thats not to say others couldn'y work either. Decisions, decisions!!!
 
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Is this really all the opinions out there??? I've been on this board for several months and found all of you to be much more opinionated than this?!?! [Big Grin]

Then again maybe you don't feel my question is worth your time to share your opinion...well I can deal with that too. I guess I'll just wait and see if this thread dies, then I will have my answer. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posts: 391 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 12 March 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by B_Koes:
Input please...

I'm dreaming of a Contender carbine 18" (maybe up to 20"). I can see it now, except for the caliber. For some reason I just can't get the caliber engraving in focus. I suspect that it's either a 6 TCU or a .223 Ackley Improved. Which would you pick? (I've got both calibers in pistol length barrels, but I want a rifle!) Got a better choice?

B_Koes

Howdy! I'd pick neither, but rather go with either a plain .223 Rem chambered by Bellm or someone subscribing to Bellm's methodology, in a 20" barrel, OR I'd go with a 221 Fireball in a 16-18" barrel, again chambered using Bellm's methodology.

Both of the above choices would utilize a heavy contour barrel, and both are mild enough in recoil yet fast enough, to enable very very precise shots at significant Varminting ranges, and .224 caliber bullet selection is vast.

The only reason I can personally see for going with a 6mm [other than basic personal preferance, which is ALWAYS a good enough reason in my book [Big Grin] ]is if Deer or other larger game is in view. Otherwise, the .224 offers an increadible bullet selection, an economy of heavy usage, and factory availability in a pinch [Rem has reintroduced the Fireball in factory ammo] that is simply hard to pass up.
 
Posts: 830 | Location: Virginia, USA | Registered: 08 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Well so much for the input. I went with personal preference (thanks Sean [Wink] ) and chose a 20" chambered for the .223 Ackley Improved. While your suggestions were all reasonable and valid, I thought that the .223AI would suit my needs. Let me explain...

I live in wind swept Kansas so I preferred to stay away from .224" bullets in the 40-55gr range because they are more affected by the wind than either the heavy .224" bullets (69-80gr) or .243" bullets. I went with the heavy .22's because of their BC's and therefore better wind bucking abilities. The other reason for picking the .223AI over the 6TCU is the fact that I have better dies for it. I was able to get my hands on a set of Redding's competition dies for this caliber while they are not readily available for the 6TCU. That's really about the only reason for picking .223AI over the 6TCU.

So now I've got a 20" 1:8" twist .223AI coming my way and my .243 may no longer be my favorite long range varmint whacker.
 
Posts: 391 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 12 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Brett, I didn't put anything in to this as I have the old bone stock 14" 6 TCU and Bobby's ole' wore out 6-223 [Wink] and have not made judgement on either. I figure if the XP chamber would go south on me that just a rechaber to 6x47 would fix it, as far as the factory 6 TCU I had thought mabe somthing like a 6x47 improved?

Shoot just get all three and let us know which is best for future reference [Wink] [Razz] .
Jeff
 
Posts: 655 | Location: Kansas US of A | Registered: 03 March 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by B_Koes:
Well so much for the input. I went with personal preference (thanks Sean [Wink] ) and chose a 20" chambered for the .223 Ackley Improved. While your suggestions were all reasonable and valid, I thought that the .223AI would suit my needs. Let me explain...

I live in wind swept Kansas so I preferred to stay away from .224" bullets in the 40-55gr range because they are more affected by the wind than either the heavy .224" bullets (69-80gr) or .243" bullets. I went with the heavy .22's because of their BC's and therefore better wind bucking abilities. The other reason for picking the .223AI over the 6TCU is the fact that I have better dies for it. I was able to get my hands on a set of Redding's competition dies for this caliber while they are not readily available for the 6TCU. That's really about the only reason for picking .223AI over the 6TCU.

So now I've got a 20" 1:8" twist .223AI coming my way and my .243 may no longer be my favorite long range varmint whacker.

For the velocity range I would be shooting from .222 Rem. Mag. Imp. (which you can readily reload for using the .223 Imp. dies, btw), Hart told me to go with the 1-7 twist for the 80 gr. Sierra .224 bullets. For another project using a .22-250 Imp. chamber or "Cheetah" type chamber, they said to use the 1-8" twist. I have yet to put the 1-8" together on a bolt gun for myself, so cannot speak for it, but from the little bit I shot the 1-7" twist barrel at 660 yards last May, it definitely has potential.

You are on track in regard to dies. Most folks have no idea how limiting the dies can be. That is one of my main reasons for focusing on the throat like I do. It does make up a bit for deficiencies in dies, I feel. The tight throat diameter helps get bullets not seated straight in the case started straighter into the rifling, but good conecentric ammo from good dies is a real plus.

Mike
 
Posts: 791 | Location: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: 30 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Mike Bellm:
For the velocity range I would be shooting from .222 Rem. Mag. Imp. (which you can readily reload for using the .223 Imp. dies, btw), Hart told me to go with the 1-7 twist for the 80 gr. Sierra .224 bullets. For another project using a .22-250 Imp. chamber or "Cheetah" type chamber, they said to use the 1-8" twist. I have yet to put the 1-8" together on a bolt gun for myself, so cannot speak for it, but from the little bit I shot the 1-7" twist barrel at 660 yards last May, it definitely has potential.

You are on track in regard to dies. Most folks have no idea how limiting the dies can be. That is one of my main reasons for focusing on the throat like I do. It does make up a bit for deficiencies in dies, I feel. The tight throat diameter helps get bullets not seated straight in the case started straighter into the rifling, but good conecentric ammo from good dies is a real plus.

Mike

Well I hope that the 1:8" twist will handle the 80gr bullets, at least that's what Berger says it sufficient for the 80gr VLD's. Oh well, If I'm stuck having to drop back to 75gr, then it should still perform pretty well. I think the BC on that bullet is still something like .440 so it should handle wind pretty well.

Regarding the use of competition type dies, I am a real convert in this area. After using a "benchrest" type die for my .22 Hornet with that thin little brass, I could really tell a difference when seating the bullets. It takes so much less pressure to start the bullet, not to mention that there is no crunching or scraping like with regular seating dies...even (or should I say especially) when a flat base bullet starts into the case. I figured that the ammo just had to be better. I've been much too cheap to spring for a concentricity indicator so I'll just have to monitor by "feel". Now I've converted nearly all of my seating dies to the competition type seaters. My next project will be to use bushings on all my case necks to allow me to size ONLY the amount that I need. I agree with you completely Mike, dies are not something to be skimped upon.
 
Posts: 391 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 12 March 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jsh:
Brett, I didn't put anything in to this as I have the old bone stock 14" 6 TCU and Bobby's ole' wore out 6-223 [Wink] and have not made judgement on either. I figure if the XP chamber would go south on me that just a rechaber to 6x47 would fix it, as far as the factory 6 TCU I had thought mabe somthing like a 6x47 improved?

Shoot just get all three and let us know which is best for future reference [Wink] [Razz] .
Jeff

My 20" .223AI is a twin to the 15" .223AI that I just bought in my attempt to shoot UASHS this next year. Hopefully I'll be able to tell you that it is the perfect cartridge after I hit more shoot-off chickens that you do! [Wink] [Big Grin] I'm not really going to be nearly as arrogant when it comes time to actually shoot though as that will be my first attempt to shoot while laying down! Heck, I just wanted to play in the same yard as all the "big dogs" who shoot half-size 40's. I'm just hoping to be competitive sometime next year. I couldn't convince anybody else to stand up and shoot those targets so I might as well lay down on my back like the rest of you and knock a few over!
 
Posts: 391 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 12 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Brett, it will be interesting to see how the round works on the half size, as you will basically be shooting the same weight bullet as I am. I don't think you crowd the upper end on velocity but watch the target damage with lighter bullets. I shot somee 55's in the 6 TCU and had to back the load off as it was eating on the chickens.

Is this going to be a U or a UAS gun? Good luck, and keep me informed as to how things are going.
BTW, some where some one was shooting a 22 BR with heavy bullets on full size targets, had to hit the ram in the head as I recall.
Jeff
 
Posts: 655 | Location: Kansas US of A | Registered: 03 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Nah, this will be strictly a half-size barrel. I have another 6.5TCU that would get called out of the bull-pen if I wanted to shoot full size animals. At this point I don't know what I will do, but the half-size game is the only one that looked really challenging to me as I've watched.

I would suspect that we will be getting similar velocities with the similar weight bullets. I might get a few more with the "improved" version, but factor in a higher twist rate and smaller caliber and I think it should even out. The real difference, I think, is in the flight characteristics of the comperable weight bullets. Berger bullets have a .400 BC for their 70gr up to a .489 for the 80gr. That should translate into about 2-3" less of wind drift in a 10mph crosswind. That's not really a big issue until the shootoffs start, then I imagine it could come up big. That may not even be a big thing because you generally gotta hit all 40 targets to get into the shootoffs...so we'll see what happens this next year!
 
Posts: 391 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 12 March 2002Reply With Quote
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